BRASS Lamp reference

[Terry Bond]

I've got a couple of old car buddies trying to talk me into writing a book on brass lamps.  I'm an amateur collector (accumulator actually) and have a small collection of them. I was able to pull together some information and presented a couple of seminars at the AACA Annual meeting, but the info I shared was very generic.    I've always wondered if such a reference exists, and I'm learning it does not.  It might be a fun retirement project,.  I like to learn as much as I can about things I collect but it's been very difficult to find information on brass lamps aside from what is some of the early accessory or lamp catalogs I've collected over the years.

 

Some questions for the general audience before I type the first word or take the first photograph -  Is there anything out there on lamps or early automotive lighting?   Are there any major collectors/collections of brass lamps that might be resources for help or information?  Is there any information on the companies that produced them?   I realize that any such reference would need to be international in scope as it would a serious omission to forget about those wonderful French, German and British lamps made in the early 1900s.  I would not want this to be a pure "picture book" but would want to include some accurate information on manufacturers and perhaps even what cars used which lamps if possible.   A tremendous undertaking for sure and at this point every time I think about it it gets more complicated.  I can envision spending hours pouring through early publications and trade journals for info, and extensive travel to visit museums and collectors.  Sounds like fun but would be a big commitment and a years-long project that would probably need updating (volume II) as soon as it was published.   It would be a labor of love for sure as the market for it would be very limited.

 

Thoughts appreciated, especially from anyone who has ever undertaken a similar project. 

Terry

[1937hd45]

Terry, I look forward to buying my copy. Will you start at the beginning, coach lamps, & bicycle lamps? I would think all the early auto lamp makers got their start there. A totally restored brass lamp is a thing of beauty, but in its day was just a pile of parts assembled by workers that didn't have the highest of skill levels. Got to find a brass lamp photo, the one that always comes to mind when they are mentioned. Bob 

[A. Ballard 35R]

Terry, have you checked the three major club magazine indices for articles on lamps? There is a good chance that this subject was covered in an article written 50 plus years ago when brass era cars were so prevalent.

[Terry Bond]

I've not even started to research the subject, but I do know there was a book published a while ago on bicycle lamps.  Believe it was a foreign publication and was mainly a photo book showing lamps in one person's collection.  O

I've learned there was a British book published a few years ago on early automotive lighting but I'm not finding a copy so far.  Bob you are correct that many existing manufacturers started by producing carriage and bicycle lamps.  Companies like Dietz have been around a long time.  If I decide to tackle this project I'll no doubt be digging into a lot of resources. 

Terry

[1912Staver]

I think the place to start would be lamp Manufacturers catalogs.  I expect you are well acquainted with the AACA library so that combined with the HCCA library should cover a lot of the background material.  The " big " producers are probably more or less straightforward as far as getting a hold of catalogs. I expect there are also a number of more obscure brands in addition to the mainstream. These small or regional makers will probably the most difficult to research. If you include makers from outside North America the scope of the project is possibly beyond any single persons undertaking. 

 Likewise the attempt to document the exact lamps fitted to specific makes and models. Some of the lamps are specific to specific cars. Many cars however were not fitted with lamps at the factory and as long as lamps from about the corresponding year are fitted they are as correct as we can expect. And I get the feeling quite a few lamps had no O.E.M. application, they were simply sold as accessories.

 A few lamps had engraving or etched plates attached designating the make or even in a few cases model of car they were made for. They are the easiest of all to identify, unfortunately they are a distinct minority.

Greg in Canada

[Steve Moskowitz]

Terry, there has been at least one book done on lamps.  I think I have it and will unearth it for you.  Not a lot of detail, just pictorial of lamps...think it might have been published by Clymer.  Ambitious project which should keep you out of trouble for a long time.  With publish on demand it might not be that scary of a financial issue. 

[1937hd45]

The local flea markets saw a lot of brass era lamps hit the market after 911, story was they were stored in the  basement of one of the smaller buildings destroyed that day in NYC. Bob 

[Terry Bond]

It's interesting that numbers of lamps still turn up occasionally.  I've known of several old parts loads over the years that included a lot of brass lamps.  I know there must be some old collections out there but I'm looking for a few dedicated collectors to really know their stuff and have taken some time to do the research.  

I've seen the book published by Clymer and I know there were two other books written by someone named Page and published by Shire Books in the UK.  One was on early bicycle lamps and the other was on early automobile lighting.  I've not been able to obtain copies and they've long been out of print.  The other book I mentioned  was another European work on bicycle lamps and I wish I'd bought a copy that I saw on ebay several years ago.  It was very expensive and was printed with a German text as I recall. 

Oddly enough catalogs from the manufacturers are very scarce.  In all my years of collecting I've only ever seen catalogs from Solar.  I have one from 1903 and another from 1908.  The general accessory catalogs I've collected for years provide a wealth of detail regarding individual lamps offered for sale, but nothing about the companies that made them.  They are good for dating lamps with some degree of limited accuracy.   I believe the best information would be found in Automobile Trade Journal and perhaps other early publications such as Horeselss Age and Motor.  Those publications carried a lot of industry information and I'm sure lamps would be an important part of all that. 

 

If I decide to tackle this project my first stop would indeed be the AACA Library and Research Center.  I like the thought of checking to see if anything has previously been written in other hobby publications.  

 

If the level of my energy and available time begins to match my level of curiosity it just might happen.   Here is an example of the catalogs I mention.

 

[1937hd45]

Country Life in America was a great upscale magazine, I've got a stack of them from 1907 - 1911 they had an automobile section, with some nice ads. This one is from April 1911. Bob  

Edited March 5, 2018 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[lump]

13 hours ago, Terry Bond said:

  

 

If the level of my energy and available time begins to match my level of curiosity it just might happen.   Here is an example of the catalogs I mention.

 

 

 

Terry, I will be very interested to see your book when it is completed, and will enjoy the process of your working on it. 

 

RIght now I am very curious about the first catalog cover which you featured in your last post. That cover date SEEMS to be 1944, to my old eyes. But the illustration style, and the featured vehicles, suggest a much, much earlier date. By the 1940's (during WWII), planes were developing so fast, motor vehicles were styled "pointy" and aerodynamic. These vehicles look like the date ought to be 1914 or 1924, maybe? But those numerals sure don't look that way. What is the story there? 

 

Cheers! 

Edited March 5, 2018 by lump (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

This catalog is 1914.  I've got quite a variety of them going back to 1903.  The Charles Williams catalogs had some of the nicest covers on them.   Back in the 1900s,  you could buy all the pieces you needed to build your own car. I believe the AACA Library and Research Center also has a good assortment of these accessory catalogs.  It's true that many cars came without lamps and dealers would often install whatever a buyer wanted.  I've heard stories of people buying new and better lamps to replace their old ones as soon as they brought the car home.  For some I'm sure it was a case of bigger and fancier is best!  

 

Good ads would be an essential part of any reference work.  I'll be having dinner this evening with a few of the people trying to talk me into doing this.  I'm going to enjoy the free Scotch!

Terry

[1937hd45]

Notice that Mrs. Cuneo has removed the fender and side lamp to gain easy access to the engine on her car. Bob 

[JV Puleo]

I think I should add my two cents to this. My everyday job is editing collector books and I've written a couple as well. They are in a different area but in nature not far removed than the proposed project. Several of them have dealt with the same chronological era.

 

In  the first place, you'd need a lot of the pertinent catalogs, not just a handful of them, You would have to identify and establish a chronology for each maker. You'd need to take or get very good photographs. This is something that is much easier said than done. Cell phone pictures and the like are not reproduction quality.

You would also need access to comprehensive collections of the period motoring magazines, certainly Horseless Age and MoToR and perhaps others I'm not familiar with. It could be largely done by copying period illustrations. These would be much easier to reproduce than most photographs but some photographs would still be needed.

 

Having done all this, you'd need a publisher or deep pockets (or maybe booth). Marketing is as big a part of publishing as writing and, perhaps, more challenging. The technical expertise needed to arrange the printing of a book is at least as challenging as that needed to organize a major restoration. The on-line easy self-publishing sites, like lulu or the one offered by Amazon, produce what you would expect... amateurish products. Good book layout is as much an art as painting.

 

And... in the end, I wonder how much interest there is. There have been no significant books on brass era cars for a very long time. I don't think this is because there is no interest but because there simply aren't enough of them to generate popular interest. Personally, it's a book I would buy but, as is so often claimed on this forum, a LOT more work than someone new to the subject is likely to have anticipated if it is going to be well done.

 

Feel free to PM me if I can be of help...

 

Joe Puleo

 

An afterthought... my 1910 Mitchell didn't even come with headlamps (although it did have side lamps and a tail light). Every purchaser had to buy them separately!

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by JV Puleo
typo (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

I just received a prepublication notice/invitation to buy a second book from friends of mine, planned run is 2,500 copies. Yes, based on their first book I'm buying the second due out in 2019. Is this common in hobby books, I can see were having the pre publication funds in hand would make the production of a book a bit easier. Bob 

[JV Puleo]

It is fairly common with self-published books and much less so with those produced by a professional publisher. I always avoid any sort of "promise" that a book will be available and never allow payment in advance because it almost always causes a lot of bad feeling when the inevitable delays occur. But, an offer that gives the author a sense of how many books may be needed is probably a wise precaution in the case of a non-professional. It is astonishing how many ideas I see floated for books that haven't a snowball's chance in he - l of selling anything like the requisite numbers to cover the printing costs much less make a profit.

[lump]

Like JV, I have written and/or edited several books on the automotive hobby; primarily for Amos Press, back when they were publishing CARS & PARTS magazine (I think they were actually publishing them through Classic Motorbooks). 

 

Anyway, I believe it may be easier today than ever before to publish books, with all kinds of options being available. Indeed, today you can even publish nice, hardbound book in very, very small quantity. This may not hold true, however, if you are planning to produce a "coffee table book" with gorgeous, studio quality photos and oversize pages, etc, etc. 

 

The first thing which must be done is to decide WHY you are making this particular book, and for which target audience. One could make a very nice educational book which would satisfy the needs of collectors and restorers, but which would hold little appeal to people who love to look at antique objects in beautiful photography. Car collectors have seen hundreds of "coffee table books" on vintage vehicles, containing only basic, generic information, but loaded with fabulous photos (our well-meaning family members buy them for us at holidays ). But many serious hobbyists might be more concerned with facts, figures, and other detailed, informative information.

 

So first figure out which target audience will MOST want/need your book, and how they will enjoy or use it MOST. Then you can decide how to proceed. 

 

Writing publishing automotive books and/or magazines is a huge, complex subject, but these are my initial thoughts and opinions on the subject. 

Edited March 8, 2018 by lump (see edit history)

[uniemaia]

interesting thread, I also have the same question

Edited March 9, 2018 by uniemaia (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

My "target audience"  so far has been my buddies who drink scotch with me every so often, and a few who have responded with words of encouragement here and on the Model T Forum.  Guess my interest is also an off-=shoot of my own quest for info about lamps in my own collection.  I suppose there is good reason why a comprehensive history/reference work has never been published before, and limited interest would be the biggest reason I believe.  I'm wondering about how companies like McFarland can produce such limited-audience books on cars?  I spoke briefly with their rep at the AACA Annual Meeting in Philadelphia this year and they are very much into producing books in small quantities with limited audiences.  I look also at the selection of books available for gas pumps, globes, signs, etc.  Those are perhaps going to appeal to a bigger audience but still can't imagine it would be a profitable venture.  Making money isn't really the object but i don't want it to break the bank either.  Lots of things to think about, and it may never happen but it's a heck of an interesting topic and no doubt I'll be digging further into it, if for no other reason than my own curiosity. 

 

Curious too about the above post- are you contemplating a book on brass lamps too?  Maybe I'll just wait for yours and buy a copy!

Terry

 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Terry Bond (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

Here is a sampling of a few of the ads I've gathered - I especially like the Atwood Castle ad that lists cars using the lamps.  Amazing stuff from some of my early catalogs.

Terry

[lump]

Terry, this is beautiful stuff. 

 

One thing to keep in mind...a target audience can be very small. Yet if that audience is ALSO very intensely interested in a subject, it becomes possible to produce a written work which will be very popular, and with very strong...but very limited demand QUANTITIES. But as I said before, it is entirely possible today to produce very, VERY small quantities of nice quality books. This is MUCH more feasible today than it was 10 years ago. 

 

Let's stay in touch. This is very close to my field of expertise, and I'll try to offer some suggestions here and there, as you need it. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by lump (see edit history)

[trimacar]

Terry, good luck with this project, it sounds like one that is both interesting and challenging.  I would think the book should also include stories of the manufacturers, there have to be some interesting anecdotes that would explain how they got into business and such.

 

I have an edited manuscript that I've written, about some of my adventures in car collecting.  I've talked to a few companies about getting it printed, and the problem that I've run into is that I want color pictures to go with each chapter.  A lot of small printer/publishers balk immediately when the subject of color pictures is raised.  I also want it to be a nicely done hardback book. 

 

I say that because, with the allure of brass lamps being the shine, you'd almost have to include some excellent pictures of select lamps.

 

I can also tell you that you'll have a lot of fun researching and writing, so go for it!

[1937hd45]

I would think the brass lamp companies had a lot of government business during WWI. Did they stay in the lamp business after the war and are they still part of companies that exist today? Bob 

Edited March 12, 2018 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[8E45E]

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎09 at 7:55 PM, Terry Bond said:

Here is a sampling of a few of the ads I've gathered - I especially like the Atwood Castle ad that lists cars using the lamps.  Amazing stuff from some of my early catalogs.

Terry

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It would be interesting to see if any were scripted with the end-user marque either on an attached tag, or stamped/engraved directly into the housing.

 

Here is E&J-made one for EMF:  

 

Craig

[lump]

Terry, how about an update? I am fascinated by the prospect of a book like this, written by someone like you. It would look great on my Christmas gift-ideas list! Sure hope you have decided to go ahead with this cool project. 

[Terry Bond]

Not really any updates/progress reports.  Still a nice idea that's not progressed much further.

 

The Clymer book Steve referred to is on my book-shelf but it's more of a picture book with little information.

 

One of our spark plug collectors has been collecting digital images of spark plugs and early advertisements from automotive trade publications. He has so far printed three volumes of those ads all in date order.  It's a great reference but we find little is available regarding the history of the companies that produced them. 

 

Same with lamps.  A simple date-ordered compendium of period advertising would provide some information, but without company histories or application info on which lamps were supplied with the cars that did provide them, the result would be not much more than another picture-book.

 

Searches for information are not easy and those early trade publications and periodicals (Horseless Age, Motor, etc) would be perhaps the most useful source of detailed info.  But-it's a page-by-page search in many cases, and there are many "rabbit holes"  in the process as one begins to research the names of principles in the companies.  Like the auto industry itself, there was a lot of cross-pollination as companies opened/closed, merged and bought each other. 

 

I've been going through my collection of early accessory catalogs and saving images for reference but other than that, nothing happening.  It would be a very time consuming project and that's something I just can't get involved with yet.

 

I'm not even sure how such a project should be organized.

 

I still like the idea and wouldn't mind doing it, but I don't need a full time job right now.

 

Terry

[lump]

As a person who has written, edited, and compiled several automotive-related books as well as several years worth of car magazines myself, I do understand. I'm not trying to prod...just very interested in the fascinating information such a book would offer. Best wishes. -----Jim W

[1912Staver]

On Solar brand brass lamps there is an I.D. number engraved into the nut that keeps the front lens ring fastened. I believe the first part of the I.D. number is the year that style of lamp was introduced. Can anyone confirm ?

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Layden B]

1912 Staver

Yes first part is year introduced. Some products were carried for quite a while such as carbide generators which were still being made more than 10 years later in the mid 1920s for use on trucks.

Suffix letters on sidelamps:

B for bail handle

C for combination, electric and oil. Some electric sockets that restorers assume were later modifications are actually factory!

[1912Staver]

Thanks Layden !

[AHa]

sounds interesting

Edited November 19, 2022 by AHa (see edit history)

[tom_in_nh]

I have an interest in early carbide lamps.

Might you have a recommendation for a bullet shaped headlamp, fit for a motorcycle? 

Automobile headlamps are a wee bit too large, while bicycle headlamps are too small.

Gents, please keep the flame lit !

 

[playswithbrass]

There were some pretty incredible advertisements in the early days of motoring. Here is one by Rushmore lamps

[TAKerry]

13 hours ago, tom_in_nh said:

I have an interest in early carbide lamps.

Might you have a recommendation for a bullet shaped headlamp, fit for a motorcycle? 

Automobile headlamps are a wee bit too large, while bicycle headlamps are too small.

Gents, please keep the flame lit !

 

We had the hardest time finding a lamp for our 1913 Rudge. My brother ran across one in an antique store by chance in NEPA (PA) coal country. 

[Terry Bond]

16 hours ago, tom_in_nh said:

I have an interest in early carbide lamps.

Might you have a recommendation for a bullet shaped headlamp, fit for a motorcycle? 

Automobile headlamps are a wee bit too large, while bicycle headlamps are too small.

Gents, please keep the flame lit !

 

Are you searching for the correct item for your motorcycle or will it be an aftermarket replacement? Photo or sketch and more specific info on your bike would be helpful. Few of that type were made for motorcycle use though.

Terry

[tom_in_nh]

Hi Terry,

Just trying to figure out what was used from the 1890's to early 1900's, specifically on a motorcycle of the time.

Photos and advertising pages would help.

A teardrop style appeals to me.

This is for a custom, period looking build that I have been sloooowly acquiring parts for. I am not against fabricating one from derelict parts, either.

Regards,

Tom

 

 

[1912Staver]

Most early motorcycles seem to have a motorcycle size version of a typical automotive headlight. { If they have lights at all, many don't } I have a friend who is quite involved with pre 1920 MC's. He always tells me to keep an eye out for MC lighting when I am at swap meets. Rare and expensive. 

 

 

[Terry Bond]

The Harley photo helps explain why the "torpedo" or "bullet" shaped lamps were not often seen on motorcycles in the gas-lamp era.  The method of mounting them generally left room for only a smaller lamp.  Very early motorcycles actually used bicycle style lamps and some were self-generating (without a separate carbide generator or prestolite tank).  Here are a few examples of very early motorcycle gas headlamps.

[midman]

Some motorcycle manufacturers used gas lamps all the way into the mid 1920’s, when most automotive manufacturers had switched to electric.

I have two 1924 bikes equipped this way. A Douglas and a Ner-A-Car. 
I’m looking for the Ner-A-Car set up as seen in the old picture if anyone should happen to come across one.

 

[Terry Bond]

The English made Lucas or P&H lamps are nearly identical to what is shown in your photos. They are fairly common. I recommend you check the UK ebay site frequently. Some earlier versions of those style lamps had some differences, but for the years you need it should be easy. I actually saw several nice ones at Hershey this year.  I have a P& H set on my 1912 Triumph.

Terry

 

[lump]

Hello, Terry. Just wondered if you decided to go ahead with this project? If so, I would like to buy the very first copy. 🙂