32 Nash 1063 convertible sedan

[F&J]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

I fell in love with that Lasalle when the Dragone boys were selling it. 

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

One of my absolute favorite GM bodies of the 30s.

 

The key question would be how much of the car came with the body and how much spare time do you have?

 

If you happen to know who is the present owner of the maroon one, I think I have a new repro chromed upper windshield crosspiece that was supposed to go on that car.  If I do have a spare, I would send it to the current owner at no cost.  I will look today.  We were finding more goodies scattered in many locations long since that car was sold.  That car must have set the record price for a grade 4 example.

 

Driving that car around my lot and lawn, I fell in love too   My son was watching the suspension moving a lot, as it went along a hilly uneven lawn, and he said the car body itself stayed in a perfect plane like a gyroscope.

 

I believe I have "most of the car" except quite a few smaller parts like 3 of the one-year only wheels, unique rear window, the Fleetwood script carpet/door sill plates, etc.etc, and the 3 different rumble step plates.  I made silicone rubber molds of the original steps I took from this car's stash, and then used the originals on the other cars.  I have many multiples of random things for trading.

 

The 34-36 are similar looking, but the 34 uses chromed removable windshield posts, 35/36 were body stampings as part of the cowl, like a 35/36 Ford convert.  I do have the correct ones.

 

Time?  well..., as my Son and my friends know what I can/can't handle, they all feel I would need something "very challenging" to keep me going in old age after the Nash is done.  My Son arrived as I was unloading the LaS, and he said even though I knew the new project car purchase might happen, he said he couldn't believe I was still so excited with the Nash sidemount covers on the day I brought them home the day before.. 

 

 

"One of my absolute favorite GM bodies of the 30s."   I never really studied these cars before from a styling point.  The nose of the car and the front fenders give a feel of "it must be a 1936 auto", yet the rear end view appears to be 37/38 auto styling as far as sheetmetal shapes.   Very advanced design for a 1934 auto in my eye now.

In the above pic you can see the unique rear window frame shape that I am missing, and I lack those chrome tack strips also.  The 3rd step plate is missing here, it belongs on the top of the biplane bumper. I did install it when I found it, and installed better bumper blades.

 

 

They are a very large car, as everyone can see in this last pic.  it used up all the space on the trailer    The low windshield looks sinister in that pic with top up. 

 

As always,...  ....I am missing some of the top iron parts, but I did many photos and measurements from this car when it was here.

 

.

[F&J]

6 hours ago, alsancle said:

how much spare time do you have?

 

I feel like a "one-armed wallpaper installer" this morning...  The new rear end 3.80 gear set just arrived for the Nash...The shim kit and seals coming soon.

 

But I was trying to verify the ID numbers on the 34.  The Catalog of US cars, "big book"  had very misleading info on the serial ID number system.  They said were it was; stamped on the left frame top, and they said it is "same" as the engine number.  I don't know if the orig motor is still available in storage, as there are two laying there that I did see.

 

I found the stamped frame number, but it was not even the same number layout as the book said, as it should be from 2,100,000 start to ending at 2,007,218

 

then I looked in a repro Cadillac master parts book.  It gives locations of "unit numbers" and locations, such as frame, rear axle, etc.  ...only for ordering parts.   My frame number is 21-62xx  which matches the Cad parts book system of less digits, and always a dash after 21.  Now it makes sense; the 21 is the year as well as the unique number assigned for a 34 model "350", which is model code for LaSalle marque.  That frame unit number simplified the longer "serial" number to a 21, then dash - , and then just the running number of cars built so far.   So, I bet the Big Books longer number system, will show up on the correct motor if it's still available.

 

I also lucked out looking for the typical riveted on, Job Number plate.  it was in a box of junk.  It needed to be a 34-168 to be a convertible-only plate, and it is.   

 

p/s, they did a nice job repainting the chassis, seems to be mint, and a very durable gloss black. Well, some dirty work was already done, so it's a better start.

 

 

Lunch break over, back to my day job.

 

 

EDIT:  when I said: "The shim kit and seals coming soon.", I meant next week as the shipper quoted..  But it also just arrived by Mail.  Geez, this week has been pretty darn good, and getting better... 

 

.

Edited May 5, 2017 by F&J (see edit history)

[alsancle]

What I love about that year LaSalle is the port holes, low windshield, long hood and headlight arrangement.   You need to start another build thread for that car.

[F&J]

52 minutes ago, alsancle said:

What I love about that year LaSalle is the port holes, low windshield, long hood and headlight arrangement.   You need to start another build thread for that car.

I thought about that late today.  I'd start it off as good advice tips on why people say you should buy the best condition car you can handle, on whatever income level you are.......  And also what to expect if you buy a total disassembled car from either a "One-Car" former owner, or in my case, a basket from a person who had multiples of the same make, and bought a LOT of wrong parts over the decades. Never bid on what it may be someday....Bid what it is worth in parts only, to be able to "bail out",............. but even then, it takes years of work to sell it off in parts ads...so be aware!

 

Just a taste:  here come the surprises....  The back of the car sits way too high despite the fact I know it's gutted.  I suspected it is NOT on it's original chassis.   (I went through that surprise 45 years ago on mopar roadsters).  I had to go into the service manual to find info on how many leaves difference between sedan, and coupes.  Sure enough, should be 9, but it is 10, so it's a sedan chassis... No other differences so far besides rear springs... 

 

Not surprised it is not the original, as the body "nooks" like around cowl vent channel and trunk lid drain channels, say that the car was junked outside for quite some time, but not like in a swamp for 50 years. But the chassis never needed pit filling, and serial number is still readable.  Can't be from same car.

 

Then I recalled that we hauled a very rusted chassis here 2+ years ago when we needed a donor 34 rear end for the silver coupe.  It had a seized rotted motor/trans/rear, rotted wheels, and rear frame was rotted in half near the springs.  Ok, it counts the correct 9 leaf...but this cannot be the frame from my car.  It's way too rusted to be from my conv.  Got to be a detective at times: 

 

4-? years back, I was hunting at two locations of storage....looking for one missing black conv door,  At the other site, I found 2 black conv doors, with 6-8" rotted off the bottom.  Can't be the missing door(s) for this car, because only one was missing,..... so then I find a rotted rear body skin/quarters of a black conv deep in the piles of stuff.  Yesterday, my friend found the black rotted conv cowl to this 3rd conv. body.  The rotted 9 leaf frame I have out back must be from this swamp car body remains.

 

more detective:  There is a pretty solid bare gutted 4 dr body shell sitting on sawhorses.  Back then, I wondered why this collector would be trying to do a body off resto on that, if he already has a decent survivor 4dr.  Now tonight, I figured he bought that sedan for the nice chassis, but still..., where is my orig frame?  I now think he bought mine as-is, as a package deal with the 4dr shell, and the past owner had already swapped frame, and junked the one from mine.  The last owner of my car would never junk a frame, he saved everything.

 

So, all that to say I won't find the original one, and maybe not find the motor with the number to match my frame number..

 

oh, and I looked at a few leftover grills...the best one does not fit the rad shell, it's later.  And I have two rad shells, and today I now see they are not alike LOL. One is 37+?   He bought everything that looked close.

 

I'll be ok...things will work out

 

.

 

 

 

 

[alsancle]

You have a huge competitive advantage over most of the rest of us.  You have the skills to do most/all the work yourself with a high degree of competency.  So I would never advise anyone to buy that car (Instead follow your advice to by the best you can afford) I think you are in a different situation.  You could put that back together again and ultimately be paying yourself for your time.  It might only work out to 10.00/hour but this is a cool project and it is better than sitting around watching TV.  Not to mention I will find the build thread entertaining, so you have that going for you too.

[F&J]

9 hours ago, alsancle said:

You have the skills to do most/all the work yourself with a high degree of competency. 

 

I worked with a guy years ago who used to mimic an old time mechanic from the deep South.  He would blurt out in Southern accent: "Ain't NO car scare me BOY,.... I fix 'em ALL..."

 

I am daunted by this car, the first time ever that I've met my match....even before the purchase.

 

As you know, I use steel to replace wood framing if possible.  The late owner of this car told me something about 5 years ago that really hit home about wood.  He was chastising me, for brokering his late best friends last estate car, for far too cheap.  ( Mercer09 came here and bought it ).   Then he said, "those Murray bodied Model A sedans are worth a lot more because they are wood framed, that's why they ride so nice and just feel so different".

 

I am terrified of the wood because I am really fussy about door fit/gaps...I know how close the tolerances are when using steel to achieve perfect gaps...but fine tuning the angles and location of wooden door posts is rocket science to me. You can't just cut a tack weld and tilt it more, or move it back a tick...

 

...but what he had said about "wood frame feel", must be part of the reason I liked these heavy, vault-like cars so much.  I just can't put steel in this car body for that reason........  "Hold me, Mommy"   

[alsancle]

Just jump right in.  The water is fine! 

[chistech]

Talk about wood. I grew up in a family butchering business. Some of our older coolers had wood doors. Every time I close a door on my 31' Chevy 4dr, I hear that "special" wood framed door sound! It's a certain, solid sound that ends with a simple "click" of the door latch. You ONLY get that with a wood framed door.

[F&J]

I wanted to make an update here, in case people think I will be abandoning this Nash, due to my recent LaSalle purchase.  I already knew I wanted to get back on the Nash as soon as those LaS parts get tucked away, and then finish two customer jobs. One is 2 hours max, other is a weeks time.

 

Now, I have even more desire to get to the Nash again:

 

Where I left off with the new steering box, is that I lack a 3 spoke black wheel for it.  I was daily searching Ebay for something like it.  I wanted to get away from the large diameter, and the "fat feel" of the rim, of the restored 34 Buick wheel.  That search is very time consuming, as you are sorting through so many listings.  I did see that on at least 3 different possible donors,  I saw they were from the same seller.  He listed two as Sheller brand?  He said one was possibly tractor, others I forget what he said.

 

It was taking too much time each night, and I recalled a mint small black 3 spoke I bought at a swap 6 years ago.  I only spotted it because I stopped to figure out what the heck the wire wheels that he had.  I was still looking for my two missing Nash ones.  I spotted the 5 bolt pattern was so tiny...I measured it to be 4-1.4" which I'd never seen before on any car up to even 1970?

 

He said they are 33 Chevy Mercury-Standard. ....and if you have one, I have this nice steering wheel for $10...It is now gone  

 

Well, I now have another one ..... it was at the place the Lasalles were.  This one has a brand logo on the underside: Sheller.   The only mounting issues are; they use a very tiny diameter taper on the mounting shaft.  Also my Nash needs a light switch lever at the edge of horn button. 

 

I am looking forward to getting it to fit....very soon. It's in nice condition, too.

 

 

.

[keiser31]

1935 Hupmobile steering wheel....

[keiser31]

1932 Hupmobile steering wheel has the perimeter grooves as the wheel in question.

Edited May 13, 2017 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[F&J]

5 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

1932 Hupmobile steering wheel has the perimeter grooves as the wheel in question.

 

Boy....you are good at ID stuff..

 

I found this column right next to a bunch more 33 chevy caps....I just assumed it went to the chevy as it was small.  I did question the spoke style myself, but memory of my 33 wheel is slim.

 

Let me ask another question...  My friend was at this barn 25 years ago and he said to me ;  "he also had a big Hupmobile around 32".  How big or how luxurious are these...meaning, did they also want a new low floor like bigger $$ 32 Nash Series had?  Can you look at the two axles I put in the ID Forum for me?   Was the Hup perhaps one car with the lowered floor?, if so I bet they might be for the same Hup that the column came from....they were right next to this column.

 

[keiser31]

I was thinking Chrysler Airflow on the axles, but I have never seen that offset differential before.

[keiser31]

I remember Dean H and his 1929 Hupmobile thread and remembered seeing that steering wheel on a 1932 Hupp that he purchased.

[F&J]

Worked om my Nash today...I don't know why, but I wanted to..

 

I am stuck on a slight issue just now, so I will wait for a suggestion, or wait till the AM in my thinking chair. 

 

I had mentioned that I'd try to get the horn button off without breaking it, so I can get the wheel off, and then tell if it can fit the taper on the steering shaft in the Nash..

 

What a beautiful design of the button parts:

The whole button retainer with center button unscrewed because I tried that first, as had I wondered if it was threaded, or not.  It was!

Inside.... here are the pieces: The horn contact with wire, etc:

I am taking pics to help me recall the sequence of assembly later.  That last brass washer thing with a lip, fits over the final big nut, it is a light press fit to the nut so it won't rattle?  IDK

 

I did what nobody should do, to try to get the taper to pop off:  I held the entire weight of the box/column up with my arm/elbow horizontal under the outer rim, then smacked the partly loosened nut with a big hammer.  The reason that is a bad idea: ... The tip of the column tube where the threads are is extremely thin.  Blows by force usually compact the threads without you knowing it, or worse yet, a slight bend to one side of the threaded end.  But I know what force I can or cannot do from past adventures. lol

 

So, These old wheels lack the later feature of having two threaded holes in the hub center, to use a puller.  I have made a few mini pullers.  The only one I found, needed the two bolts closer together, so I could have filed the slots deeper with a lot of work, or could use a die grinder with deburring bit.  Those bits leave the tiniest slivers known to man, you will be pulling them out of your hands for days,  So, I decided to use my $75 huge horizontal milling machine, as I have not used it lately, and it's fun.  Takes longer for setup though. 

 

The Connecticut River valley was home to hundreds of war related companies, so plenty of old machines go unwanted, especially  3 Phase, and worse yet, a horizontal miller.  These were for cutting gear teeth, keyways, or slots, etc.  A Bridgeport (Bridgeport CT) is a vertical miller with endless applications.  I make do with this machine with creative fixtures, and some home built tooling.  This cutter below was a $3 slitting blade with a custom arbor I made on my lathe, then cut a keyway slot for the blade to grip, with this machine!  I forget the special one-time job I did with the slitter, but it worked OK for making the slots deeper :

Ok I said I am stuck:  I drilled and tapped two holes in the hub to use the puller.  You put "just enough" tension on the puller screw, but not enough to strip the new holes, then the heaviest hand sledge you can properly-carefully aim, and give a sharp hit.  Then tighten the screw again to repeat.  But still not going, so I MUST stop!  It WILL crush those threads on the tube, so thinking time begins. That is a scrap piece of thick stainless steel to cover the hole in the tube, under the puller screw tip.

 

Some guys on here showed a wooden 2x4 setup under the spokes, but I already have more "solid preload" tension than that wood deal could produce, and it could crack the black hard rubber, or bakelite? spoke material.  This taper angle must be one that is diffult to pop, just like Mopar rear axle tapers are....those are the worst ever, for removal.

 

I could cut the shaft and column off an inch or two under the wheel, then try the hyd press, but the wheel diameter won't fit in the press...

 

Too tired to take pics of the Hupp box...wowee it sure feels sweet!  I gave it a brushing to look for ID; it is another Gemmer!  It would not really be good for my Nash if I had found this box before the one I have now, as I need 6" minimum from box centerline, to the "back" side of pitman arm...(to keep the column lined up to the operator/driver.) It could be somewhat satisfactory, if no other choice could be found..

 

I will take pics of it for you guys, and curiosity will have me pulling it apart to see if it is a roller wheel sector...I am betting it is, but I have been wrong many times before.  It just feels really nice and very, very smooth.

[DavidAU]

Let the tension off the puller, soak the end of the shaft with 50/50 Acetone and ATF for 3 or 4 days and try again. It should come off.

[F&J]

16 minutes ago, DavidAU said:

Let the tension off the puller, soak the end of the shaft with 50/50 Acetone and ATF for 3 or 4 days and try again. It should come off.

Thanks Dave! very much, but I was already typing when your post alert popped up... see below:

 

 

 

I'm not stuck now....my thinking chair never really worked very often in the late day...but, I instantly thought of something... Heat Shrinking, AKA intense heat, rapid water cooling. 

 

I went into the shaft hole with my Ac/ox torch, knowing I need to: "get in, and get out, QUICK"  as to not overheat the black hard rubber part nearest the hub.  I momentarily thought of plugging the inner shaft down deep with a rag stuffed in with a rod, to prevent water from getting in the box...geeez, I planned on taking the box apart anyways!...  and...I want water to flow constant, down the tube and out the horn wire hole at bottom, to get that shaft cooled ASAP.

 

did the above, and ...

 

So then I installed puller again, one good whack....no pop?  Then started to retighten the main screw on puller, and it felt like either the two 1/4-20 bolts were likely pulling out threads.....or...is the wheel is starting to move?

 

Yep, never hit a second time, as I figured if I really was feeling threads pulling, I would need to repair them anyways, so I kept turning..

 

Now I see why it was a bugger, and why no pop like most tapers act when contact lets go.  It is the longest taper I've seen on a wheel, but also a very, very, very shallow angle, which is why it felt like pulling a stuck non tapered king pin out.

 

I need to plan what I should do for the Nash shaft.  The Nash shaft supposedly came from a old hotrod and is why it has a newer fine spline welded on, used on 40s?-up.  So, I already knew I need to cut/splice something on there.  I do not want to ruin this Hupp shaft...because I will show you why I need to save it whole.  I may retaper the Hupp taper hole to a better/easier to remove, taper angle.  I am not sure what I have for tapered reamers, but I can make any angle on a new shaft replacement on my old lathe (that I traded with friend Kenny for 2.5 hour dent fix on his wifeys Durango...I even had the correct color premix pint here.  SHEESH, now you know why I am buried in stuff)

 

Kenny offered my choice of two lathes from a deceased friends estate.  I took the deluxe one that has a "taper attachment" as well as a "gap bed".  The gap is a removable section of the "ways" near the chuck, so you can swing a larger diameter part.  The Taper deal is weird, it makes the tool bit holder follow a preset taper angle, and not travel in a straight line with the ways.

 

That guy was Steve, he lost the family farm to a swindler, who convinced Steve to get a big loan against the old farm his parents left him, for wood processing equipment.  Went bellyup quick, and was forced to have a huge auction of all of the antiques cars, trucks, construction stuff, etc.  I was after a 1914 Indian that he would never show anybody.  He buried under hay to keep anybody from pestering him.  I did not get the Indian; it was used by someone way back, as a power thing with a belt from it's drive, to a grinding wheel!!!  It went stupid money.  So here I am with some cash in pocket, so I waited to see what else I could afford.... he, he, a circa 1902 Loco steam engine, 2 cyl in mint orig cond. $600.

.

 

I took pics also when my burst of enthusiasm allowed me to take the box apart.  Man what a piece of sexy steering gear this one is.. Ross, you lose !  poser...  HA, HA

 

Ed needs to go see if there ever was a big heavy car Gemmer.  Some old rich coot that just wants his classic to finally steer better with his 75 year old weaking arms, might be pretty darn happy. I even found out last year, that there was an early MoToRs truck manual back then.  I bought the first edition on ebay, hoping it had a great amount of specific truck ID's on boxes...but it does not give enough precise Id on which trucks,....  It does give adjustments of all the brands but I sure need to look at it again, now 

 

more post tonight on Gemmer boxes, ...my new love .  Tired from typing one finger, and it will be very detailed on it's new found plusses on this particular one.

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest BillP]

Up to you, but I'd leave that taper as it is. How long has it been together before you came along, and yet it came apart? When you reassemble, apply a bit of heavy grease or anti-seize and be done with it.

You can re-cut the taper, but down at the end of that trail is where projects go to die. You want to drive this thing, don't you?

[F&J]

4 minutes ago, BillP said:

You want to drive this thing, don't you?

Yes sir, I sure do....and I am 65, not 40 when we set things aside for "later"

 

I do really appreciate everyone's comments/statements/opinions.... these all are sorted in the AM thinking chair.  I like the part about keeping the taper, as is, inside the wheel hub, as I simply doubt I have a big enough reamer as the main reason, then adding more time to do so, is the other one that I can think of right now. 

 

I cannot go the quicker route of cutting off the Hupp shaft and welding it on, as is my normal route.  I must keep that nice Hupp box complete for some other car guy.  Making the new end with two machines I do own:  Take round thick wall tube or solid shaft that takes a bit longer, turn OD down, bore ID, taper it, then thread it on lathe.  Go to Horizontal miller for a super easy keyway cut... it's done...

[F&J]

Some info and pics on this apparently "a 32 Hupp" Gemmer box, and if it came with the straight eight engine near where it was laying, it is a 32 Model F, a "medium size" of " big car" around 122" I recall.

 

I still wonder if the Gemmer in my Nash now, really is a "32 Nash FIRST series".  If Nash went all out on the new Second series 32, why would they go from a nice box, to a new supplier with what I now know is a very inferior product?  Makes little sense, unless the Ross sales manager offered a box much cheaper and convinced Charles Nash of it being a good product? 

 

I was told by ebay seller, the chassis it came from was 32 Nash.  Well, it can't be a much bigger better larger series Second Series 32, as it only fits a non boxed frame rail.  So, if it is a 32 Nash box, it has to be the first series with open channel frame rail. However, he said it was an old rod, so maybe it is not Nash?  Guess it does not matter though, as it is great, and I will keep it in that car forever.

 

This new Gemmer looks very similar to mine.  The cool filler plug on mine that is level for filling easier....this one has a huge grease cup with trap door. 

 

Mine may be missing small things that this one has, if it was taken apart years ago?

 

 

Very unusual to see a seal at the end of sector shaft at the pitman arm.  It is cork, with a steel retainer that gets apparently pushed tightly to the box by the pitman.  This not only helps leaks, but it kept the common dirt road dust from eating the outer bushing up. awesome.  I may try to do it to mine.

.

 

 

^^^See the split lock washers are very odd, very wide.  That is due to the oversized holes at that outer housing, to seal them.  The holes have to be bigger, as the box is adjusted by the two castings sliding the sector closer or further from the worm casting.  That tapered cone locks the adjusting cam eccentric nut.  That outer bushing for sector, it seems like no typical wear, but I need to wash it first.

 

 

The innards: Roller wheel design.  Round cork seal between the two case castings.

..

 

 

This closeup below shows a thrust washer.  The normal type of sector-to-worm free play adjustment on newer cars, the sector is shoved deeper into the worm by the typical large slotted screw with a thin locking jamb nut.  On these Gemmers, that type of screw is in the same spot, but it only keeps the sector shaft from moving right or left.  I am sure many antiquers think they are adjusting freeplay...they are not.  They don't understand the two piece castings, and how they slide against eachother to maintain zero freeplay. 

 

That washer sure helps to keep the mating surfaces from wearing each other in this spot.

.

 

more this week as I get to washing it, checking for worm wear at dead center, bushing wear or not, etc.  Will be in my very spare time only.

 

 

.

[F&J]

General info on comparing the Ross to other boxes.  I wish there was a member who had "higher level" steering box design experience such as in the Saginaw Division......before US cars went to rack/pinion.

 

I have serious questions on ratios...vs pitman arm differences in lengths.

 

On perhaps the 3rd or 4th generation of Camaro and Firebird, you had the choice of a faster ratio option.  Same Saginaw 605 P/S box, but the faster one made the car turn sharper with the same, let's say, 1/2 turn of steering wheel.. Ok I get that, because they both used the same pitman arm length, and same spindle arm length as each other.. so I do get how a simple gear ratio change on the worm works to steer faster.

 

But my questions are comparing all these prewar boxes, as to ratios-vs-pitman arm length differences and steering arm length differences, and how it all could possibly be compared as to "Final Leverage", not just the gear ratio.

 

As I found out with early transmissions; these cars had say a 4.70 rear end, so the 1-to-1 third gear ratio would keep the engine rpm in a nice spot for those slower roads.  But if you swap to a 3.08 like the LaSalle coupe was modified in the 1960s, yes, you will be able to cruise at higher speeds.....but now first gear and reverse gear are just geared up way too fast.  That is due to the engineers working with the 4.70.  They had to go higher ratio on the first/reverse, or else the car was painfully too slow in those two gears.

 

My point?  The Ross has the same approximate 4 turns of wheel lock to lock as these other boxes, but the Ross rotates the sector shaft much less degrees than the others.   This is where I get lost on engineering.  If the Ross rotates less degrees, they could make the pitman arm longer, to get enough fore-aft movement of the draglink, to get to have a decent turn radius.  I don't know at all, if fooling with pitman length has any drawbacks as far as ?? Final Effort?? In a way you are changing ratio in a basic idea, meaning the ratio of the steering wheel to ratio of how many degrees the spindles turn.

 

I'll never figure this out without an engineer or one who already studied all this before'

 

I do know why the Ross cannot get the same degrees at sector, I said it before....the peg would run off of the top or bottom of worm.  Their worm is barrel shape.

 

  These other boxes have a hourglass shaped worm....  because the roller wheel swings in the typical sector arc fashion, it can now go further it seems to me.

 

.

[F&J]

lol...a few minutes in thinking chair and I come back to talk to myself...

 

 

Ratios "inside" the box,( like those two Saginaw 605 P/S boxes..)

 

If the Ross and the Gemmer have very close to 4 turns available in their boxes at the steering wheel.... but the Ross turns the sector less degrees... that proves the Ross is a slower ratio.  So, a slower ratio usually always means the car is much easier to steer (especially when stopped)... and that is not my experience with my two Ross cars,  One was from 1932 one is 1952 model

 

So that is why I would like to know someday, if there is a price to pay in steering effort by making the pitman longer to make up for lack of sector degrees....versus just using a better ratio IN the box itself, from the get go. 

[F&J]

12 hours ago, BillP said:

You want to drive this thing, don't you?

 

Morning contemplating that one "much needed" refocus....

 

Yes ,I said last eve, that I'd take you advice to leave the taper as is...but your sentence will now be my main refocus.  Next task on steering, was to go find the light switch rod that went down the 34 Buick shaft hole to operate the headlight switch at bottom of steering box.   That will add countless hours to morph with the Hupp horn button area.

 

If you see in my pics of the underside of chassis in recent pics, there is a modern dimmer switch hanging by modern wires.  The last person to try to save this car 40 years? ago, was missing the steering wheel, so he put on a early 20s wood wheel, and was missing that column light switch, so they just used a dash switch and added that floor dimmer... Ding!  I will keep what that guy did.  I always thought there must be some 32 2nd series parts cars or used parts out there, but they simply do not exist.  I need to get over it.

 

Thanks for the new battle plan from this day forward! >>>>> "You want to drive this thing, don't you?"

 

 

[F&J]

Aw geez, look what Bill P made me go and do...and FINISH, ...today:

It took 5-6 hours but I have an excuse,....  I did it the right way, no shortcuts, no forgotten things, some of which are unknown to some people.

 

More complicated than the casual stock "restorers" can imagine.  I did the many modifications to my Nash for two basic reasons over the years.  Most mods were due to the final realization that there simply are no parts cars out there, and very few used parts available, ever.  Then, I needed for my own tastes, to swap ratios...so learn to deal with it  

 

Not going to give my life's background, as to how I gained all the needed skills to figure it out, or what to do,  ..maybe I will someday....

 

I did not just weld a new taper on, to slap the wheel on..

I have a steering box that uses a bigger diameter column jacket tube.  The 32 Nash SECOND series uses a smaller size diameter. Here is the stock original to my car, column jacket bumping the oversized stub of the First series box..".it don't fit on" ..lol  The tube is supposed to go over that nub of the box, with a clamp bolt.    And the Hupp wheel's underside recess that goes over a Hupp size column, is in between those other two diameters. We need to splice both ends of my stock column, to proper diametrical needs.

I knew I'd start with the very bottom part donor slice with that bolt clamp, from the 32 First series bigger tube, then try to find a piece of scrap thick wall pipe or tube, to adapt that splice, to the much smaller OD second series column jacket.  The reason I must use the stock original jacket is NOT for originality...it slides through the dashboard hanging brace which cannot be bored out for a fatter column.  Also even if I could bore it out, now is even harder to make that tube fit in the under side of of the Hupp wheel.

 

.  Let's rock...  I am so very backlogged with life's chores, my hobby cars, like getting all the LaS stuff indoors or parts cars moved, and MORE customer stuff coming in, I need to be fast, hopefully not burning out, not getting hurt or making costly mistakes that add hours to fix,,

Those somkin' task days, sometimes get a push from the radio.  I use what is called "alternative rock" for this fab work, as I just don't get many airwaves here to choose in the valley, and I use Laptop 50s-60s while doing vintage style hot rod work.  Do whatever makes something happen    A song came on and one line was "where are they going, without even knowing the way".

 

I know where I am going, but must record where I "was":

Above pic.  Fast sketch so I know how much tapered Hupp shaft protruded from the Hupp column.  I need it when I try to weld on the top of the Hupp shaft. Bill's advice made me realize that even if another hobbyist needs the Hupp BOX itself, he'd likely need to swap tapers for HIS style of wheel.  So...I need the spliced on, new shaft top, to be 1-3/4", so it tucks up under the Wheel.  I also took a top sliced piece of the Hupp jacket as it had the correct ID upper shaft support bushing...saves time again.  The spliced piece is tacked, it will be welded/blended if everything all fits together, from top to bottom.

 

But where are we wanting the wheel to sit as far as closer or further from dash?  We can't do that yet, as we need to cut down the BOTTOM of the Nash tube to have the steering column locking slide bolt be where it needs to be: Here I measure the difference of location of too long a tube, to where the bracket needs to bolt. Subtract that distance from bottom of tube, then install the tube...

 

Well we still can't dial in the tube really sturdy until getting an adapter to fit the tube to the different diameter of box nub.  I looked for the thickwall stuff I said earlier but had none, and it takes a lot longer to make a one piece adapter on lathe.    I found out that if I used a slice of the Dodge tube, and add another slice of random exaust tube, it all fits together FAST.  Here is tacked, it will be fully welded and smoothed/blended later, when stuff gets paint.

Above pic, see the blue tape to show a feature: See the"key hole" shaped slot that gets clamped at the bottom?  The clamp gets slid so that only the round hole at top of key hole shows.... then that spring tensioned band covers that hole.  Why?  that is just another style of common "Column oiling hole" that sends oil to the UPPER worm bearing, that is ABOVE the box oil level. (many cars have just an open hole, this band keeps dust out.)  Supposed to be done during Oil/grease jobs, along with dozens of other spots in the owners manual.  Don't/can't get a manual?  Get a lube chart, repro or original made for your model, they were made for gas station lube shops. If you never did a frame off, you cannot imagine all the hidden places you are supposed to do !!!

 

 

 

Back to this pic again... I cannot splice the new piece on until I know if the wheel is too close/far from dash.  That splined shaft was put on by a rodder, so it cannot be used as a good guess of distance, right?  I walked away from the battle scene, with wheel in hands, squatted down, and held it away till I got a good feel of arm distance, then sat in the stock Nash seat, hoping new seat stuffing and upholstery would be close to my blankets "mock up".  I ended up liking it closer to the dash with "this" new diameter of wheel.

 

 

 

Now another critical splice.  Two things!!!  The wheel is a single key to locate it to the worm shaft, right?  And in prior posts, I said finding the "true high spot" on the worm, and it MUST be at that high spot when wheels are dead straight.  More later on the wheels angles.  Right now I cannot care if wheels are dead perfect or not.  Because, I am only concerned right this moment, to find the true worm center by feeling the drag on worm, then decide how you want the wheel to be...like one spoke facing straight down, or one straight up top?  The stock keyway was at top dead center with one spoke pointing straight down , so that was my clue, and it felt OK and looked OK.

 

Now we slice and dice, and weld.  First caution, do not put welding ground cable on chassis, it needs to be right on that shaft.  Chassis grounded will cause arching at the worm roller bearings!!  It makes pits as it arcs, getting a poor ground, ruining your irreplaceable worm gear with permanent races.

 

I measured how far to top of the hotrod spline tip, then saw I needed to end up all finished at 1/4" higher than it was. That is my knowing where I was.  Cut off the old spline end, but Not at where that bushing rides, and MUST leave enough on both parts to be set into the angle iron welding alignment "tool".  Clamp both ends of both parts, 4 clamps total. You have angle ground both for weld penetration.  You must leave a slight gap between the two.  Why? because if they are touching, the first tack welds will shrink like all welds do.  That shrink will try to pull  the shafts tighter together and can usually cause the cooled tack welded splice to be bent as you take that angle off..... to do the last under side tack.

 

Below, you tack two spots only, 120 degrees apart. Go away, let it cool off without water.  Then take clamps off, and rotate the splice 120 in the angle tool. One tack will now be at bottom of that angle tool not hitting to cause misalignment, the other is missing the side of tool angle, so it can now be clamped again without hitting the first two tacks.  That last tack, you can tack, or let 'er rip, as I did.  Now go have a coffee, it will be VERY hot with a 120 degree welded spot.

Then when cool....unclamp it, and sight down the entire shaft as a precaution, then weld the rest up. On columns with the lockbolt.  You need to install the lock bolt shaft "collar" down further on shaft,  before the splice welds.  That way you don't need to grind down the welds to slide it over.  I prefer to leave the welds as is.  My welds are hot enough, and wicked strong, but a weaker weld, ground down, can be weaker.

 

Below is the original First Series collar for the lock bolt.  It was a fatter column, so it cannot fit in a smaller diameter tube.  I found a few, but not the original one for my old Ross ??  No biggie, I can just add two lightly welded spots on two thick strips, the bolt will fit between. Then if ever needed to remove for some reason, a quick cut with a cutoff wheel'

Above:  The old home made wooden steering wheel shaft/taper adapter. I give them credit as I bet they lacked tooling, but it really was slightly wrong, and a pain, when I HAD to try to reuse it for the big 34 Buick wheel.

 

If I forgot important stuff I won't edit, I will do a new post that won't get overlooked.

 

Final words.  I said I did not care if wheels were pointing straight ahead when I installed the steering wheel/ keyway/ aligned to the worm high spot.  Soon, I need to straighten the badly bent drag link.  Then I will make sure that rebend also makes the front wheels DEAD straight at the worm center high spot.  You must never forget that high spot if you want it correct and want ZERO freeplay.  Trust me on that one thing..... if nothing else/

 

[chistech]

The way I remove stuck steering wheels is after I put the puller on, I hit the puller or the center bolt with a air hammer. That vibration gets any one I've ever had trouble with to pop right off. Just another idea.

[Guest BillP]

There is a lot of very interesting information here. Thanks for taking the time.

[F&J]

40 minutes ago, chistech said:

The way I remove stuck steering wheels is after I put the puller on, I hit the puller or the center bolt with a air hammer. That vibration gets any one I've ever had trouble with to pop right off. Just another idea.

 

I forgot to say I did finally find out why that wheel was stuck so hard, and fought me all of the way off, even after the "taper" was separated...

 

When I was nearly done yesterday, I tried to slide the wheel back on.  It just stopped as the threads were barely sticking up out of the hub.  I did not want to force it on because this entire project still needs cosmetic restoration soon.

 

I took the key out to try just the wheel on the taper.....fit like silk all the way.  The Hupp wheel, it's pieces inside the hub, the washers, key, nut, all looked virgin, as never been apart and damaged. No idea why, but the key was the problem.  Gripped it tightly with fingernails, rubbed all sides on a fine file till all showed flat, and it all fits 100% perfect now, sliding together like it was supposed to.

 

.So, Bill's advice as to not "change/alter" that taper was the correct call....the taper style and angle was NOT the issue, and that planned modification was my bad call.  I'm not perfect....and I know that, I learn new things nearly every day, even though I have 50 years doing this car stuff

[F&J]

It's been several weeks of trying to decide if I could, or even want to start up the Nash thread again.  Last post of May 2017 dates back to when my Lyme Disease was starting to destroy my brain which then led to Dementia.  Enough of that chapter of my life.

 

3 weeks ago, I actually started up, and drove the Nash out of long dormant storage, but still lacked any drive to get started.....and not even knowing where to start.  I drove it out in the lot each day and just stared at it for quite a few days.  Trying to recall the passion I once had for this oddball car.   I finally decided to fix the non working exhaust system as it sounded like open race car headers.  Got the head pipe fitting right, then took off the stupid exhaust cut-out valve to patch that hole in the head pipe, then made my own tailpipe from 1940s Mopar NORS  tailpipes that a friend once gave me.  Then I could hear how loose the valves were, set those, but now it's so quiet that I can hear a bad rod.   

 

My son talked me out of dropping the pan, and keeps saying to get the damn car in paint during good weather for dusty sanding, then do the engine in the winter, indoors. He's right, in that if it looks nice all painted up, then I will definitely want to finish it.

 

Here is the car as of a week ago. 

 

I started the body work "prep" by making the missing driver side door garnish moulding and I took lots of pics, and now I am making one good rear trunk from the rusty black donor trunk in the pic, and using parts of it to fix the original deluxe trunk that has the drop down rear panel version for side-mounted spare tire cars. Pics of these projects on the next posts in another day or so..

 

One of many things I did to try to get interest again, was to read the entire thread twice in the last weeks, then I joined the Nash Club Online Membership, and also bought this ebay listed 1980s Car Show jacket pin that I once mentioned seeing years ago:

Way back in this thread, I said I saw one of these pins and I guessed that it must be somebody's local car and not just a drawing. Well, I was right, because as a Nash Club Member, I can now look at old Club records as to what cars were once listed from previous members.  This car is the only 1063 in the list, and because that Elks sponsored 1989 Car Show is only 32 minutes from the town of the then owner, ... I would then assume it must have also been shown at Hershey in the 1980s, (because the owner was in Lebanon, Pa which is very close to Hershey). I cannot find a picture of it yet, but this car listed in the club, proves that there is one more in the USA besides mine.  I also previously posted a pic of the nice 1063 from Argentina, as well as talking about the rough one in Panama.  So in 11 years, that's only 4 that I know of.

 

One thing I did several years ago when I was concerned about my situation, I put every Nash part back into the car except the 7 new but older tires, and the 2nd trunk, and I wrote on the hood in chalk on where those items were stored...just so the next guy would have all of it if things didn't go well for me. I did go through all of those parts a week ago, and I have stuff that I forgot about and now can see that I don't really need anything that I can't make.  That boosted my outlook a bit more.

 

One last thing for today's post:  Check the link below from "The Filling Station" website that was written right after Hershey 2018.  Ten old well funded car guys from all over the USA including the owner of The Filling Station, came to my place right before heading to Hershey.  The article shows pics just of 5 of my vehicles then, and I now only still have one of those 5...The Nash! The article says I am "slightly eccentric"...I was still showing signs of Manic from the Lyme, but I also had 10 guys separately wandering all over, in the buildings, outside, etc!  They also miss-spelled my name LOL...so much for being famous I guess..

https://www.fillingstation.com/articles/hershey2018.html

 

If not for the Manic (which in my case made me very excited about everything),..... that is how I met all these guys a year earlier as they were gathered at Dave's 33/34 Chevy Roadster resto shop right as they were leaving for 2017 Hershey.  I was driving to a friends place and saw a stock 33 Chevy Roadster with it's top down, two older guys turning into a long driveway that leads to a bunch of car storage buildings that a friend once owned...  My Manic allowed/mademe to follow the roadster and I saw it drive in a side bay,... so I simply walked right in like I owned the place!   They all just stared, so I broke the ice-pick stares by saying I had a stock 34 GM convertible project.  A year later Dave found my contact info I gave him that day, and called me to see if I would have the tribe over for a visit.

 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Glad to see you active, Frank.   I was thinking about the Nash a couple days ago and wondering about it and you. 

 Thanks for bringing it back up.  Good luck , whatever you decide.

 

  Ben

[Taylormade]

Frank, those 32 Dodge Brothers fenders you sold me are now rechromed and mounted on my car.  Thanks again.

[JustDave]

Hello frank,       Good to see you back on the Nash and healthier,it’s been awhile since we heard from you,and no I have not found the devaux convertible yet,I think it’s great your back amongst the people who thought of you many times,hopefully it will ad many good years to your life,looking forward to your posts.     Dave

[Frank Tate]

Good to see you back and posting Frank! Thanks for your help on the VW in the past.  I may ask you for help again when I get the engine back in it and start messing with that fuel injection!

 

Best,

Frank

[JV Puleo]

It's great to have you back Frank...the Mitchell thread you inspired is still running but I miss your input. Cheers, Joe P.

[John_Mereness]

Go for the paint !!!

[alsancle]

Great to have you back Frank!   Missed your updates on the Nash.   It is very cool and unique,  I hope you find the energy to finish it.

[F&J]

The first part I decided to try reproducing (over a week ago), is the missing drivers door garnish moulding.  It's very different than any other Nash body styles, so I would never find a used one to buy.

 

It's curved upwards to follow the top of the door, and it has a crowned profile.   The original was made from very thin 21 Gauge steel, and I used a piece of house baseboard heating tin which was very close to 21 G.  It already had one edge along the length with a very curved-soft radius 90 degree bend like I needed.

 

First, I cut out the length and width, then bent the inside edge to a tight 90 bend on the 4 foot brake.  Then I knew I had to shape the upward bend first, and used a Shrinker :

 

Next, I needed to find a way to make the crowned up profile along the entire length.  A Pro shop would use curved metal dies in a huge Pullmax hammering machine, but I went with oak from the woodpile which I shaped with angle grinders:

 

 

next, I need to form the two ends to have a tight radius "return" as shown:

 

So I made a small hammer-form die from 1/4" round aluminum, I bent it 90, and shaped the profile with a grinder.  I will clamp it to each end, and hammer the metal around it:

 

 

As you are starting to hammer the edge around/over that die, the top and bottom will get a fold rising up.  You then hammer those folds back down, then keep hammering it back around the die until you have no folds showing.  It takes many repetitions to make it happen.  This is called "tuck shrinking", if you care to research that technique that was used by skilled metashapers back when mechanical shrinking equipment was yet to be invented.

 

Lastly, I drilled the screw holes and countersunk them by hand punching:

 

Guys, It takes me way more effort to make picture post updates compared to a few years ago.  Maybe overtired or whatever, but I will try to show more of what I have been working on lately.   P/S, that last Doodlebug seen in the backround, was waiting for the transporter truck as it had been sold.  I also retired from customer work and now rent out indoor storage for vintage cars instead, (so I can spend time on my own stuff now).

 

[r1lark]

Frank, good to see you posting again! And good to hear that you have simplified your life by retiring from working on other peoples cars.

[chistech]

Frank, good to see you back. I was just looking back through my 32’ Olds restoration thread, realized we hadn’t heard much after your Lyme diagnosis, and was curious on how you were doing. That Lyme can be a long, hard road for some and it appears you ended up on the gravel for a while. I missed your input on my thread and was curious if you ever got back to the fleetwood or LaSalle. Not sure if you know but the Olds is done and finished up well. Look forward to following your thread!

[F&J]

7 hours ago, chistech said:

Frank, good to see you back. I was just looking back through my 32’ Olds restoration thread, realized we hadn’t heard much after your Lyme diagnosis, and was curious on how you were doing. That Lyme can be a long, hard road for some and it appears you ended up on the gravel for a while. I missed your input on my thread and was curious if you ever got back to the fleetwood or LaSalle. Not sure if you know but the Olds is done and finished up well. Look forward to following your thread!

Long story shortened:  I knew I had it for 2 years but tests from 2 places said no, but I had it years ago and know what my symptoms were back then.  I had never known that it can go to the brain.  After being forced to go to a Hospital for 2-3 days which ignored my request for Lyme verification, they sent me to a Mental Hospital for 8 more days.  A very elderly Physiatrist (also handicapped from a stroke) was so excited after day 5 in that he found it by doing bloodwork each day.  He was able to find it in the blood because I was under stress which lowered my immune system, which allowed it to spread back into the blood. Lyme avoids oxygen and hides in tissue, unless you have a flare up like I knew I did on day 4.  But, despite me transferring all these recent records to my own Doctors Association, my doctor apparently never read them to enable getting treatment like my records said I'd be receiving.  Well, I waited nearly 6 months as I was not thinking clearly, then went back to the 2nd hospital to see if I had made some mistake, they admitted that I somehow was not followed up on.  By that time, I was really bad off mentally.   

 

As far as Fleetwood OR  LaSalle?... they are the same car.  34 was the last year for LaSalle using Fleetwood bodies.  I still have it and before going broke, I bought a lot of missing parts for it,  including buying prime grade oak boards.  I really had it all planned out on how to splice in the new rear halves of the main sills by learning info and confidence from your 32 Olds thread, (then illness stopped that.)

 

I've sold off all other projects.   I still have the 32 Ford and it's been my primary car for 2 years even in winter, and I'm single so there is no modern car here to borrow  .

 

My son helped me get back on the car stuff this winter.  He bought a 46 Jeep for parts from a northern Massachusetts junkyard where it sat 38 years under pine trees with no engine. After a month or so, he said it was a shame to part it out for his 48 project, so he found a cheap complete chassis w/engine and we did a valve job on that engine and installed it. Then I spent months fixing rot, 12volt conversion, etc.  He said if he finally finds his first home with lots of land, he'd use it as a farm vehicle. Well, he found his dream farm 3 miles from here, but was out of his price range, as well far as mortgage requirements because farms cannot use first time loans or low down loans.  I went to look and knew that if he got it, then me worrying about what happens to all my stuff someday was now solved.  I inherited some stocks months earlier, so I sold them right before the first crash and he now owns a tree and fish farm

 

Two months ago we drove it to his place, MVD was closed indefinitely, so I put a farm transport plate on it. The red triangle..LMAO

One of the last dirt roads in town.

 

Look at the speedometer below, he knew I had run out of stamina when I decided to only rebuild the rear brakes, then he could do the fronts later.  I was at 45mph and he was leaving me behind. He said "he wanted to see what it would do". good grief. 

 

The following were taken that day at his new home:   Three big ponds and four smaller ones, Christmas trees, apples, etc.  All sorts of wildlife including beavers, geese, ducks, etc. Stunning property IMO

 

Below picture.,,, we don't throw anything away! 

I will try to update my Nash thread very soon, I've been putting in a lot of work on the trunk and all the aluminum trim.

 

.

[chistech]

There is nothing like owning property. It look like a beautiful place. These days most only want condos or townhouses because they don’t even want to maintain a lawn. Besides, it hard to operate a mower and hold a cell phone in your hand. I haven’t trusted too many doctors in my life for the very reason you state. Even now with this virus, the expert doctors change their minds everyday yet act like this is a new virus. It’s been being studied for years and millions of tax payer dollars but they still have no treatment for it never mind a vaccine? Something is fishy there to me!

Edited July 3, 2020 by chistech (see edit history)