How the heck do I service the divider window (1941 Limited)?

[Matt Harwood]

So I started "de-bugging" my 1941 Limited limousine this afternoon. I really like the car but it has some gremlins, among them a lot of burned out light bulbs and a non-functional divider window. To me, the divider window is one of the best features of a limousine--put the kids in the back, close the window, enjoy the drive. At any rate, mine clicks somewhere within the bulkhead when I hit the switches, but the window doesn't move. I'm hoping that I can get in there and see something obvious going on and get the window working properly again. The previous owner said he had it apart and lubricated it and that it worked when he tried it years ago, but he never used it after that. I suspect that this, like many of the other things he told me about the car, is not true. At any rate, does anyone know how to get into the guts of the thing? Do I remove the front seat? Remove the garnish molding up top? The shop manual has zero info on some of the 90's unique features, including the divider window.

 

And on a related note, does anyone know how to remove the courtesy light bezels and lenses down on the base of the back seat? I think all six bulbs are burned out. I tried pulling and pushing on it with my fingers and got nowhere, and some gentle prying with a screwdriver did nothing before I got worried about doing some damage. I'm guessing this is why the bulbs are all burned out--nobody else knew how to get it apart, either.

 

Here are some photos of the afflicted areas:

 

 

Thanks!

[LAS VEGAS DAVE]

I don't know the answers to your questions but I like your car. Show a few pictures of the outside of the car if you have some. Limo's are not often shown here.

Edited December 24, 2015 by LAS VEGAS DAVE (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

  I envy you, Matt. That is probably my favorite pre-war Buick. If you  [ or I ] were closer ,I would help just to get to.

 

  Ben

[Matt Harwood]

These are the photos from the previous owner (I bought it sight-unseen from out your way, Dave: Dayton, NV). I haven't photographed it myself yet, but we have cleaned it up quite a bit. It needs new exhaust manifolds, which I just acquired, a new exhaust system, and the gauges are all inop save for the speedo (hence the auxiliary gauges under the dash). On the other hand, the radio works! It sounds like a dump truck but otherwise runs quite well, so it's heading into the shop next week to get the manifolds replaced and the front end rebuilt. Then we'll decide whether we're keeping it, because I have to admit, I really do like the big brute.

 

[Grimy]

Suggest you post on the Cadillac forum--I'm sure the access and electrical issues are common to Cadillac division windows of the same period,

[Matt Harwood]

Suggest you post on the Cadillac forum--I'm sure the access and electrical issues are common to Cadillac division windows of the same period,

 

Great idea! Thanks.

[ILIKECARS53]

Matt   I have a 1942 Limited  8 passenger without the division window, so i can't help you there, but I can on the rear seat lights.  You have to lift the back seat up, it just lifts up nothing special. Once it is up you can see the bulbs.

[suchan]

These are the photos from the previous owner (I bought it sight-unseen from out your way, Dave: Dayton, NV). I haven't photographed it myself yet, but we have cleaned it up quite a bit. It needs new exhaust manifolds, which I just acquired, a new exhaust system, and the gauges are all inop save for the speedo (hence the auxiliary gauges under the dash). On the other hand, the radio works! It sounds like a dump truck but otherwise runs quite well, so it's heading into the shop next week to get the manifolds replaced and the front end rebuilt. Then we'll decide whether we're keeping it, because I have to admit, I really do like the big brute.

 

 

We just moved to the Seattle area from Dayton, where we lived for six years. About 400 miles from Dave in Vegas, but the speed limits are high there, and Nevadans tend to think of distances in hours traveled. I recognize the terrain in the previous owner's photos, but never saw the car around town, or at any show. A beautiful car, and  a great buy. Congrats!

[trimacar]

You can probably access the division window by removing the front seat, but by removing I mean both cushion and the entire frame that the backrest is attached to.  Not a big deal, just awkward.

 

Most interior lights of the era had slotted fittings, thus the outer cover/lense had a "T" piece or two cast into the back of it, and the base piece had a slot with an entrance hole at the top of the slot.  Thus, to remove, gently tap the OUTER piece upwards, and it should move upwards and then come out of entrance holes.  Hard to explain but simple once you see it removed.

 

Nice car....

[LAS VEGAS DAVE]

The more stuff you fix the more you become attached to the car. Its a great car and one that is not common, it will be even greater as you fix the little things that don't work at the present, have fun, you're lucky to become its new owner.

[jbbuick22]

Matt,

       I think the division window is a hydraulic system, most cars of this time used hydraulic power windows, seats and even antennas.

    The pump is located under the hood and orig used brake fluid, most get changed to atf.

     The pump relay maybe the clicking you hear.

 

     Merry Christmas,

        John

 

1922 -6-55 Sport Touring

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

Matt,

       I think the division window is a hydraulic system, most cars of this time used hydraulic power windows, seats and even antennas.

    The pump is located under the hood and orig used brake fluid, most get changed to atf.

     The pump relay maybe the clicking you hear.

 

     Merry Christmas,

        John

 

1922 -6-55 Sport Touring

That's what I'm thinking, too

If, the '41 is like the later models.

The pump provides pressure to  a ram raise the window. 

A heavy spring pulls the window back down when a relay opens a valve , releasing pressure on the ram. 

I don't have first hand experience, '55 was the first year for all electric windows

Edited December 26, 2015 by JamesBulldogMiller55Buick (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Definitely electric. I found some additional information from the guys at the Cadillac-LaSalle Club, including a service bulletin for the divider windows on the Series 67 Cadillacs, which are identical to the 90 Series Buick. There's a small electric motor that turns a gear box, which in turn uses pulleys and cables to lift the window. There are also some limit switches and two relays, one up and one down. Since mine clicks when I hit the down button on the switch, I'm assuming the down relay is getting power, but the up relay is not and the motor is not moving. I also learned that access is through the driver's seat but that the panel ahead of the jump seats is removable as well. I'm going to pull the front seat and see what I can see. The car is slated to go into the shop to have the manifolds replaced and maybe the front end rebuilt, so I can at least get a game plan before it goes.

 

Nobody's more curious than I am to see what's in there...

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

I'm keen to learn, too. 

'41 Limited is a cool car

[Bill Stoneberg]

You need to bring this to Allentown in July. Let me know if you need information.

[Matt Harwood]

Woo hoo! It works! I don't know why I didn't see the little access panel down at the base between the jump seats, but the seams on the upholstery were so tight and flush that it was virtually invisible from above. Once I had my head down at floor level, I spotted the seam and pulled it off and there was the whole works. I tweaked around with a few wires to see if anything was loose, and voila! It powered up and down properly. I wish I could claim that I did something brilliant, but it's obvious that someone was in there at some point in the past. There's a new power wire and some pretty hacky-looking wiring work that consists of some electrical tape, and, well, just some electrical tape. The window chatters a bit going up and down as well, so I might see if I can lubricate the tracks somehow, although this access panel doesn't give me any way of reaching those areas. I did pull the front seat just to see what was there, but there's another bulkhead between me and the window itself.

 

My first job is going to be getting all the electrical connections firmed up. My second project is cleaning and lubricating everything--any ideas? I thought I'd hose it down with brake cleaner to dissolve whatever's there (it's obviously pretty grimy), blow it off with air, then load it up with some heavy spray lubricant like the stuff for garage door cables. What would you guys recommend for cleaning and lubricating something like this?

 

 

Also, I pulled the rear seat cushion and got access to the light sockets--thanks for the tip, ILIKECARS53. Sadly, it appears that there's something amiss because none of the light sockets in the interior of the car is getting power. The wiring diagram says there's a 30 amp fuse somewhere, but the wiring doesn't quite look stock. It sure seems like a new wiring harness with fresh cloth wiring, but it doesn't seem to be correctly routed or attached. I'm going to have to chase a lot of wires--have you seen how many lights there are inside one of these things? Very frustrating...

 

Interestingly enough, I discovered that the front seat IS adjustable. Not much, but there's definitely an adjustment mechanism that might add a little legroom up front. I also got the back-up light to work. Turned out to be a bad ground. I suppose I should savor the fact that today's projects were easy. It never really goes that way in the real world...

 

DividerWindowStuff.pdf

[Buicknutty]

 Excellent car, Matt! It looks beautiful! I take it that is/was restored at some point in its' past? A question about the dash though, I see that the front compartment has engine turning, but no woodgrain, though the rear compartment has woodgrain. So do you know if this is the way it was built?

 I'm sure once it is sorted out to your satisfaction, it will be a great to drive.

 

 As an aside, I had to pass on a 90 series sedan, I think would of been a model 91, and yours is a 91L(?), about 7-8 years ago. A solid running car, but rather tired looking. It had been used a prop for filming off and on, and the guy was retiring and sold off several hundred cars, most were pretty pedestrian ones, but a few were special. At the time I had no money for another car, and had not yet finished my '41 coupe, plus no space to put it. Sold for about $5,000 or so at auction. I was afraid to go, in case my emotions got the best of me.

 Looking forward to your progress!

 Keith

[Matt Harwood]

Thanks for the kind words, Keith. The front driver's compartment has definitely been restored, but all the other signs suggest that the rear compartment is original. The woodgraining back there has deteriorated a bit, and it's probably the worst part of the interior. It's passable, but not as nice as everything else and if I keep the car, it'll be near the top of things to do. Up front, all the black leather and vinyl has obviously been replaced, the door panels are new, the dash panels were re-turned, and the plastic steering wheel, and maybe some of the other plastic parts, are also recent. The gauges are in good condition, but none of them except the speedometer work. So odd.

 

As to whether it should have woodgraining up front on the dash, I can't say. Closed '41 Buicks were almost always woodgrained, while the open cars were most often painted body color. But with the limousine in particular, where the driver is the only one who sees the front compartment, I'm not sure. I wouldn't be surprised if the factory painted it black to match the body, but I don't have any proof either way.

 

Painting it body color is often the lazy restorer's way of getting it done, and while I don't see any deliberate "shortcuts" in this car, I am finding some work that wasn't done as carefully as it should have been. For example, I've spent the last two days trying to get the interior lights working. I changed bulbs, checked grounds, chased wires, and nothing happened. I found the 6-pin connector that feeds the courtesy lights under the dash and cleaned it. I traced the wire that is supposed to be feeding it all power, and there were no breaks in it. So why didn't any of the lights work? I don't know; all I know is that while taking things apart and putting them back together under the dash, some loose connection was re-established and sure enough, the rear courtesy lights are all working again. The front ones are still inop, and I'm assuming it's because the wires under the seat feeding the light on the passenger's side of the seat itself have been cut (more lazy-appearing work). I'll reconnect those and see if everything comes back online. It should, but with this car, I can't say for sure. The same was true of the instrument lights, which weren't working until I cleaned up the grounds and tightened the connectors--now they are. I also cleaned the ground and replaced the bulb for the license plate lamp and it's back online. On a car like this, lights make a big difference and I thought it was important to have them all operational. I do need a lens for one of the dome lights in back, which are quite large and unique to the Limited. Sigh...

 

 

I do have to say that I am liking this car a great deal the more time I spend with it. I hadn't planned on keeping it, but I've been casually looking for a "high-speed" Full Classic tour car. I have the opportunity to buy a big time A-list Classic in the spring, but if that falls through, it'll be very tempting to keep this Limited. I also just bought a '41 Cadillac 60S with Hydra-Matic, which is one of my favorites to drive, but now I'm kind of leaning towards the big Buford. Everyone's got a '41 60 Special but you don't see many Limiteds. My wife doesn't like how it looks, though. She thinks it's frumpy and clumsy. I actually think it's the sleekest limo of the '40s, but yeah, I guess from behind it is kind of frumpy.

 

Anyway, I'm working on it to make it either nice for me or nice for the next owner. If I'm happy with it, I guarantee the next guy will be, too. Next week it gets the manifolds fixed and a rebuilt front suspension. If I own it in July, I will most likely bring it to Allentown, as Bill suggested. A road trip like that would be a lot of fun in this big cruiser!

Edited January 2, 2016 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Bill Stoneberg]

Frumpy and clumsy ?  Not words I would use to describe that car.  Its the last of the art deco period type cars that Buick made.

 I sure like the looks of it better then the slab sided cars of the 50's but that is a personal opinion.

[smithbrother]

I to am looking for the large rectangle done light, one of mine is cracked, but still intact.  I have been looking for 40 plus years, I guess NOT IN THE RIGHT PLACES. hehe

 

Dale in Indy  

[Buicknutty]

 Well Matt, I am registered to attend Allentown in July, and it would be neat to see it. Though we will likely be traveling in my '69 Electra, and the '41 Roadmaster Coupe (was on your registry) will stay at home. Personally, I like the looks of the 40 and 41 Limiteds more than the other big cars of that period, but that's just me.

 Keith

[Walt G]

Hi Matt, Here is my 2 cents. The 1941 Cadillac 60 special is a great looking car, but I have never been enthused about the Hydra-Matic from the prewar era.

The 320 cu in straight eight Buicks from the early 1940s are amazing cars. About a decade ago I wanted a GM convertible sedan of the 1936-41 era. Thought a Cadillac would be nice but couldn't afford one; so then always liking the Buick Roadmasters went looking for one of them. I had never owned a Buick from any era before. I have now enjoyed my 1940 Roadmaster model 71-C convertible sedan for over a decade. A 49,000 mile original California car that the engine has never been opened up on; but had all cosmetics done in 1972. Looks good from 15 feet , and Doug Seybold went through it mechanically for me ,( total new wiring, radial tires, etc. ) when I bought it. It is one of the nicest driving cars I have ever owned. 1940 had the single carburation, but the car does not lack for power ! Because of the low miles it has no wear in the top mechanism , doors etc. so body is silent like a 4 dr sedan.

Keep your 41  Limited, when you are riding down the road in it you won't see the frumpy rear end - but most other drivers will as you pass them with ease!

Happy New Year my friend.  Walt G.

[LAS VEGAS DAVE]

I also like your car, it looks great to me. Cadillacs are great but way more common. The Limo is rarely seen. In reality I don't see it passing many cars with ease in todays world, out west the average highway speed is about 75 or 80 mph. Wether it passes anyone or not it will still be a "king of the highway" in my eyes.

Edited January 3, 2016 by LAS VEGAS DAVE (see edit history)

[1967 - 1997 Riviera]

Matt-

 

Where in the world did you locate two sets of exhaust manifolds? Those are hard to find and getting scarcer every day.

 

I'd bet if you turn over enough rocks, you will find the lens for the dome light you are seeking. Remember, you just started looking and haven't been searching for years.

 

If you do keep this car and drive it to Allentown you will get a lot of "thumbs up!" on the way. Tell your wife it will be good for her ego.

[LAS VEGAS DAVE]

There is a "36 to 38 Buick dome light assembly" for sale on ebay that has a lens that might fit, I think he wants 45 dollars.

[West Peterson]

Matt

Nice car. I'd be surprised if you weren't aware that Doug Seybold has a '41 90L touring sedan. Same car without the division window.

[West Peterson]

Matt

Here are a couple of photos taken by a friend of an all-original 1942 Limousine. I'd have to guess that if it was woodgrained in 1942, it would have also been woodgrained in 1941.

Packard limousines of the same period also used woodgraining. The only time it would have been painted black is if it had been modified to be a town car.

[Matt Harwood]

Thanks, West. Interesting that the limo in your photos has a cloth front seat. It appears to be the same blue/tan interior I have in back, which I think is quite attractive, but my front seat is black leather. I'll presume that it should be woodgrained and they didn't bother doing it when the front compartment was restored, but I don't think it'll be very high on my to-do list for this particular car. It's a shame, because they seem to have spent a lot of money on the rest of the interior, including all the plastic pieces.

 

I'm shooting this car for a magazine article, so I'll have a lot more photos in the next few days and I'll post some here so you can all see its current state. I know a car talks to me when I continually turn to admire it as I walk away and stop to look at it when I pass it in the showroom, and I do that with this Limited. My wife hates when I do that because she knows what I'm thinking...

[West Peterson]

I hadn't noticed the cloth front seat. Very interesting. It is definitely a limousine, tho, with the division window. Interesting thing about the division glass in that car. It's curved. Is the division glass in your car curved?

[Matt Harwood]

Mine is a flat piece of glass, although it's arched at the top to follow the contour of the roof. But it's definitely a flat pane. I can't imagine Buick re-engineering something like that for so few cars, especially since the same mechanism was used in the Cadillac 67 and 75 models, which also had flat glass. I'll take a few photos of the details and post them so you can compare.

[Matt Harwood]

I went out into the shop and took a few photos of the back seat area. The divider window is visible and is definitely flat. This is 100% factory, not modified or customized after it was built. Check out the neat little switch on the arm rest!

 

[Matt Harwood]

Received the attached files today from a friend here on the message board and his friend at the Buick Heritage Alliance. It appears that a black dashboard in the 90L limousine is 100% correct.

 

Big thanks to you two gentlemen for doing this research completely unbidden. Wow!

 

(I'm not mentioning any names so nobody is inundated with requests for free information--they did this out of the goodness of their hearts and I'm grateful)

 

Edited January 28, 2016 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)