The Modern Car Collector vs. the Old Thinking

[Guest BJM]

I am looking for comments.

I am 46, have a b-r-o-a-d interest in the old car hobby. I try to restore cars from the ground up because I thought I would enjoy the process. Occasionally I buy a driver, enjoy it for awhile and sell it.

I am one of those that is fascinated by the site mash website which pulls ebay, Craigs List and some other sites into one easy to read website in searches for interesting cars for sale.

I am also disillusioned (see age) that I will probably never afford a collection of cars some of which might cost $100,000 to restore and even $5000 to $10,000 to buy in "project" shape.

Wouldn't we all love to own the cars at the top of our wish lists.

But, a loely 76 Datsun 280Z got me wondering. Then, using the site mash, I found a bunch of cars that - in adulthood - from the mid 80's on - I lusted after.

One I bought - a 1988 Buick Lesabre T Type for $300.00 and one night on a site mash search I looked up such cars as the Buick Reatta (1988 to 1991), the last generation Buick Riviera (1995 to 1999) Datsun Z cars, the Ford Thunderbird SC supercharged coupe. I could go on. (Corvettes, some Mustangs, Camaros) How about the last gen Cadillac Eldorados, now extinct - or the Cadillac Allantes?

How about the less obvious - the last 2 generations of Toyota Supra were great sports coupes, the little Toyota MR2 2 seaters, Pontiac Fiero GT's - virtually every make had a flagship car that sold for thousands more then my budget at the time that are now affordable.

The Porsche's of the 1980's to early 90's are pennies on the dollar in some cases.

I could assemble a collection of 5 to 10 cars from the period of time when I wanted these cars new and clean them up, stockpile some parts, restore or replace as needed but not go crazy and - my question is ?

1. Is this where the hobby might be, should be ? headed in order to grow it and make it relevant to those folks who don't have or can not afford the much older cars of their interest?

2. As mentioned, I'm 46 - is this method essentially what our 70-80 year old members did years ago anyway?

I am pretty sure I could resist wanting to "over" drive the cars, making sure I collected them for posterity and shows. I understand they would not hold the same cache of showing up in a 'Vette or muscle car, fifties cruiser or nice older car. They might not draw the admiring glances but in their own right they were the best of the best of their period and were built in a renaisseince of sorts.

Here is what I was thinking to add to my collection

1985 Porsche 928 - flagship car or the line, new they sold for $60,000 dollars. Nice, sub 100,000 enthusiast owned cars can be had for under $10,000 easy.

1997 Buick Riviera. - last clean sheet designed 2 door sport coupe, last Riviera from Buick. Can get one for $3500 any day of the week, or go up to $5000 for an easy under 100,000 mile car.

1994 Thunderbird SC Coupe. A Thunderbird that was over engineered, stylish, fast and luxury coupe comfortable.

and many many more....

Or stay with the older cars for obvious reasons. Like I said, a thoughtful topic with no right or wrong answers.

[1937hd45]

Your time and your money, if the above cars make you happy go for it. I'm days away from 59 and still want the cars I wanted when I was 10 years old. T head MERCER, Thomas Flyer, and some INDY cars, ALL Pre WWII stuff. Unless PowerBall hits I'll never own them, but I can dream. Yes I'll be walking past the cars you collect, but you are one less guy bidding on stuff I want. Just don't try to kick the "Old Farts' out of the hobby they started.

[Dave@Moon]

1. Is this where the hobby might be, should be ? headed in order to grow it and make it relevant to those folks who don't have or can not afford the much older cars of their interest?

2. As mentioned, I'm 46 - is this method essentially what our 70-80 year old members did years ago anyway?

I wouldn't pu too much stock in what path older members took to this hobby. The situation is very different today. 30 years ago new cars were generally considered inferior to the old ones they were replacing, and became valued much sooner. (The Studebaker Avanti appeared on the cover of Hemmings' Special Interest Autos magazine when it was only 7 years old, and Camaro restoration guides were being published before the car was on the road 10 years.) Also, unlike today, there was never any question 30 years ago that fuel and materials needed to restore and run old cars would become unavailable.

On the first count it's been at least 20 years since cars were at their collective worst (in quality and design). While there is still a hangover of disdain for the post-1970 era cars, for the post 1990 cars that situation has begun to lift.

Secondly, today we have to deal with the looming factor of changes that were never dealt with in the past. The fuels that can be used to run a carburated car will almost certainly not be available in pump gas form too much longer, Probably no more than 10 or 15 years. At that point "pump gas" will probably be at least 20% ethanol, likely more. It will be difficult at that point to keep a carburated car on the road regularly.

However fuel-injected cars can be modified to run on almost anything up to E85 (85% ethanol). At the point where "real" gasoline becomes difficult to find, I expect the current dirth of interest in more recent cars to vanish. When you can no longer effortlessly tour the countryside in a 1969 Corvette, a 1991 Corvette starts to look a lot better.

Now, accurate restoration of such cars is virtually impossible. The wiring harness, electronic equipment, proper markings/decals/labels/etc., etc. present complexities that no '57 Chevy can approach. However from the perspective of a touring participant, the cars of the more recent era provide a refuge that will no doubt affect their value and collective interest.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Dave@Moon (see edit history)

[alsancle]

If the cars from the 80s give you as much joy as earlier ones then have at it. The only thing I would be wary of is the quantity over quality. Cars require a lot of care and feeding, even when not driven so you could be overwhelmed keeping your fleet stored and maintained properly.

[1937hd45]

When cars of the 1980's and 1990's were new in the showroom nobody dreamed of working on then at home. What changed to allow that to happen now?

[Guest BJM]

When cars of the 1980's and 1990's were new in the showroom nobody dreamed of working on then at home. What changed to allow that to happen now?

There are some complex things I can't do in my garage. But the idea is to buy a nicely maintained used car and go through it - sort of benchmarking it. Replace all the fluids, tires, brakes over a period of time. Then don't drive it like a used car - show it, pleasure drives, enjoy it as you would a 1941 Buick or Chrysler.

When I go back in time, I too look for cars I could not afford new - I've owned Cadillacs, Chryslers, nicer Buicks. So these are the same, just newer versions.

I think a new Eldorado around year 2000 was a $45,000 car. You can get one for $6,000 now. They have issues like older cars, but once resolved - and used as a "collector" car - a 46 year old could own it for 30 plus years.

There is a lot of value in considering the 'modern collectible car' right now

[LINC400]

I work full time and have a busy schedule. If I bought a car that needed a full restoration, it would never get done. So I buy a car that is in decent driveable condition. Washing it and keeping it maintained take up enough time. I'd rather be driving it to shows and events.

However, when I buy a car, I buy one that I plan to keep for years. No thoughts of flipping it or moving on to something else after a while.

Aside from muscle cars, 1970's cars still get very little respect even though the newest ones are now 29 years old. Cars from the 1950's got attention in the 1970's when they were only 20 years old. IMO the 1970's were the last "real cars" before downsizing, bean counters, etc. So if those do not command much respect or dollars, I don't see cars of the 1980's or 1990's suddenly becoming desireable in 10 or so years. The Riviera and Thunderbird you mention are among the last of that type of vehicle offered. But I doubt anyone will even notice that.

Most people have a special fondness for cars they grew up with. However, cars are not like they were years ago. Now they are mostly just appliances for transportation. Most young people are more interested in video games, computers, cell phones, etc. Cars are generally at the bottom of the list. Those that do have any interest in them simply add some bolt on bling. But the car itself is not that special. They would happily trade it for the next new model and just bolt more bling on that one. I really don't see anyone having sentimental feelings about a minivan, SUV, or Hond Accord the way old timers remember their or their parents 1957 Chevy or 1955 Ford.

If you like the cars of the 1980's and 1990's, then buy them. But I would not stockpile them expecting them to go up in value. Also they are cheap enough that I would not buy anything needing work. They are way more complicated than the old ones, and you could probably buy 3 of them for what it would cost to restore one.

[LINC400]

I think a new Eldorado around year 2000 was a $45,000 car. You can get one for $6,000 now. They have issues like older cars, but once resolved - and used as a "collector" car - a 46 year old could own it for 30 plus years.

I'm not so sure about that. My friend has a 1991 Cadillac Brougham that is treated as a collector vehicle. It has no air conditioning because the part needed is no longer made, no one has one in stock, and several pulled from junkyard cars don't work.

My Buick and Lincoln have things that don't work because parts/ computer chips are not available. Fortunately the a/c on the Cadillac is the most inconvenient item. But it could just as easily be computer parts that keep the car from even running. In the future, I predict there will be even fewer parts available not more. Maybe years from now, someone will make repro parts for Corvettes and Mustangs. But I doubt anyone will be reproducing Eldorado and Brougham parts. There just isn't the market to justify it.

[earl e rizer]

That's funny. I have a 86 Porsche 928s, Sold my 96 Riviera about 2 years ago and still miss it as it was great running and looking car. Also I had a 91 T-Bird SC about 5 years ago! Good choice of cars you picked and I agree that they will all be collectible someday.

I was one of the guys back in the 70's who thought 60's &70's cars like Mustang and Challengers would never be worth saving as there were so many of them around.

[keiser31]

That's funny. I have a 86 Porsche 928s, Sold my 96 Riviera about 2 years ago and still miss it as it was great running and looking car. Also I had a 91 T-Bird SC about 5 years ago! Good choice of cars you picked and I agree that they will all be collectible someday.

I was one of the guys back in the 70's who thought 60's &70's cars like Mustang and Challengers would never be worth saving as there were so many of them around.

Yep....I had a 1968 Plymouth Roadrunner that I sold to a friend for $1.00. It had a cracked block from the harsh Michigan winters and I NEVER EVER thought that anyone would restore those cars. OOOOPS!! Luckily, I kept my first car.

[Packard8]

One big obstacle to future restoration of modern (mid 70's and up) cars is the extensive use of plastics. Compare a 1995 Buick (or whatever) with a 1955 or 1965.....most of the interior parts on older cars are metal or fabric. I doubt that in the future you will be able to purchase let's say, a plastic door handle or armrest for a 1990's car, whereas the metal handle on a '55 Roadmaster should last until the next ice age.

Another big hurdle is the computerized engine management. Most of us can probably fiddle with a Carter, Rochester or Holley carb and get the car to run, but I'd be hard pressed to repair an ECM printed circut board 20 years from now.

There are a lot of neat cars at bargain prices...my daily driver is a 1996 Impala SS...last of the GM full size, full frame, V8 RWD cruisers. With the factory Corvette LT1 engine and auto OD tranny it recently got 26 MPG on a 4000 mile trip (in air conditioned, 21 position adjustable seat comfort )

[Rusty_OToole]

A 1985 Porsche 928 is now the same age as a 1935 Packard V12 was in 1960, or a 1914 Stutz Bearcat in 1939.

So yes, that is how the old timers got into the hobby. The difference is people no longer consider you nuts for wasting your time and money on old cars. Well maybe some people.

By far the best way to buy a collector car is to buy the best low mileage example you can find, right when it hits the bottom of the depreciation curve.

It's too late to do this with Mercer Raceabouts, Duesenbergs, and Plymouth Superbirds . But the next generation is up for grabs.

May I recommend the Mercedes SL convertibles from 1972 to 1989 and Rolls Royce from the mid 80s? They great cars, and they are still on the bargain counter.

If you are sorry you missed the chance to buy a Gullwing or Silver Ghost for $5000 in 1972.

PS last May I bought a 1975 Porsche 911 Targa for $2850. So yes there are some deals out there, and in the next few years there will be more than you can count.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[F&J]

I am looking for comments.

I am 46, have a b-r-o-a-d interest in the old car hobby. . Occasionally I buy a driver, enjoy it for awhile and sell it.

I am also disillusioned (see age) that I will probably never afford a collection of cars some of which might cost $100,000 to restore and even $5000 to $10,000 to buy in "project" shape.

Wouldn't we all love to own the cars at the top of our wish lists.

QUOTE]

No offence, but I only copied a few words that you wrote, but these words tell a lot.

I am also near 59 like 37HD. I am sure he would also say it is a short hop from your 46 to our 59

Anyways, Buying/Reselling is good way to work up to a dream car. Having cars that can be sold quickly is a good thing when something finally pops up that you always really wished for.

As far as wanting a "collection", that's a matter of preference. There is nothing wrong with a dozen cars that you "like", even though none of them are your dream car.

However, someday you WILL run across a dream car project, and you certainly could afford that "5,000 to $10,000" price or even higher. And, you can jump on it without worry, knowing you can find the cash, and also knowing that you could resell it if you were forced to in a personal crisis. Those two things will get you a dream car when it crosses your path.

I just found/bought one a year ago. I feel fortunate I own it. I own it because I bought it on the spot without loosing it by overthinking. I was not looking for another when I spotted it. I saw it up high on a flatbed truck at a swap about 100 yards away. I told my son, "now there's MY kind of car". I don't say that very often.

I have more cars and trucks, but that one would certainly go last....and I bought it at age 58! . I say I am done buying keepers, but I will know a true keeper if I run across another one. At my age, I just won't buy a car to keep that does not "knock me over"...but I'd still buy to flip

Don't shortchange your dreams by saying you "can't"

Start your collection, and have a goal of adding just one dream car "someday"...then go from there.

[MCHinson]

BJM,

I'm 49, my first collector car was a rather junky Model A Ford, when I was in my 30's. So, my interest is not just in cars of my youth. I really like cars of the 20's and 30's but I also have some interest in cars of the 60's through the 80's.

I made the mistake many years ago of trading from a 1981 Riviera to a downsized 1986 Riviera. The 1986 Riviera was a nice car but I could not afford to own that car with the computerized Graphic Control Center after the warranty on the car expired. It was replaced too many times under warranty, and at that time the price for the part alone was astronomical.

Over the years, I have bought and sold quite a few cars. I now have a 1929 Model A Ford Phaeton that is appraised at a bit more than I have in it. I also have a 1976 Ford Country Squire Wagon that is now for sale because I need the garage space. I came across a great deal on a wonderful one owner 1984 Buick Riviera that I had to have. I should have sold the Country Squire first, since I can barely fit them all in the garage, but the Riviera was available and the deal was one that I could not resist.

I will probably keep the Model A and the Riviera forever. If somebody comes along and wants to pay crazy money for them, I may sell.... but, other than that, I have no plans to sell either of them.

Buy what you like. Enjoy driving and/or showing them. Don't buy as an investment, but as a hobby. Keep an eye on the values and don't spend more than you can afford to get what you want. It is still possible to work your way up to a nice car by "trading up" over multiple purchases if you are careful.

Sell anything when you decide you no longer want to own it and either need the money or can use the money to buy that next car that you want.

I still have a few cars on my wish list that I hope to one day own. Hopefully, it will work out over time.

[Bob40]

MCHinson hit the nail on the head when he mentioned playing with cars as a hobby rather than a investment.8 times out of 10 if you took the $5K it would take to buy a car for future appreciation value and put it into a CD or other financial system investment the bank route would pay off better taking all related costs(maintenance,storage,etc)into account.Remember how well the "investors" did with the '78 Corvette pace car? Cars with 0 miles selling for less than initial cost.

[Barry Wolk]

There's a good reason that 928 Porsche's are so cheap. They are enormously expensive to repair and are an extremely complicated car. Those are two things that will keep many '80's cars from being collectible.

As a good example, I have a 750iL with a V-12. You would think that it would have retained more of its residual value, yet they can be had for next to nothing. The car has 29 MILES of wiring leading to all kinds of electrical glitches. My electronic instrument panel went out. A reworked part was $1,300. The three onboard computers are $2,800 each. Once the junkyard supply is exhausted for these rare parts, what then?

[Guest abh3usn]

Some of these cars may be cheap now (Porsche 928) however parts will drive you broke. As already stated, the electronics involved (E.C.M.s, fuel management, exc) will hamper restroration.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Rawja
inappropriate political content (see edit history)

[Guest BJM]

There's a good reason that 928 Porsche's are so cheap. They are enormously expensive to repair and are an extremely complicated car. Those are two things that will keep many '80's cars from being collectible.

As a good example, I have a 750iL with a V-12. You would think that it would have retained more of its residual value, yet they can be had for next to nothing. The car has 29 MILES of wiring leading to all kinds of electrical glitches. My electronic instrument panel went out. A reworked part was $1,300. The three onboard computers are $2,800 each. Once the junkyard supply is exhausted for these rare parts, what then?

I was hoping for a counterpoint. You are correct Barry (and others). As for the 928's, I worked right next to our Porsche master tech when I was a Mazda master at the branded dealership.

It is true what you say, but these are still flagship cars. Where else is someone of moderate middle income, family first status going to be able to get what was a $65,000 car - with all the driving joy that implies - for $7500?

The 928's are expensive to repair but are reliable from a computer and drivetrain perspective. Get one into the late 80's or 90's.

I left a lot of Jaguars off the list. And these are reported as problematic but again, XK8's which replace dthe XJ12's - you can get for $5,000 to $12,000 when new they were $70,000 cars.

Plus, the 928 is supported by one dedicated business, as I am sure Jag's are. And BMW's. BMW's the Lexus 2 doors of 10 years ago, again - all relative bargains.

The ability to work on my 72 Buick Centurion is nice, I agree. But my drivetrain (engine/trans) rebuild costs will run into the $8000 range alone. Not to mention body and upholstery. I know, I know - I'll be upside down. For the same $20,000 I'll spend on this Centurion - a personal favorite not a highly collectible choice - could buy 3-4 cars of the modern ilk, all with milegae well under 100,000 and you simply exercise them, replace worn parts before getting stranded - be proactive.

Instead of money spent for full-on restorations or setting money aside for 10 years to buy a special car, driverless for those 10 years - budget money for major repairs.

For the BMW, do the research on what parts commonly fail, and buy those parts out of dealer inventory now. Slowly, not all at once. Might not need them - but as LINC400 point sout - you are buying for keeps because the car truly moves you as an older car does - then it's money ahead - you aren't flipping it.

[Guest BJM]

One big obstacle to future restoration of modern (mid 70's and up) cars is the extensive use of plastics.

Good point. I was a Mazda mechanic and when a car from 10 years prior came in, the worst angst for me was removal of anything hard plastic. Crack!

[Guest BJM]

MCHinson hit the nail on the head when he mentioned playing with cars as a hobby rather than a investment

Thankfully all of us on here are in it for love. BUT, that is relevant and interesting that you point this out. IF a "modern car" collector buys 3-4 cars he is doing so out of love for that car and the driving joy it would deliver.

It's kind of a counter move to the idea that these cars are investment first pleasure 2nd purchases. Nope. Not to say that if you maintain them now and enjoy the heck out of them for 20 + years, your heirs or yourself won't get some money out of them in 2030 (oh it hurts to even write that) - I'd like to think our world would appreciate the best cars our manufacturers built in a given period.

[Guest BJM]

BJM,

I'm 49, my first collector car was a rather junky Model A Ford, when I was in my 30's. So, my interest is not just in cars of my youth. I really like cars of the 20's and 30's but I also have some interest in cars of the 60's through the 80's.

Over the years, I have bought and sold quite a few cars. I now have a 1929 Model A Ford Phaeton that is appraised at a bit more than I have in it. I also have a 1976 Ford Country Squire Wagon that is now for sale because I need the garage space. I came across a great deal on a wonderful one owner 1984 Buick Riviera that I had to have. I should have sold the Country Squire first, since I can barely fit them all in the garage, but the Riviera was available and the deal was one that I could not resist.

I will probably keep the Model A and the Riviera forever. If somebody comes along and wants to pay crazy money for them, I may sell.... but, other than that, I have no plans to sell either of them.

Buy what you like. Enjoy driving and/or showing them. Don't buy as an investment, but as a hobby. Keep an eye on the values and don't spend more than you can afford to get what you want. It is still possible to work your way up to a nice car by "trading up" over multiple purchases if you are careful.

/QUOTE]

You and I are similar animals. Those 79-85 Rivieras represent some nice values and fit into this conversation. You can get a nice under 100,000 mile Riviera for less then $5,000. I have wanted to pull the trigger on one of these for the longest time. I judged this class at the BCA National one year.

It's not really peer pressure that kept me from not buying, it was this other thing you mention - some other older car (project) would come along. Then it was a matter of measurement of desire and the newer car lost out. That's why I don't have a Reatta or a last gen Riviera now.

Because I'm like, ahh, they will be around at this price forever! Well maybe not. Buy low for sure.

That's part of my dilemma - I can't have the older cars and the newer ones. The older ones probably for what I can afford - I need to buy non running projects and put 'sweat equity' into them. Or, buy one newer car per year over the next 4 years and be done with it.

eerrrrr :mad:

[Guest BJM]

May I recommend the Mercedes SL convertibles from 1972 to 1989 and Rolls Royce from the mid 80s? They great cars, and they are still on the bargain counter.

PS last May I bought a 1975 Porsche 911 Targa for $2850. So yes there are some deals out there, and in the next few years there will be more than you can count.

There are a lot of Mercedes bargains out these. That's why I didn't list all the possibilities in my initial post. The site mash tool is ideal for this - because you can specify a car and get a national persepctive of the values out there.

Mercedes are built like a bank vault, have nice styling, good german handling, are convertibles (always a plus) and Mercedes supports it's older cars with new parts. Every town has one of those "import specialty" shops to work on them and Beemers and Audis etc.

[Guest BJM]

Just don't try to kick the "Old Farts' out of the hobby they started.

No way. The great part about a club like the AACA is the opportunity to live vicariously through the other cars at a show. I just wish more rides would be provided. Maybe not directly at the show, but I would ove to be that Dennis Gage guy where you get paid to ride or drive these cars.

[Guest BJM]

If the cars from the 80s give you as much joy as earlier ones then have at it. The only thing I would be wary of is the quantity over quality. Cars require a lot of care and feeding, even when not driven so you could be overwhelmed keeping your fleet stored and maintained properly.

Good point. Knowing when to say when. I think 4 cars, properly purchased, should cure any bug. Get a high end sports car (the Porsche 928) , a Reatta, a Riviera, and a Jaguar. eeeerrtt. stop. You know you could easily get 10-15 cars out of this time period. Folks pass right over that 1985 to 2000 period but the manufacturers (foreighn or domestic) still put out some cool cars, now at rock bottom prices for drivers.

[Guest BJM]

That's funny. I have a 86 Porsche 928s, Sold my 96 Riviera about 2 years ago and still miss it as it was great running and looking car. Also I had a 91 T-Bird SC about 5 years ago! Good choice of cars you picked and I agree that they will all be collectible someday.

Ha! funny, you and I are brothers from different muthers! I am not sure what you paid for the 928s, but I have two I am looking at for under $10,000 in that late 80's time frame, one has 80,000 original miles and all maintenance records.

It would not be a bad life, to put 8,000 exercise miles per year on 4 cars of this period (2,000 per year per car would not kill them) while letting the shop flush the fluids periodically, make a repair here or there - have time for other hobbies and interests.

But I love the old stuff and I hate seeing non running projects sit there not being restored, moving closer to going back to nature.

[boblichty]

You are getting a lot of good advice here, the best is that you should collect what you enjoy. Cars of the early eighties are already elegible for AACA events, and we are seeing the 80's and early 90's coming on. At 62 they "feel" like used cars to me, but yet I do find some interesting.

I went to Hershey for the first time in 1967 and have only missed three since. My first collector car bought in 1970 was a 1951 Hudson Hornet, which made it 19 years old, way too new to be let in AACA events yet, but I had no doubt it was collectable. I joined the Hudson-Essex-Terraplane Club and found a lot of people who also thought so, not to mention a few still trying to keep the family car running.

Checking the web there is already clubs for Chrysler K cars, Pontiac Trans Ams and more from the eras you talk about and like I said AACA goes back 25 years touching your era already.

While even I have owned cars in my life time I might not ever afford to buy back, the older car hobby can be affordable also. It just takes finding the "right" old car, get with the "right" AACA buddies and you are on your way.

So build what you enjoy, stock pile a couple of those cars you like away and most of all have fun.

[Guest Skyking]

I don't think I would want to own a collector car that I couldn't get running if I were out somewhere and it broke. If I can't check for spark or gas, forget it. The only things I want to do on my modern cars are change the oil and maybe a brake job............that's it. I'll attempt anything on my old cars...............

[Dave@Moon]

Where else is someone of moderate middle income, family first status going to be able to get what was a $65,000 car - with all the driving joy that implies - for $7500?

The caution of "high maintenance costs" should not be taken too lightly, as Barry warns. That $7500 car can wind up having repairs that run into the thousands on an almost routine basis. Parts costs can be exorbitant, and even regular maintenance is very expensive.

For instance an oil change for a Porsche 911 uses nearly an entire case (10.5 qt.), and hopefully you wouldn't be using the cheap stuff. Some Mercedes blower motors cost well over $500.00. And should you break a wheel hitting a curb one day it'll likely be $1000.00 before you're back on the road between the special wheel and the low profile tire.

Sadly the junkyards are full of luxury cars that middle-class buyers thought were used bargains at one time, but couldn't keep on the road. For a hobby car this is likely not a big concern. But if you need the car to get to work on Monday.....

Edited December 12, 2009 by Dave@Moon (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

The reason you could buy Duesenbergs and Packard 12s for $500 in 1951 was that they were too complicated and expensive to repair, you couldn't get parts for them, and they burned gas like crazy.

[Barry Wolk]

Very true, but a Duesenberg is a Tinker-Toy compared to many '80s+ vehicles, in terms of complexity, IMO.

[Rawja]

It is something of a truism that we continue to lust after the cars we lusted after in our late teens and early twenties. As I am 41 I seem to be primarily fixated on mid-eighties to mid nineties cars. In my experience the electronics are extremely reliable and maintenence-free, I mean that's the reason they were put there in the first place, no? The various "black boxes" contain no moving parts, none. A 50 Mfd capacitor is still a 50 Mfd capacitor same today as always. Sure it's a different skill-set but there are plenty of people out there who are comfortable working on circuit boards.

I learned how to rebuild a carburetor, set points and various other tasks when I was young, but I am more comfortable with a car being able to "tell me where it hurts" and never needing the fiddly maintenance of pre-computer cars.

MCHinson's experience with the '86 Riviera touchscreen is not applicable to the later models (or he just had really bad luck). Sure Buick was asking crazy money for them back in the day, but they are readily available today for 150 bucks rebuilt, not that many require it mind you. The ECM which was a thousand dollar item back when my grandma's Caprice was broken into for it is now eighty six bucks at rockauto.

Like I said, the skill-set may have changed, but cars and the "old" cars of today are still collectible, still serviceable and get better every year.

[MCHinson]

Yes, I should have waited for a 1987. I think they got the bugs worked out by that year but that first year (1986) of the Graphic Clntrol Center was a nightmare.

[D Yaros]

The cardinal rule is buy the best car you are able to afford. Restoration costs always exceed expectations, and the purchase price of one that is restored.

Buy what you want, interests you, without thought of selling it later. If you sell it later, and maybe make a buck, that is great, but do not approach the purchase with that mindset.

I have/had the following, all bought without the the intent of a subsequent sale:

1955 Cadilac Coupe de Ville

1962 Oldsmobile Dynamic 88 convertible

1963 Corvair Monza convertible

1985 Buick Riviera convertible

1992 Cadillac Allante convertible

Today, the Corvair and Riviera are owned by someone else. The Riviera was a small convertible for my wife (she does not like driving the huge "lead sleds." It was replaced by the Corvair, which was subsequently replaced by the Allante.

I made money on the sale of the Riviera, and took a huge loss on the Corvair.

I do not see the Allante as a collectible right now, even though only 24,000 were made in the 1987-1993 production run. That is because the one I have, which is in great shape with only 54,000 miles, was acquired in 2009 for $8K. It sold originally for $56,995!

Bottom line buy what you will enjoy, and use.

[Guest BJM]

I do not see the Allante as a collectible right now, even though only 24,000 were made in the 1987-1993 production run. That is because the one I have, which is in great shape with only 54,000 miles, was acquired in 2009 for $8K. It sold originally for $56,995!

Bottom line buy what you will enjoy, and use.

What a sleeper, with issues. Many of these have driven owners nuts but they were custom made in Italy, correct?

I did not expect Reattas and Allantes to stay high relative to initial value but am surprised to see where you can buy one for 10 cents on the dollar.

In our local U Pick It Yard I have never seen an Allante or Reatta. And some other more unique 80's to 90's offerings. I see Eldorados and Sevilles there (last gen) - people are still keeping the Allantes that are out there. In another 5-10 years I suspect there will be some $500 Allantes and these will be restoration projects.

Can they be restored? I think so. As a Mazda mechanic there were several times I took whole cars apart checking for an electrical bug. One time, MAZDA corporate paid me to remove every wiring harness from a Mazda 6 sedan.

As Barry W. noted, I removed 6 seperate wiring harnesses weighing about 30 pounds total. I essentially "performed" a restoration as I checked each item when putting it back together.

Either that or the hobby comes to a screeching halt. Like Rawja, I believe the miscroprocessors were added to make things more reliable. There is some issue that is relevant to generational changes in operating systems. I am speaking of OBD I and OBD II architecture but ultimately they are reliable.

[earl e rizer]

Ha! funny, you and I are brothers from different muthers! I am not sure what you paid for the 928s, but I have two I am looking at for under $10,000 in that late 80's time frame, one has 80,000 original miles and all maintenance records.

It would not be a bad life, to put 8,000 exercise miles per year on 4 cars of this period (2,000 per year per car would not kill them) while letting the shop flush the fluids periodically, make a repair here or there - have time for other hobbies and interests.

But I love the old stuff and I hate seeing non running projects sit there not being restored, moving closer to going back to nature.

As far as a Porsche 928 goes parts are pretty cheap now. There was no internet, with ebay, and dedicated websites when Duesenburgs were just old sophisticated cars. Maintaining and buying car parts is in a different league since the last decade has unfolded. ECM's, plastic parts, etc are plentiful and cheap. Another favorite of mine is the Cadillac Allante. They are dirt cheap right now and lot scarcer than Porsche 928's ever were. There is a whole aftermarket world out there supplying parts GM no longer has and parts from scrapped cars for sale on the internet. I sold my Allante a year and half ago and bought a much nicer, low mileage one for about the same money 2 months ago. I say there are lots of cars from the 80's that are well worth saving. It's an added bonus that they have fuel injection & overdrive along with air conditioning. I was able to buy GM factory diagnostic tools on ebay for $50 for OBD1 cars so that argument goes out the window.

[earl e rizer]

Just to add to my last comment;I am 54 years old. Got my 1st car at 15, a 57 Meteor. I still love 50's cars as well as lots of pre-war,40's,,60's,and 70's cars. I have a 66 Cadillac convertible and a 79 Trans Am currently along with the Porsche 928s and Allante. I love cars of all ages is what I'm trying to say. Along with the OP I think 80's cars are the affordable collector car for enthusiasts to break into the hobby. After all a 1980 car is 30 model years old now.

[LINC400]

As far as a Porsche 928 goes parts are pretty cheap now. There was no internet, with ebay, and dedicated websites when Duesenburgs were just old sophisticated cars. Maintaining and buying car parts is in a different league since the last decade has unfolded. ECM's, plastic parts, etc are plentiful and cheap. Another favorite of mine is the Cadillac Allante. They are dirt cheap right now and lot scarcer than Porsche 928's ever were. There is a whole aftermarket world out there supplying parts GM no longer has and parts from scrapped cars for sale on the internet. I sold my Allante a year and half ago and bought a much nicer, low mileage one for about the same money 2 months ago. I say there are lots of cars from the 80's that are well worth saving. It's an added bonus that they have fuel injection & overdrive along with air conditioning. I was able to buy GM factory diagnostic tools on ebay for $50 for OBD1 cars so that argument goes out the window.

It depends on the car. The internet is a great help, but that still doesn't mean parts are readily available for everything. I spent ten years looking on Ebay, other internet sites, and junkyards looking for replacement armrests for my 1979 Mark V. (they are a structural part of the door, not something that can be redone). When I upgraded the radio with the top of the line '79 stock radio, I spent 1 1/2 years looking for the dash surround and never found it. Fortunately mechanical parts are not as difficult, but that is because they make them for Ford trucks, not for the Lincolns that use the same parts. For Lincoln specific parts, there are almost zero repros.

My '94 Buick cost me over $3000 in the last year. All for stupid things that would have cost way less on a less complicated or would not even exist on a 1950's - 1970's car. It was purchased brand new and meticulously maintained. Even changing the air filter requires tools and unbolting stuff as opposed to a wing screw that can be done with in 2 minutes on a 1950's - '70's car.

I understand you can get just about any repro part for a Corvette. Maybe you can find a lot for an Allante which already has a collector following. But I doubt you will be able to get everything you need if you are restoring something without that kind of collector following. And many of these parts you will not be able to fabricate yourself like the old timers did in the 1960's and 1970's. They just grabbed a piece of metal and cut, hammered into shape, and welded. You can't do that with plastic or computer parts.

Edited December 15, 2009 by LINC400 (see edit history)

[hddennis]

What is this " site mash website"? Can someone post a link?

Howard Dennis

[poci1957]

This is a very big topic, but I guess I can add my own $.02 I think restorations and their possibilities have evolved over the years and from now forward old car owners will have different expectations.

Someone pointed out that in the 1980s cars of the 1960s were sought out because they were considered to be better than the newer models, and I recall that to be true. When I was in high school in 1981-85 car guys wanted ponycars and mid size coupes from 1965-72 or so for regular use and borderline collectability. The cars and parts were everywhere and relatively cheap, they were easily serviced, junkyards had them, etc. They were considered sort of modern classics even then. Rust was a big problem, but a restoration was considered feasible--in 1985 a rough Mustang or Camaro would have been considered worth buying and saving to restore. Today no one would try to restore a rough 1992 ponycar, and a mid-size coupe or anything else would only be saved if it was in good condition not requiring full restoration.

I think the cost of restoration, both in money, time, space, and other resources will limit what people will try to attempt from now on. It is already impractical for a regular car guy living in a regular neighborhood to attempt an ambitious project. In the 1970s a retiree with mechanical aptitude could restore a Model A frame up in his garage, himself, farming out some jobs but able to do it mostly himself. A 1980s or 1990s car will only be a practical collectable if it is clean and rust free, maybe requiring only a paint job or minor parts transplanting. Trim parts will be difficult on some cars. BUT they were a problem then too. Plus, it will be possible to find such cars with little or no rust--very hard with a 1965 Mustang in 1985. There will be fewer cars and probably fewer interested people. You won't get a Grand National Regal owned by a little old lady for $3000 but if you can enjoy, say, a decent original Regal/Cutlass/Grand Prix/Monte Carlo then you can still have old car fun on a budget. But you can't or won't restore one in the garage. Good luck, Todd

[dship]

The website is site mash : : combined classified and auction listings.