Recasting/reversing engineering parts

I need to recast some die cast door hardware for a car of the twenties I am trying to restore. Has anyone had experience recasting parts for automobiles? I have been studying this issue for some time and am at the point of trying to do it. Who else is familier with process? I would like to discuss this at length.

It is a useful skill in restoration to develope. For years I have wanted to do a spell of work in a foundry, or do a foundry course. The "beep"past politicians in their ignorance apparently decided that this country no longer had need for foundry skills and training; so there is no longer any such course in Australia. I recently met the man who ran the course in Melbourne for decades. He continued it for six years after the institution decided to close it down. (He kept plugging the fuses back in.) The UN took him to China to set up foundry schools across the country; but he no sooner arrived than the Red Army started to drive their tanks over their democracy protesters, and the UN had Jim out of there in a flash.

A few days ago, Jim and two of his friends from the model engineers club visited for most of a day, to talk about and look at things of mutual interest. My son at I are going to spend a day with him in several weeks time, to start learning the craft hands-on with him, which is the only way you can really learn. There is just so much casting involved in restoring old motor cars, even as basic as making your own pistons. You can certainly melt aluminium in a small electric kiln. A lot of smaller foundry work can be done in a 10ft square garden shed.

Maybe for practicality you could locate a model engineers group near you via the internet. A lot of these blokes are probably highly skilled and retired; and someone might even do the quality work you need for a consideration; or might let you work with them so you train to do it yourself as we shall do.

I can give you titles and authors of good books you can find on the internet; but no book is really good until you make a start.

I need to recast some die cast door hardware for a car of the twenties I am trying to restore. Has anyone had experience recasting parts for automobiles? I have been studying this issue for some time and am at the point of trying to do it. Who else is familier with process? I would like to discuss this at length.

I would suggest that you might observe artist foundry work being done in your area. There is probably one or more reasonably nearby. You might just get them to cast small pieces. Those folks typically work with brass which of course would make plating a snap. Commercial foundries working in aluminum, aluminum alloys or iron probably won't give you the time of day.

Jim

A while back there was a thread ( in the Hupmobile section) on the lost wax process ,but now I can't find it . Perhaps the moderator can bring it back ?

Also you might search youtube for the same . I have found many good instructional videos there .

I learned sand casting in an old chicken coop from a friend ,we were both about sixteen years old .

Good luck ,Ken

We used to do our own brass and aluminum foundry work but found it far more economical to farm it out to a local foundry. We still have many dozens of brass and aluminum castings made locally each year. Something like intricately patterned door handles would benefit from the lost wax process in that it preserves every detail however small they might be. About 3 years ago we had interior handles lost wax cast for a Kissel we were restoring, cost was about $100/handle.

Tell me more about the lost wax process, and how do you account for shrinkage.

Hi

Generally in lost wax casting a wax mold of the original is carved (actual piece and a pour hole) and investment plaster is poured around the wax. The entire plaster block is then baked in an oven to remove the wax.

We usually would drill small holes for venting and prop the hollow plaster mold in a vat of sand for holding. Heat up a batch of metal and carefully pour into the mold. Once it has cooled, break away the plaster. The plaster is a one time mold.

If it's a small item you can buy/make a centrifical casting machine to help force the molten metal into the mold.

Thanks

If you are looking for someplace that does great work, AmericanArrow in Detroit is the place. Not cheap, but quality work. Here is a link to their web site.

American Arrow Don Sommer

While not wanting to discourage you from learning a new skill, this company may already make what you are looking for.

Welcome

David

1923 Metallurgique Torpedo

1931 Rolls Royce Phantom 2 Continental

1940 Ford Deluxe Coupe

1947 Mercury Coupe

Unless you are very knowledgeable and have and use the proper safety gear, working with molten metal can be very unforgiving. And when it goes awry it is usually very fast and serious. Either apprentice with a pro or farm it out..............Bob

I need to recast some die cast door hardware for a car of the twenties I am trying to restore. Has anyone had experience recasting parts for automobiles? I have been studying this issue for some time and am at the point of trying to do it. Who else is familiar with process? I would like to discuss this at length.

HarryJ,

If you would like replica parts investment cast, I'm your man...

My foundry can take your original part, put it on a "rotisserie"and create a digital file, wax print that file and recast in stainless steel. We do not cast "pot metal" or die casting alloys, but polished 17-4 stainless looks like chrome, and it is a whole lot stronger. This is what "bob's" is selling for the footrest bar brackets for the back of my '40 buick Ltd. since the die cast parts are no longer obtainable, my replacements are stainless steel.

Send me a PM w/ your contact info, and we'll talk.

Mike in Colorado

BCA#45728

:)

AACA# 994416

Harry,

This article may help you.

http://www.metroccca.org/tech_articles/tech_09_winter.pdf

The intent was to make a pattern and make any modifications to the pattern (if necessary) without damaging or risk losing the original part.

Chris W.

Folks.........Thanx for the responses.............this is a great start!

Ivan, That's why I am here, You have some very/extremely interesting project cars! Please elaborate. Post some pictures.

Jim, Thanx, I did some some rough castings (sand) at a local art foundry. Good suggestion. This system works great for certain parts: however, for what I am trying to produce it will not work.

Ken thank you Afriend and I built a crude blast furnace in his back yard using a reversed vacuum cleaner, a piece of 12" steel pipe lined with casting sand, limestone, coke, iron ore to create cast iron. We were 12 years old. I grew up in the Pittsburg of the south, Birmingham.

Restorer 32 The local/ regional foundries can't produce what I need. I need a lost wax/investment cast piece. People arround me can't do it to the right size or detail.

DavidAU, Thanx, I am aware of these folks. There are some folks in Great Britian who reproduced a Bugatti who I think will out do these folks; however I would like to talk with your recommendation..

Bhigdog.....THANKS!!!, Safety is #1 Molten metal will put more than the hurt to you!

Flyer,,,,,,,,,I will send you a PM. Let's talk.

Frairtuck,,,,,,lets talk.

Stainless steel castings are nice but generally you will lose detail and it's a bear to polish. Shrinkage is also larger with stainless than with bronze.

I guess it should be "shrinkage is greater" not "larger".

Plaster casting can be done in a small home shop and the detail is very good. There is also less shrinkage than with the lost wax process.

With lost wax you get double shrink on your part. The wax shrinks and the metal shrinks.

So you need to change the pattern to acommodate this.

Stereo Lithography patterns can be made with any amount of shrink taken care of.

Then you can make a wax copy of them. They are very expensive to have one-offs done.

Rubber spin-casting process can capture great detail, but does have some shrinkage.

Both of these can use ZA or white metal alloys which plate very well. Added aluminum and copper will make them very strong.

One part I am working on is the King Seely gas gauge for a REO. Very difficlut part to reproduce. I am using the lost wax process for this as the detail is very small in the inside and the original housings are so fragile.

They won't stand up to the pressure of vulcanizing a rubber mold for them.

Where are you located?

King Seeley housings available at:

King Seeley and Hobson Fuel Gauge Parts and Supplies

Not the one I am making. Looks like most all others, though.

Don't forget Jerry Verdone. He's cast some things for me. He works from whatever is left of your parts or from your pattern. He also has a large stock of parts he's cast already. Reasonable prices, too.

Phil

Sounds like he does sandcasting. Don't understand why he doesn't machine the parts.

Stainless isn't that hard to machine with regular shop tools.

Stainless castings, due to the necessarily high pouring temperature, shrins more than most other metals.

shrinks not shrins

No, Verdone doesn't use sand casting. He makes a mold from your part, but he's not specific about how it's done... trade secret.

Phil

The shrink factor on stainless is no worse than aluminum for most purposes.

I used 300 series stainless for most of my parts, over the years.

Plaster molds are cheap to make, but a bear to keep from breaking as you kiln them to dry them out.

Adding fullers earth to plaster will make it stronger, after you put on the first layer to capture detail.

Lots of tricks to the trade.....

shrinks not shrins

Don't be so hard on yourself.

Don't forget Jerry Verdone. He's cast some things for me. He works from whatever is left of your parts or from your pattern. He also has a large stock of parts he's cast already. Reasonable prices, too.

Phil

Unfortunately, Jere passed away about 1 1/2 years ago. His wife Marge has taken over. She casted a couple of nice SS parts for me about a year ago. Recent attempts to contact her thru email have not rec'd a reply. Probably best to try a phone contact. Joe

I'm sorry to hear Jerry passed. Marge & helpers had a table of recast parts at Hershey last year, I think. They often made extras, so might be worth checking to see what they have in stock before you get something cast.

Phil

Here is a site shows the lost form casting.

backyardmetalcasting.com

Vern

Interestingly, I just sourced some info on this subject on the net last week. Looking to recast some Door Handles for a 1935 - 36 WILLYS 77 - specifically the Exterior Passenger Side Locking Handle and the Rear Door Locking Handle for a Panel Delivery - IF I can locate one, that is! Also the other problem is going to be finding a BRIGGS & STRATTON style Lock Cylinder to put in the handle! Any ideas, suggestions? Many thanks, eh.

I have found locks by going to swap meets with your old handle.

Note how the lock assembly is held in your handle.

A lot of them use a small pin that you can remove and slide out the cylinder.

Compare the door handles to find one that has the same style of key and the same retainer setup.

Buy one with a key, that works and you may have one for your handle.

Well Coley, I really appreciate the post as I have tried the Hemmings Key Guys and posted here on the forum with absolutely no success. One problem seems to be the manner in which the lock cylinders were manufactured as the cylinder seizes in the handle and then apparently disintegrates when yu try to take it apart. With a swap meet coming up, I'll have to pick up some handles (with keys?) and see what I can come up with. MAHALO!

ANYONE HAVE ANY BRIGGS & STRATTON KEYS AND / OR LOCK CYLINDERS LAYING ABOUT THAT WOULD BE FOR SALE??? I'D BE INTERESTED.

TechShop is a great place to learn skills needed to make castings, do wood working, welding sandblasting and powder coasting, etc.......I'm planning a few projects for my '36 Hupp D618 like door panels, trunk shelf etc, but they have everything required to learn & make casting dies, from laser scanning to CAD software to CNC mills etc. to replicate hard to find mechanical parts.

http://www.techshop.ws/

I tried to reproduce a locking handle for a Whippet for White Post Restorations last year. I bought handles from different vendors but nothing was good enough to take a part to get the cylinder out.

The handles were originally made to NEVER be taken apart, so I took the handle away from the cylinder on one and took the cylinder away from handle on another to try to get a usable handle. None of the cylinders were good enough to use.

Finally bought a new handle for a storage box on eBay. The cylinder had a key with NO Code cut into it. You could unlock the lock with your pocket knife.

Sent the cylinder and a handle to White Post to chrome it and assemble it. The non-locking handles that I made for them came out fine.

I don't do locking handles anymore, that aren't GM.