Were Dual Cowl Phaetons really only parade cars?

Have Dual Cowl Phaetons always been parade/collector cars from when they were new? I guess what I am saying is have they always been special one off show cars never intended to be used for everyday transportation?

Graham man, I am sure that was the case in that some were ordered for dignitaries or what have you, but not so sure the DCP was designed with parade use in mind. During the Classic Era, sport & speed was all about straight line, extended high speeds, and this was accomplished by big HP engines that required big chassis to house them. Open cars were sportier and I would envision a DCP as just as sporty as a roadster bodystyle. I see a car like the Duesy roaring accross a long open stretch more so than in a parade. Interesting how very very few, if any of us are likely old enough for an adult recollection of the Classic Era, and we have different impressions of what it may have been like. This could be an interesting thread..

Short answer, no. Thousands of DC Phaetons were produced over the years and sold out of the showroom like any other model.

I don't know if there were thousands made. Many Phaetons for sure but not so sure on the dual cowls. I would doubt there were 1000 total dual Cowls of all brands and all years but I have no way of proving that. Just a hunch.

Are there any companies that the records exist? say Cadillac DC Phaetons made?

1930 Graham Paige DC Phaeton

Note the multi hued paintjob and WWW on the Graham above, it seems this would be the type of bodystyle these would likely be fitted to.

Now somebody explain the difference between a touring car and a Phaeton... lol

Very rarely do I see historical parade photos showing dual-cowl phaetons with dignitaries in the back. They do not make good parade vehicles because of the second cowl. If you look back at historical photos of parades, they were usually open phaetons or tourings. The second cowl was very ergonomically useful in that it -- along with the rear windshield -- blocked the wind, just as the front windshield would. So they were, indeed, intended for every day transportation.

Generally speaking, the difference between a touring and a phaeton is 2-3 passengers: 4-5 in the phaeton, 7 in the touring.

Cadillac, Packard, Rolls and many others made DC Phaetons so I would think at least a few thousand were produced over the years. At least with Packard a Phaeton never has jump seats, a touring always does. Different length bodies at least in '32-'34.

Then there were some companies (ahem, GM), who referred to tourings and convertible sedans as phaetons. As Jeff says, generally speaking, tourings have jump seats and a longer body. There's a big difference in value between a true phaeton and a touring. Beware of sellers who call a touring a phaeton; they're usually trying to ride the coattails of phaeton values given in the price guides.

The best distinction between a touring and a phaeton is seen by looking at Ford. Model T's featured Runabouts and Tourings while the next year the Model A's were Roadsters and Phaetons. It is just whatever the manufacturer chose to call them.

It is just whatever the manufacturer chose to call them.

Many, many companies offered both a touring and a phaeton at the same time, so when someone asks what the difference is between them, I'm speaking of just the companies that offered both.

Now somebody explain the difference between a touring car and a Phaeton... lol

Poor people drove touring cars, rich people drove phaetons.

Steve

Now that's not true. The touring actually cost more than the phaeton... at least in the case of Packard.

West can chime in but I think phaeton was a later term--I do not recall any phaeton reference earlier than the mid-to-late 1920s. Seems like as a general rule LaydenB is correct that open cars with 5-7 passengers or more were tourings in the mid 1920s and earlier and by 1930 they had often become phaetons, Todd C

"Phaeton" in an earlier time is a carrage makers term for the 4 passenger open carrage with a colapsible top.

I admit I have seen very little actual period use photos of Dual Cowls. Mostly only in advertisements. I have seen a few late 1920s and early 1930s films that do show them. Last night on TCM they showed the 1932 MGM "GRAND HOTEL". In the final scene people were leaving the hotel. Greta Garbo in a Hispano Suisa Limo, Lionel Barrymore and Joan Crawford in a Town car style Taxi cab. Then a big European Dual Cowl shows up covered in road dirt. A newly wed couple with driving caps and goggles get out and the chauffer (also with goggles) is in the back. The chauffer lifts the hinged cowl and takes over driving the car to the garage. Both the front and rear windshields were folded down. Both the couple and chauffer were filthy from road dirt. So that is how the sporting set drove these cars.

Larry

LARRY, I don't think I've ever seen anyone emerge from the rear compartment of a dual cowled phaeton. I'll have to look for that movie. Seems to me, one would need a chauffeur's help to get out of there. The secondary windshield would have weighed a ton. I'm sure they didn't have hydraulic assist struts on the lids but some might have been counter sprung, like postwar alligator-style hoods.

I like the image of a wealthy owner driving himself on a long trip, top down, then having his chauffeur go park the car.

Rob:

A 733 Packard I had seen under restoration was countersprung and was as easy to lift as a normal trunk lid. (Not the trunk on my 37 Buick though its heavy).

But I should have had to take some pictures. Maybe the next car show where one shows up someone may take some video of emerging passengers.

Larry

LARRY, I don't think I've ever seen anyone emerge from the rear compartment of a dual cowled phaeton. I'll have to look for that movie. Seems to me, one would need a chauffeur's help to get out of there. The secondary windshield would have weighed a ton. I'm sure they didn't have hydraulic assist struts on the lids but some might have been counter sprung, like postwar alligator-style hoods.

I like the image of a wealthy owner driving himself on a long trip, top down, then having his chauffeur go park the car.

If you can find the movie Hot Saturday, you can see Cary Grant emerge from the back seat of a Cadillac dual cowl phaeton and later, his girl friend after his chauffeur drives her home. The movie was made in 1932, one of Cary Grant's first starring roles. He plays a millionaire playboy.

I think they had spring loaded struts like today's only with coil springs inside, or some other type of spring assist.

The movie was on Youtube, I looked for it but could only find a clip.

In the early days nearly all cars were tourings. The closed body became popular in the mid twenties but some people still preferred an open car. The second windshield must have been added as hiway speeds increased, to better protect the rear seat passengers.

Touring cars were always windy in the back seat. In 1911 the Fryer company had an accessory windshield that could be mounted behind the front seat. This folded down. When the rear passengers were seated you could unfold this and pull it back in front of the passengers. There was a canvass that snapped in place to prevent the wind from going under the windshield. I have one on my 1916 Peerless, works good. Kind-ah pre-dates when most people think dual-cowled phaetons began. RHL

All the Graham-Paige DC I have seen (3) have had the spring assist to lift the cowl.

PS the black and white picture of the Graham DC is the same car used in the parade in 1930 that carried the three Graham brothers. (I am guessing it was new then)

Is this the Graham Paige that once belonged to the Craven Foundation in Canada?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]167225[/ATTACH]My grandfather had two dual cowl phaetons, a 1930 Lincoln and a 1933 Chrysler Imperial.

This is the Marjorie Merriweather Post car, it is the only 1932-33 Chrysler Imperial CL with a LeBaron dual cowl phaeton body (the body came from her 1931 CG), the other CL phaetons were LeBaron dual windshield D/W (no rear compartment cowl).

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My grandfather had two dual cowl phaetons, a 1930 Lincoln and a 1933 Chrysler Imperial. The Lincoln was a bit challenging to get in and out of, but it was a spectacular car.

Steve

Is this your grandfather's car? This photo was taken last year in my brother's driveway. He was cleaning it up for the owner so that it could be sold, making sure it ran properly and put new tires on it. The car is now in Wisonsin, but it "came in" from the east. Maryland, I believe.

This photo shows the spring-loaded supports/hinges/brackets for the Lincoln.

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Is this the GrahamPaige that once belonged to the Craven Foundation in Canada?<o:p></o:p>

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<o:p> </o:p>Yes I believe so. It was in a fire at theCraven Foundation and rebuilt with whatever parts were available. It was then sold to the JEM museum in PA and sold when they closed. I believe the car is now in Arizona with new colors.

If this is the car Craven's had they were missing all the irons and bows for the top. We modified a set of Packard irons to their specifications, made them in stainless and provided bows to match. This was some time prior to 1990.

That would make the time line complete. I would guess the fire was just prior to that date. Nice looking car, not sure how much of the original is still there. I was told all the front sheet metal was also replaced with "close" parts.

I've wondered what happened to the Craven Foundation car collection. I hope the fire was caused by careless smoking - that would serve the owners right. (Craven A is a cigarette brand of Rothmans, Benson & Hedges.)

WEST, thanks for this photo of the workings of a rear windshield cowl. Beautiful fittings and it doesn't look as awkward to climb out of as I thought.

This is the Marjorie Merriweather Post car, it is the only 1932-33 Chrysler Imperial CL with a LeBaron dual cowl phaeton body (the body came from her 1931 CG), the other CL phaetons were LeBaron dual windshield D/W (no rear compartment cowl).

This is correct. My grandfather bought the car in the early 1970s from a well-known Chrysler collector who told him the car was a made-up creation with no value. Grandpa just liked the way it looked, and bought it for little money. Later, the car's provenance was documented. Unfortunately, he died before the car's restoration was completed.

Steve

Is this your grandfather's car? This photo was taken last year in my brother's driveway. He was cleaning it up for the owner so that it could be sold, making sure it ran properly and put new tires on it. The car is now in Wisonsin, but it "came in" from the east. Maryland, I believe.

No, that's not his car. I saw it at Hershey in the car corral in 2011. It looks more or less the same as when I sold it. The top has been replaced and the paint has been touched up. Grandpa restored it himself in the late 60s and then drove the wheels off of it. It's the one car I really regret selling, and some day I hope to have it back again.

The one every Ford lover would like to have.

l have a 1930 Graham 621 Dual Cowl edentically to the one mentioned above.

Do sombody know how many were made? My car was imported to Norway in 1931.

The car is complete and is a greate project.

I'll be doing an 1104 Sport Phaeton soon. Packard offered the 5P phaeton, 5P Sport Phaeton (dual cowl) and the 7P Touring on all of the available chassis combinations except the 1100 an 1103 (short WB 5P sedans, 8 and Su8). We have all new spring assist tubes and hinges and have to build the missing cowl. Not an uncommon occurrence, once the sport phaetons became used cars several folks ditched the second cowl for easier use. I'm sure many cowls were left in garages and eventually scrapped. Yes, the 1104 is the real deal with special center vent doors, a unique front seat back sheet metal panel, and of course the 761 body type stamped in the wood and on the cowl tag. Should be a fun project.

Have Dual Cowl Phaetons always been parade/collector cars from when they were new? I guess what I am saying is have they always been special one off show cars never intended to be used for everyday transportation?

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Something some people may not be aware of is this was also a popular style of boat during this period having both dual and triple cowls. I don't know if the boats copied cars or the other way around but it was definitely a sign the purchaser had spent the extra bucks for the sports version.

Howard Dennis