A nightmare title problem in Michigan

[Guest flatheadfan]

I have run into a nightmare of a title problem with the State of Michigan. I have contacted the Secretary of State and they say their hands are tied. I am looking for some ideas for a "workaround."

I have a '35 Dodge which has an engine that is not long for this world. It is beyond the rebuild category. I do have the opportunity to get a similar engine that has been recently rebuilt. Now this is where things get nasty. My title does not have the body serial number on it which is on a tag riveted to the door pillar. The title has the engine number (which is different). If I remove the engine I loose the title verification. To get a "new" verification I need to get some paperwork and have the new engine number verified via inspection. I believe the police do the inspection. So far no real problem...

Now the "dark side".....The "new" title I will receive from the State shows the car as being an "assembled car" with no year or manufacturer indicated. In effect it will no long be an antique vehicle nor will be eligible for antique plates. This is bizarre! Again, the SOS say their hands are tied.

Help! I need a workaround so I can have a title that reflects what the car is, a 1935 Dodge NOT an unknown collection of parts. Anyone else have this problem?

Thanks for the help.

Tom

[DAVES89]

Just thinking out loud... Why don't you "sell" the car to a friend out of state that would be able to title it? They could then "sell" it back to you with the "new" engine as a 1935.

Never did this, but am offering an idea...

[Guest ChaplainLar]

I had a similar problem. I bought a car through E-bay (titled in Michigan) I live in Ohio.

Well, the VIN number did NOT match the title given to me. So I could not get plates in Ohio. Had to go back through the Mich. DMV to get correct title. After several phone calls, I got through to a dept. head that was willing to help. After explaining everything, they did a search to see if they had records of either number I had being stolen. No, so they re-issued the title with the correct number.

You need to call the DMV and ask them to re-issue your title ---give them the title numbers for a '35 dodge (150,000 thru 200,000 or whatever they are) and say someone mis-titled it along the way & you would like to get it corrected. Because your Dodge title number is impossible.

I think you should work on this BEFORE you remove the engine

[CarlLaFong]

As always, what works in OH may not work in MI. Every state is different. Some are so draconian and backwards that getting a title is next to impossible.

I never did understand the mindset of the various states and their DMVs. Here is a guy who has his checkbook out and is ready to sign. He has a 50 to 100 year old vehicle that any reasonable person would realize is not stolen. He is willing to write a check every year, payable to the underfunded state. He is willing to bolster the local economy by purchasing insurance, gas, oil etc., and all the bureaucratic drones can say is, "No, we're sorry, we don't want your money." I know that the few bucks we're talking about won't reverse our current economic mess, but it couldn't hurt, either

[TexRiv_63]

Tom,

Do I understand correctly that you already have a title to this car that uses the engine number? Or are you in the process of buying the car? If you already own it and did not identify yourself to the DMV, go ahead and switch engines but keep the old engine and take a photo of the engine number to keep in the car. The chances of anyone actually checking are slim to none and the only time it would be an issue is when you sell the car, you would have to give the buyer the correct block to match the title.

[Guest flatheadfan]

Don-

Yup, I have the title. As for keeping the old engine, for me, this is a "non-starter." My garage is so loaded with car parts (aka-"junk") that I am not anxious to add a derelict engine to the pile. I guess what I would like to do is basically switch the engine I.D. on the title to the serial number on the car. This switch would make life much simpler when the time comes to sell it. For reasons I don't understand, the DMV is really being stubborn about this. It is not a stolen car or carrying a lien. I just don't get it.......

Tom

[JFranklin]

Some states issue a vin sticker that is applied to the firewall or other spot. I was given one that matched the title and engine number in the car, and now I can remove the existing engine and still have vin verification. See if your state can do this. Even a different vin # would suffice.

[lowkey]

If all else fails strip the engine down and carry it in the trunk.

[Harold]

Later Chrysler products have the original engine number stamped into the frame rail near the left rear wheel. This is definitely the case with postwar cars. If you can find that number on your car, you might be good to go.

Harold

[Layden B]

Here in California when registering a Model T Ford they will not accept the engine number even though that is what was used originally. I always suggest to the Model T guys to get a reproduction blank dash tag and stamp their engine number on it, then to be sure, stamp the engine number into the frame.

The DMV bureaucrats are looking for a VIN number on the body or frame and they find it. They are clueless as to what was going on 75+ years ago.

I suggest you stamp your engine number in the location Harold suggested and to make it look official do it like this *123456*. You can make the * with 3 strokes of a chisel.

You will not have to do anything about the title and you can do anything you want about the engine.

[MCHinson]

I did a search for the Michigan State Law on this subject. It appears that you should be able to have the DMV personnel read the following law that I found in a search of the Michigan Legislature Website:

Michigan Legislature - Section 257.231

257.231 Registration of replacement engines.

Sec. 231.

The secretary of state is authorized to adopt and enforce such registration rules and regulations as may be deemed necessary and compatible with the public interest with respect to the change or substitution of 1 engine in place of another in any motor vehicle.

[John_Maine]

I'm glad I live in a state that doesn't require titles for vehicles more than 15 years old. All we need is a bill of sale and a copy of the prior registration to register an antique car.

[Harold]

I suggest you stamp your engine number in the location Harold suggested and to make it look official do it like this *123456*. You can make the * with 3 strokes of a chisel.

I wouldn't try a do-it-yourself approach with a vehicle ID number. All motor vehicles have hidden numbers, and the various DMV's and police agencies are well aware of where they are located, no matter how old the vehicle is. If an inspection reveals any hanky-panky, you can be in big trouble.

[Guest Skyking]

I'm glad I live in a state that doesn't require titles for vehicles more than 15 years old. All we need is a bill of sale and a copy of the prior registration to register an antique car.

In RI ours is 10 years old.............I think every state should do this. When I bought my last old car, it came out of Connecticut. The previous owner was so pleased that RI was a title-less state, that he knocked some $$$$ off the sale. He thought he was going to spend all day at his DMV.

[Guest Xprefix28truck]

I wouldn't try a do-it-yourself approach with a vehicle ID number. All motor vehicles have hidden numbers, and the various DMV's and police agencies are well aware of where they are located, no matter how old the vehicle is. If an inspection reveals any hanky-panky, you can be in big trouble.

You wont find any of the "hidden numbers" on a 1935 auto......

[Dave Mellor NJ]

I might be giving bad advice,but it's possible to fill in the old number with filler or weld,grind it down smooth and restamp the old number.I know some model A rebuilders do this as a matter of course but they grind the boss down below the original numbers and that looks suspicious

[Scotts_DG8]

I too live here in Michigan and I happen to find this topic of special interest as my '31 Dodge uses the engine number as the vehicle number on the title as opposed to the actual serial number off the car. I've contemplated having my title changed to reflect the actual serial number and appreicate the insite. But I have to say that even after reading the posts so far I still have a belief that the number can be changed, maybe because I already had a serial number corrected on a Michigan title. I stopped into the DMV for the other can and in short order they gave me a form to fill out and have a local police officer fill in the appropriate area. I call the local police station and an officer was out and noted the request, checked things out and filled in his portion of the paperwork, I took the form back to the DMV and the title was processed correctly. I have to believe that I could do the same with the '31, with no issues. Again, just my opinion. Scott...

[mrspeedyt]

in arizona, when i bought my '41 de soto it was titled with the engine number. after a while i noticed that the insurance policy used the actual vin on the body identification tag. i asked the motor vehicle dept. to change the title and they inspected the motor number and the body identification number tag and said 'no problem' and changed the title to the vin. cost $4.00. same thing happened again with my '23 buick. easy to correct in az.

[Guest elmo39]

flatheadfan , just as a matter of interest , what do you intend to relace the dodge engine with .

[CarlLaFong]

Here in California when registering a Model T Ford they will not accept the engine number even though that is what was used originally.

Hmm, my Model "T" was registered using the engine number in CA

[rocketraider]

I do have the opportunity to get a similar engine that has been recently rebuilt.

I think we're safe that this one won't get a 350 GM crate engine...

Good to see discussion on this type thing. In case I ever get a prewar car, I'll have some idea what to expect.

[Guest flatheadfan]

Thanks guys for the suggestions. After looking things over I might go with Layden B's suggestion. It seems the simplest.

Tom

[MCHinson]

flatheadfan,

Even if you stamp the original serial number in the frame, you might still want to try stopping by your local Department of Motor Vehicles Office (or whatever they call in in your state) and ask about updating the title to show a replacement engine number. Your state law specifically directes that this be made available to residents of your state, as do all states that I am aware of.

I think you just spoke to someone who did not know what they were talking about. That is a risk of calling a government office. Sometimes you reach someone who does not know what they are talking about and they just want to get you off the phone so that they can go back to whatever they were doing before you called, or answer the next ringing telephone.

[Larry Schramm]

This is an easy item to fix and not a nightmare. I live in Michigan and had the same issue with one of my vehicles that was titled to the engine and not the chassis. All you need to do is go to the Secretary of State office and request the form for an inspection by a police officer. I called the sheriff's dept and they sent out a deputy to look at the vehicle. I showed him the engine number on the current title annd the chassis number that I needed to have the title changed to. 10 minutes of an inspection and $15.00 for the title fee and issue(not a problem) solved.

pm me if you need the form number and I will dig it out.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I remember "back in the day" if we bought an engine from the salvage yard, or installed a rebuilt one from a rebuilder, we simply ground off the # and restamped the one we wanted.

Proper?? I don't know, but that is the way it was done.

Ben

[Larry Schramm]

Here is the information on the inspection.

The Michigan form that you need to ask for from the Secretary of State is "Vehicle Number and on-road equipment inspection" It is form TR-54. You will only need to fill out Part 1

Here is the link to the Michigan form.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/TR-54_38480_7.pdf

Edited August 6, 2010 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[bhclark]

I have a similar problem. My '22 model T was "rebuilt" in 2002.

Even though it has a clear 1922 era engine number clearly visible, the state inspected it, titled it as an "assembled" vehicle and labeled it a 2002 model making it ineligible for historic/antique plates.

I live in Ohio and would appreciate any insight on how to get the title back to a 1922 title. The DMV said their hands were tied, but I usually know more than they do and have to walk them through how to register model year plates.

I'm assuming the original title was lost?