1957buickjim Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Hey Guys, I've been having a heck of a time with this problem for the last couple of months. About 95% of the time, when I come to a stop while driving my Buick, the car will stall. It is now to the point when I anticipate a stop, I put the car into neutral and coast and apply brakes so it doesn't stall. At that point, I can shift into Low, then drive and the car will run fine until I need to stop again. The stalling is the same when I turn on the headlights as well. If the car is park, and I turn on the lights, the car stalls. If I'm under power (driving) and I turn on the lights, OK. It will also stall with the lights on 50 - 75% of the time when I'm stopping as well at night with the lights on. I can get this to stop, but I have to have the idle set to around 1100, which is way high for the car, but I can limp along without any of the stalling issues at that setting. I've been told it is a electrical ground issue, and I have been chasing the grounds on the engine, lights, heater resistor to clean them up, but still have the issue when I turn the idle down to about 850, which is still high, since the idle should be around 485-500. Anybody have any suggestions? I have adjusted the carb to factory idle settings as well as correctly adjusted the linkages. Looking for some help here. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Sound like the issue is the generator that is not up to the task when under load from the lights or when rpm are very low. The battery is in good shape? What is the charge like for the generator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 2 hours ago, 1957buickjim said: Hey Guys, I've been having a heck of a time with this problem for the last couple of months. About 95% of the time, when I come to a stop while driving my Buick, the car will stall. It is now to the point when I anticipate a stop, I put the car into neutral and coast and apply brakes so it doesn't stall. At that point, I can shift into Low, then drive and the car will run fine until I need to stop again. The stalling is the same when I turn on the headlights as well. If the car is park, and I turn on the lights, the car stalls. If I'm under power (driving) and I turn on the lights, OK. It will also stall with the lights on 50 - 75% of the time when I'm stopping as well at night with the lights on. I can get this to stop, but I have to have the idle set to around 1100, which is way high for the car, but I can limp along without any of the stalling issues at that setting. I've been told it is a electrical ground issue, and I have been chasing the grounds on the engine, lights, heater resistor to clean them up, but still have the issue when I turn the idle down to about 850, which is still high, since the idle should be around 485-500. Anybody have any suggestions? I have adjusted the carb to factory idle settings as well as correctly adjusted the linkages. Looking for some help here. Thanks! Vacuum leak; in addition to the usual places check the throttle shaft. If you want to rule out electrical, (as a test) jump 12v+ to the coil and 12v- to the distributor housing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1957buickjim Posted August 13, 2018 Author Share Posted August 13, 2018 Chris, I just put in a freshly rebuilt generator, so that shouldn't be the problem. Gen output has been checked at 13.85 v +/- fluctuation of .1 at gen as well at at the voltage regulator. Battery is very good, holds a good charge. I'm going to try Willie's voltage drop check at coil to see if it is an electrical gremlin. Willie, what would be the process for that? Run a jumper from the battery to the positive lead on coil, and a ground lead from negative battery post to distributor housing? I will start the vacuum leak sleuthing. The carb is an NOS carb I bought, and just installed, because I think I had that throttle shaft leak on the original carburetor. I'll check all the fittings and hoses as well. Where else should I check? Spray around intake, carb base and throttle shaft with carb cleaner, anything else? Thanks so far guys. It's just frustrating trying to pin point it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Good the charging system/battery are up to the task. I do believe it is an electrical issue as Willie is thinking. Keep us posted! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 1 hour ago, 1957buickjim said: Run a jumper from the battery to the positive lead on coil... ...or the terminal with the yellow wire on the ballast resistor (bypasses resistor), then start it right away. If improvement then switch to the pink wire terminal on the ballast resistor. This is how you 'hot wire' a car...will not turn off until disconnected. This will bypass any wiring or ground problems. We had one that died on left hand turns: the battery wire on the solenoid was shorting on the starter splash shield (55 Special). Block off all vacuum taps at the manifold. Verify the gasket: carb to manifold; manifold to head --- disassembly required...never had much luck with sprays. Intake manifold torque is 30 ft/lbs and is usually not achieved with a 3/8 drive ratchet. I use a thin layer of high temp RTV on those gaskets. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancemb Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Jim, if happening when stopping and when lights on, it's almost surely electrical. Furthermore, sounds like you're not getting required voltage for combustion which usually is a problem with basic ignition parts. There is a good chance that the coil is failing, and this is an easy swap and check if you have another good one lying around. Bad plugs, points, wires, cap, or rotor could also be culprit or contributing factors. My early bet would be on the coil though, especially if you believe your plugs, points, wires, cap, and rotor to be in good condition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 What Willie said Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Phillips Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 I vote for vacuum leak--that's what it sounds like to me. Did the problem start after the new carburetor was installed? If so, it is almost assuredly a vacuum leak around base of carb. Pete Phillips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 Jim, it's a long shot but check that the wire from the coil to the distributor is tight at the distributor. Same on the points and condenser, assuming you still have those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 It would be nice to know the vacuum reading at idle, unless I missed it. On the new old stock carb you installed: 2-barrel or 4-barrel? Both Carter and Rochester used Velumoid gaskets, which shrink with time, and cause leaks. Strombergs used a material that did not shrink. Is the gasket from carb to intake correct for both carb and intake? Did you install a spacer under the carb? Jon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1957buickjim Posted August 16, 2018 Author Share Posted August 16, 2018 Jon, The carb was a NOS 2 Barrel Carter. I used a correct, new gasket between the carb and the intake. Here is the vacuum reading at idle. Looks quite good. The other factor that I forgot to mention is that I installed a Pertronix Ignitor ignition system in my distributor and that's about the same time that the problem started. Latest updates: Tuesday, installed a new voltage regulator, just to make sure I was getting good voltage from the generator to the battery (13.78v cold; 13.65v hot). Still idle at 1050rpm to keep systems running when braking or lights on. Yesterday with 95Cardinal (Joe Tonietto) and Larry Schram on the speaker phone, we did a deep dive on the ignition system voltage (like Willie and Lance) said. We checked all the voltages with a load on across the coil, and they maintained a consistent 7.5-7.6 when idling at 1050rpm. When the car was put into gear (drive, low and reverse) did not stall. Tested with loads in park - lights on, brake depressed, blower on high, still had same reading. When the car was put into drive and low, with brakes depressed and headlamps turned on, car would stall. Had a reading of 4.1v across the coil. At that point, we searched for any details that a Pertronix Ignition change might induce. Found out that the petronix needs 12 volts at start to keep ignition going and a coil that is 1.6 ohms or greater for best operation. We checked voltage across the coil when running and we were getting consistently 7.5 -7.6 volts, which is good, past the ballast resistor to the coil. However, the coil itself was a 3.5 ohm coil. We swapped it out for a 2.1 ohm coil, and also ran a jumper from the hot wire (pink) on the ballast resistor to the positive wire from the Pertronix system from the distributor to give it 12 volts at start. We did not change the idle speed, but wanted to find out if the lower ohm coil and jumper to 12V would help. Started the car, and fired immediately. Performed electrical load test, and no issues from any of the systems in park at idle, or with a load. Voltage from the gen to the battery was 13.6-13.7v, which is normal. We decided to try our luck in lowering the idle rpm to see if we could get it to the factory 485 level. Backed off idle to 485 and performed load test. In park at idle, no issues. When shifting to reverse (seems to be the most load for engine), and turn on lights - car stalls. Increased idle speed to 520, performed same test (reverse / brakes / lights) - no stall. Turned on blower motor - stalled immediately. Moved idle up to 560, performed same test (reverse / brakes / lights) and now blower at high - no stall. Voltage at gen was 14.1 with load for peak, leveled off at 13.62, voltage a coil was at 7.3-7.4 with all load on. Took a small test drive at midnight (when we finished) and car did not stall under driving / stopping conditions. It was only a short drive. Longer drive will come tomorrow. So far, the adjustment on the voltage to the Pertronix Ignitor Ignition with the jumper seems to work and the idle is near where it should be. The headlights and interior lights flicker, so my next issue is to look at replacing the light switch and go back and test more ground in the light circuit. The only other unusual thing is that the ammeter needle barely moves during any of the load tests (When the car is running and I turn on my headlamps, the needle doesn't move. Any suggestions? Could this be tied to the pertronix? Thanks.. Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rztrike Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 You can see the lights flickering, this happened to me on a OT vehicle albeit 28 yrs old. Chased this gremlin for a long time replacing good voltage regulators, rechecking grounds, Battery terminals, running separate ground to voltage regulator, you name it. Then one day, deciding to try again I followed the wiring harness from the alternator ( i realize you have a generator) to the voltage regulator. I checked the connections and found corrosion but most of all I found was the feed wire to the voltage regulator was soft and almost looked twisted under the covering. I cleaned the connection and it helped but when I replaced the wire with a slightly heavier wire, my problem was solved. It seemed that through the years the wire was losing resistance and the corrosion at the plug wasn't helping either and the only time it was noticeable was at idle. Check terminals, plug connectors, wire harness. We have to remember that what were dealing with are 60 +/- yrs old. What may look good on the outside may not be working 100% on the inside. Hope this helps you 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 On a Corvair forum, the first question would be: Is that a Pertronix I or Pertronix II? One of them really needs +12 on the coil (bypass the resistor) to work with an automatic transmission. I do not know which, as I still run points, they work.....? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 hour ago, 1957buickjim said: The only other unusual thing is that the ammeter needle barely moves during any of the load tests (When the car is running and I turn on my headlamps, the needle doesn't move. Any suggestions? Could this be tied to the pertronix? Thanks. With a fully charged battery and increased rpm, you will not see much movement until the charging capacity is exceeded. With the engine off turning on headlights, then blowers then radio should show increased discharge --- if not then ammeter is defective. Try a dedicated ground to the distributor and/or the Pertonix ground wire. Actually the simplest test would be to install your points/condenser. The pertonix may be defective and there is probably no way to test it. The car should run the same with the original stock coil by way of the ballast resistor with either points/condenser or pertronix since both are just a switch. The coils specified by pertronix might put out a higher voltage spark, but might not work with points/condenser without failure. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancemb Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 I have had Pertronix on about 6 different cars and never had an issue. Thus it's possible your Pertronix unit is defective if everything else checks out and you still have a stall. Also, this may sound basic and silly, but make sure you don't have a coil with an internal resistor like some aftermarket replacements and also running through external resistor. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 If the issue started at the same time as installing a Pertronix module, that's probably it. The Pertronix module likes stable voltage, something a generator cannot deliver with a points based voltage regulator. The lobe sensing Ingitor is supposedly the best. I fried one of those and two of the Ignitor II modules with a generator following Pertronix's instructions to a T. I also fried one with an alternator, too. I would do what Willie suggests and put the points/condenser back in and see if the condition fixes itself. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 11 hours ago, Beemon said: If the issue started at the same time as installing a Pertronix module, that's probably it. The Pertronix module likes stable voltage, something a generator cannot deliver with a points based voltage regulator. The lobe sensing Ingitor is supposedly the best. I fried one of those and two of the Ignitor II modules with a generator following Pertronix's instructions to a T. I also fried one with an alternator, too. I would do what Willie suggests and put the points/condenser back in and see if the condition fixes itself. ^^^^I second this plan of attack!^^^^ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Also be sure you use resistor plugs and radio suppression wires and that there is continuity from the inside of the distributor cap to the plug terminals. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1957buickjim Posted August 18, 2018 Author Share Posted August 18, 2018 Hi Guys...So today, I went to start the car to take for a longer test drive. Car wouldn't turn over. I was totally irritated and baffled. Checked jumper and found that it was suspect. Changed jumper wire to ballast, and car started right up, still had minimal voltage to coil, so I replaced the ballast resistor and re-configured the jumper wire and Bingo!! Got consistent voltage to coil, with key on, not running of 7.4 -7.5 volts. Hit the starter switch, and it immediately started. Ran at idle speed very well, and took the car for a test drive. Had no issues with hard stop stalling, or any stalling. Car idled great and pick-up and power to car was the best it's ever been! Since it is Dream Cruise here (for you not familiar with it, pretty big event in Detroit area), I decided to try the car out on a drive on Woodward Avenue for a few mile in stop and go traffic (2-10 mph). Again, no issues. Me thinks the problem is pretty much solved. For Willie: I have resistor plugs and resistor wires on the car. At this point, I am not going to change back to points and condenser yet. I seem to have solved the problem thus far. Hopefully for the future as well, but you never know. Thanks to everyone who provided me insight into this. If you need to know how to hook a Pertronix to your Buick, I know have the knowledge and can help. Cheers, Jim 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick man Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 …. OK Jim so why not post a How to Do … sounds like a great topic - and suggest you explain what you meant by "re-configured the jumper wire " uncle dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Phillips Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Well, installing a Pertonrix ignition system on your old Buick was your first mistake. I will never, never, never, NEVER put a Pertronix ignition system on an old car. NEVER! Have seen too many of them cause other problems or fail prematurely, or disguise certain problems so that the usual diagnosis doesn't find the problem. I have taken numerous Pertronix and other add-on electronic ignition systems off of old cars belonging to customers or friends, after the car didn't run right and nothing else fixed it. You can diagnose and probably fix a problem with points & condenser on the side of the road, but you will never fix a Pertronix ignition system on the side of the road. They all belong in the garbage--ALL OF THEM. Yes, I know that's a strong statement that some won't agree with, but that's the way I feel about it after several years of experience. Pete Phillips, BCA #7338 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Pete Phillips said: Well, installing a Pertonrix ignition system on your old Buick was your first mistake. How so? His problem didn't seem to have anything to do with the Pertronix system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 47 minutes ago, KongaMan said: How so? His problem didn't seem to have anything to do with the Pertronix system. It's directly related, he had to change the ignition circuit through the ballast resistor due to the module being improperly installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, Beemon said: It's directly related, he had to change the ignition circuit through the ballast resistor due to the module being improperly installed. As I read it, the problem was a bad ballast resistor. Even if the issue was a improperly installed module, that doesn't put the blame on the module itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancemb Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 (edited) I've had only good experiences with Pertronix. For disclosure I've only used the lobe-sensing units. The weak point of Pertronix is that they have the possibility to fail suddenly. I haven't had this happen personally but it is a risk. However, carry a set of points in your glovebox and you can in fact get the car running again on the side of the road in a matter of minutes, should that happen. Edited August 19, 2018 by lancemb (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 I agree, FWIW,. It is my firm belief that most, if not all, problems with ANY electronic ignition is either voltage too low or some other component, as in this case. I do not believe the manufactures would have changed when they did if points were better. I have had my original distributor modified with an electronic coil/reluctor inside and a GM HEI module mounted externally. Of course, I changed to 12V long ago. Absolutely NO problems. Is it not grand that we have the options we have and can do things differently ? Ben 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rztrike Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 10 hours ago, Pete Phillips said: Well, installing a Pertonrix ignition system on your old Buick was your first mistake. I will never, never, never, NEVER put a Pertronix ignition system on an old car. NEVER! Have seen too many of them cause other problems or fail prematurely, or disguise certain problems so that the usual diagnosis doesn't find the problem. I have taken numerous Pertronix and other add-on electronic ignition systems off of old cars belonging to customers or friends, after the car didn't run right and nothing else fixed it. You can diagnose and probably fix a problem with points & condenser on the side of the road, but you will never fix a Pertronix ignition system on the side of the road. They all belong in the garbage--ALL OF THEM. Yes, I know that's a strong statement that some won't agree with, but that's the way I feel about it after several years of experience. Pete Phillips, BCA #7338 I know I'm new here to the forum but I need to reply on this because the same things happen on other forums and can deter others from wanting to be members. The person who started this post needed our help because he/she had used their own knowledge and help from others and could not get the problem they were having solved. they reached out for help. Bottom line is, They felt that installing an electronic ignition was an upgrade they wanted to do. They needed advice on trying to fix their issue not an opinion from someone that they made a mistake because someone else had a bad experience. We must always try to think of the person posting. We have all been in these situations where we needed some elses help. There are times when we need and will want others opinions so we can make educated decisions for ourselves, this post was not one of them 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1957buickjim Posted August 19, 2018 Author Share Posted August 19, 2018 To set the record straight - I installed the Pertronix system on the car because I was having some starting problems and it was recommended by a fellow BCA member in SE Michigan. He installed one on his 57 and it helped tremendously. Instructions on the Pertronix are more general than specific. I imagine, if all your parts were new as well as the wiring etc, following the installation instructions as shown would be perfect. However, there are subtleties that you need to research and be aware of when you install one on a 57 Buick. 1. Coil resistance should be as close to 1.6 ohms as possible (I checked 2 that I had, one was 3.3 ohms and the other 2.1 - I used the 2.1 ohms) 2. Take the positive (red) lead from the Pertronix and make a jumper from it to the primary (pink) wire on the ballast resistor. I used a 16 ga wire with a F connector to connect to the Pertronix. 3. Make sure your charging system can provide 13.5 - 13.8 volts to the system (coming from the gen to the voltage regulator). 4. Make sure that your ballast resistor contacts are clean and provide excellent contact surfaces. 5. Clean up all contact surfaces and grounds. That always helps. The reply by Rztrike perfectly expressed why I came to put the question out there. I needed some help figuring this problem out, as it has been a constant thorn in my side regarding driving my car with any kind of confidence for any longer than a 5 mile radius around my house. I learned to compensate for it by increasing idle speed, shifting into neutral when coming to a stop, revving the engine when turning on the lights. But what I have learned with the replies has been very helpful, as well as the help from my Buick friends locally. I'm sorry Pete has had so many issues with the system. I think for my application, it is now working as advertised and the car starts immediately and runs very smooth with very good power. Thanks again for all the help and advice on this. I think I will put together a Pertronix instruction thread, per Buick Man's advice, for anyone who may be interested in making the switch. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Jim, in looking back, it looks like the car was telling you what was wrong. I guess the old saying about 20/20 hindsight fits. Low voltage at the module was the problem. Dirty and loose connections the reason. Faster idle was the crutch. Glad you "fixed" it. Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1957buickjim Posted August 19, 2018 Author Share Posted August 19, 2018 Thanks Ben..I appreciate it. I'm just glad its fixed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 3 hours ago, 1957buickjim said: 1. Coil resistance should be as close to 1.6 ohms as possible (I checked 2 that I had, one was 3.3 ohms and the other 2.1 - I used the 2.1 ohms What is the resistance value of a stock coil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1957buickjim Posted August 19, 2018 Author Share Posted August 19, 2018 (edited) Just now, old-tank said: What is the resistance value of a stock coil? Willie, the Delco stock coil I had on the car was 3.3 Ohms. I had a replacement one that I had purchased a few years ago (NORS) and that was the one that was 2.1 Ohms. Edited August 19, 2018 by 1957buickjim (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 6 hours ago, lancemb said: However, carry a set of points in your glovebox and you can in fact get the car running again on the side of the road in a matter of minutes, should that happen. Easier said than done. In my experience, installing the pertronix module changes the base timing. You would also need to carry a timing light with you, too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 On replacement coils where specs were listed: 1-1.5 ohms (?). Should not matter since the Pertronix is just a switch (substitute for the points which is a switch). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancemb Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 3 hours ago, Beemon said: Easier said than done. In my experience, installing the pertronix module changes the base timing. You would also need to carry a timing light with you, too. Using lobe-sensing Pertronix I have never had to mess with the timing. I suppose if the Pertronix fired a split second sooner or later than the mechanical action of the points this would be a slight difference but on all my cars it's been a 60 min swap to add LS Pertronix with no timing adjustment necessary. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackensen Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 when changing over to a new system always use all the parts recommend by the manufacturer. they are designed to work together. this for fyi only. give up your manhood read the instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Does the timing "move" advanced or retarded? Just curious. A few of the first electronic ignition conversion kits, think 1972, from noted ignition brands, mentioned a "spark retard" of 1 degree/;1000rpm in spark timing using the same base timing setting. Seems like it was Accel's literature that mentioned that? Reasons? The switching circuitry, I believe then said. Other brands didn't even touch on that subject, just that the electronic systems were "less maintenance" and such. When changing from E-code headlights to sealed beams, should the need arise, better have a Phillips-head screwdriver handy, too, to readjust the beam height. NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1957buickjim Posted September 3, 2018 Author Share Posted September 3, 2018 Timing did not change. Had no issue with that. The significant issues were making sure the Petronix system was getting 12 volts (now does from primary wire at ballast); Generator and voltage regulator change as well as ballast resistor (all had issues), and making sure grounds were checked and cleaned. Since then (+2 weeks) no issue starting or stalling while driving and stopping. Thanks to everybody for the assistance! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackensen Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 The instructions with the Pertronix unit say to bypass the resistor. Why are you using the resistor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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