National Meet Judging Yes or No Survey

[Guest my3buicks]

I have received enough feedback in both directions to warrant some discussion on the issue of having every national meet judged. I can see both sides of the fences thoughts and issues. I feel this is something that we need to get a pulse of all the members on. I will also ask the board to put the question out to the general membership as a whole. Your thoughts?

[Guest my3buicks]

My personal opinion - yes, all National meets should be judged. There are many reasons I lean on the yes side. First and formost is continuity - for a judging program to work smoothly, it needs to be used every year and this goes beyond just the administrational logistics. You get members that look forward to judging, building on their judging points. You get members in the pipeline improving their cars, and they then have to wait an additional year to see if their work paid off, you take the chance of "putting off" possible new members that just bought and restored a Buick. Would you really want to have just finished a fresh restoration and wait a year to have it judged in a national meet? With the National meet moving around it is not always possible for members to attend a national - for example, you just finished your restoration on your Buick, the National meet is held in California and you live in Maine, let's face it, not everyone has the luxury of having the time or money to travel across the country. The following year, the National is a non-judged meet, so once again your car goes unjudged. I think this could push members or possible members into other judged venues such as AACA - with the attitude of "heck" with the BCA.

Another issue, is it fair for any chapter to host a non-judged meet, reep the possible financial benefits of having a national without it really being a "complete" national.

Would/will this set a trend - will chapters start wanting to host non-judged nationals?

There is much to think on and ponder on this issue.

[Pete Phillips]

Keith,

I completely agree with you. Even though it is a lot of extra work, expense, and headache to have a judged meet, it is something that should be offered. No one is forced to enter their car for judging, but at least it is an option and something to aspire to as we restore our cars. I've never done any better than a silver award at a national meet, and I sometimes get frustrated with the trend towards "the bigger your checkbook is, the more chance you have of getting a Senior award", but it is still something that should be a part of a National Meet for those who like authenticity and preservation of antique cars. This is just my own opinion as a long-time member, and not necessarily the opinion of the BCA.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

[old-tank]

Keith

"The Buick Club of America is a non-profit membership corporation dedicated to the preservation and restoration of those vehicles built by the Buick Motor Division of General Motors Corporation."

"BCA National Awards are based on how well the vehicle

compares to the original factory product as judged under the

BCA 400-point system."

A club with these philosophies needs to have judging at every national meet.

Willie

[Buicksplus]

BCA Friends:

My cars have never been judged by BCA and have little interest in the judged aspects of the shows, though I love looking at all the cars -- including beautifully restored ones.

I have organized several large car events, the problems of finding decent judges and resolving conflicts over results is a genuine pain in the neck. This gets harder and harder every year as the older experts that really know these cars become less able to crawl around cars all day on a 100 degree show field (usually with little shade!)

I know that judging means a lot to some members. What some clubs have done is introduce a very difficult to qualify "concours" section of their meets. This at least reduces the load on judging by limiting entrants to just a few very high end entries. These concours cars can be displayed in the shade or inside somewhere and this way the stress and load on the judges is much less.

Sure, judging is fine but practically speaking, it is getting harder and harder to do it right. I would expand the easier to administer awards, like oldest car, distance driven, driven award, participant judging, etc.

PS I thought the Flint centennial unjudged meet was one of the finest shows I have ever attended. Could you imagine the boredom of simply announcing hundreds of first, seconds, and thirds to the thousands of lovely Buicks that came to this meet?

[Guest my3buicks]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PS I thought the Flint centennial unjudged meet was one of the finest shows I have ever attended. Could you imagine the boredom of simply announcing hundreds of first, seconds, and thirds to the thousands of lovely Buicks that came to this meet? </div></div>

I think all would agree to this, and I think most would agree that special meet would certainly be an exception to a having a judged meet.

[Bill Stoneberg]

I, for one, will miss the judging. Plus I will finally have a car worthy of being judged in time for Flint. So I am being selfish here.

I can see why for the 100 th anniversy that you couldn't judge. It would have been a zoo. But are you really expecting to have that amount of cars again ?

[Guest AWBE]

I think we should definetly have judged meets--IF the judge is actually competant in the class he judges in.

[imported_buick5563]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I, for one, will miss the judging. Plus I will finally have a car worthy of being judged in time for Flint. So I am being selfish here.

</div></div>

This is exactly why it needs to be judged. There are members who have worked for YEARS restoring a single car. Bill's car will possibly be a 400 point car by the time it is finished, will it be 392 the next year? Probably not, but it is hard to drive a freshly restored car before it has been judged on a National scale.

My opinion, only...

Mike

[Mark Shaw]

As a relatively new member of BCA that has never had and probably never will have any of my cars judged, I agree that all BCA national meets should have judging available for all classes. However, cars should be roughly classified prior to acceptance for "finite" judging.

Any car that is less than a 300-350 point car does not need to be judged to the degree that a 375-400 point car needs. A minimum point level for "finite" judging could be set according to how many higher point cars participate in each class for each meet.

This could relieve some of the burden on the judges.

Mark Shaw

[Guest 70 Electra]

I vote a strong, emphatic, "YES". Club by-laws should be revised to mandate judging at National Meets. THREE reasons....

1. The club keeps wringing its collective hands about getting younger members, and I think this is a part of problem. (Not all of it, but PART of it)

Think about it. Members that are younger (i.e. non-retired) and have young kids, often have a difficult time dealing with both the time and money commitment of traveling to a National Meet....especially when it is waaay across the country. For some, it becomes (of necessity) "THE" annual vacation. Now that is a big commitment to make to a "hobby". After all that, you tell him that he can't get his car judged? So he's supposed to simply come back "next year"? One could ask why risk bringing a high quality car across country if it can't be officially recognized by the club's very own "yardstick": the 400-point system?

Also consider what other clubs do. For example, where would the NCRS or AACA be if they only judged one event per year (and even at that, skipped every 5th year or so)? "Hershey? Oh, that's our BIG meet.....we can't judge at THAT event!"

2. Since we have steadfastly refused to allow a Buick to be judged in more than one class at the same meet (e.g. Archival, AND 400-point), anyone wishing to do so must wait a minimum of one year. And that's assuming the subsequent events are within traveling distance, etc., etc.

3. As another member pointed out on this thread, the preservation and recognition of the authenticity of Buicks, is a charter purpose of our club. Regardless of whether you personally have a car to be judged, you cannot deny this key duty of the club. In this regard there is an outright OBLIGATION to provide reasonably accessible judging forums, such as National Meets. With only one National Meet per year, and the geographic issues associated with that, I think the LEAST the club can do is to provide "once per year" minimum opportunity for National Award judging.

(And by the way, no disrespect is intended to the fine people of the Flint chapter that are looking to host the 2008 Meet. They've done a fabulous job in the past and I'm sure they will do so again.)

[caGSxlr8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I think we should definetly have judged meets--IF the judge is actually competant in the class he judges in. </div></div>

Having a competant judge or team of judges is key... I recently attended a local AACA regional meet and the judging in my class was a joke. I will never attend that meet again and it really made me appreciate the judging teams put together by the BCA. I appreciate anyone who gives up there time to learn how to judge correctly and spend the day judging but I think it would be better to not judge at all if there is not an experienced team. I wish I had more time to get involved with judging but I am one of those people that at this time barely has enough time attend a show more than once a year. Maybe as my kids get older I will have more time <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I for one look forward to being judged at a National meet just so that I can learn what needs to be improved. I don't think it would be fair to just have judging for the "high" end restoration cars.

[NTX5467]

I will "abstain" from voting in this survey. I believe I can predict the results from my gut suspicion.

Judging (and the quality thereof) has been strong at the BCA National Meets for a long time. Many dedicated individuals make that whole deal happen, from the orchestration of the Judges Training to the tabulation teams--there's a lot more there than many might suspect. Dealing with the way the BCA 400 Point System is configured is definitely different than what you might find at any other similar event where awards are 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.

The idea of pre-screening the cars to see what ones might score where might be called "benchmark judging", where you take the top five to really scrutinize as the others are judged "more quickly" or deemed to be more for display rather than full blown judging. In the 1st, 2nd, 3rd place orientation, it can work well, but in a judging scheme where points are deducted and you don't know quite where things might end up unless you do a full blown judging effort on the vehicle, benchmark judging/screening would not be, in my mind, appropriate.

Every entrant can request their vehicle's judging sheet as an indication of where improvements are needed, so in order to do that, each vehicle must be fully judged. What might have been considered "not worthy of being fully judged", with a copy of the 400 Point System judging sheet, might return the next year to be a Silver instead. Therefore, it would seem that each vehicle needs to be judged to the same level of intensity and scrutiny as others in that same class, regardless of what the final point total might be.

I believe that if you read the BCA judging documents, it desires that all BCA chapter/regional shows be judged by the 400 Point System. This gives (or is supposed to give) continuity and credibility to the awards, but it sounds so strange to those not aware of how it works to see no "1st Place" awards presented, rather than the best car there receiving 1st Place. At the local chapter/regional shows, one issue would be that only currently-BCA-trained judges do the judging, rather than someone "new" to the system and the way it works (i.e., no judges training as at the BCA National Meet). So, several side issues to consider, for what it's worth.

Respectfully,

NTX5467

[Buicksplus]

Sounds like everyone wants judging and judges who know what they're doing, but few volunteer to do it -- either because they don't have the expertice or time. I can understand it, going to a meet is not nearly as much fun when you must spend hours trying to look objectively at lots of cars, many with fairly severe shortcomings in historical accuracy and quality.

If judging is going to survive long term, pre-screening cars is probably inevitable. Judging won't die because people don't want it -- it will die because you can't staff it properly.

I note that VMCCA introduced a rather small extra fee ($15) at its events if the entrant asked for judging. That really cut down on the requests for judging! I think BCA should do the same (perhaps they do) it might reduce frivolous requests to judge cars.

Bill, Albuquerque, NM

[Guest imported_Thriller]

It's a good question...I have no idea what my answer is. Rochester will only be my second National and the first at which I have car(s). I like the idea of getting something for getting the car there, but with the driven award, that can pretty much happen.

If a car pretty much has to be a trailer queen to get sufficient points for the top awards, then it isn't for me. If the regional meets all have judging to the same standard as the National, then the reasoning about maintaining status of the car and distance to a judged meet become much less of an objection...of course, that may be a big if.

The judge meet for our local club has pretty much died. There wasn't a whole lot to it, but inconsistencies in number of volunteer judges, quality of judging, and other factors have probably made for its downfall. Of course there is also the attitude that members know what is wrong with their cars and they don't need other club members to tell them...problem with that is we don't have the depth of knowledge to know what year Brand X switched from clamp style A to B, so it wasn't the same level of judging.

Anyway, I've rambled on long enough...I think I perhaps spoiled my ballot <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Guest BJM]

YES you need judging.

1. Going without judging will dilute the quality of the judging and the integrity of the preservation of fctory correct cars.

2. This is the "Super Bowl" of Buicks. If you can't compete at this highest of levels (if desired) then I think you deprive those who go through lengthy and expensive restorations of a chance to shine on the biggest stage possible. There are classes for all sorts of Buicks at a National meet and I think you can show your Buick and still not have it judged.

Judging creates a standard of excellence (400 points) to show what a classic Buick looked like when it left the factory. Any move away from judging on an annual basis will over time dimimish this standard.

I will be a first time judge at the Rochester meet in the 49-53 car class. I have been studying my literature and my shop manuals as well as my own 49 Buick. I am 42 years old. I hope to continue my judging after this meet. I would suspect it's a never ending learning process but if I get encouragement this year and things go well, I will continue. In 5 years I should be pretty good at this class. I also have a strong interest in the 66-70 Rivieras.

No offense ever to the plus 70 year folks in the club but I think with the 49-53 class I am doing more of a service to the BCA because judges for these older cars may drop off. If I can get up to speed with competent skills in the next 2-3 years I can be of service as a judge for the next 30 years and pass the torch on to younger members later on.

The AACA has a tougher job because of the variety of entrants. I would not want to judge a multi-make meet and that is why, a great as the AACA is, America needs single make clubs like the BCA, Cadillac LaSalle, etc.

[The Old Guy]

As is pointed out by many of the members of this forum, the major problem with judging is getting "competent" judges.Cars are judged , not to the standard of "factory"!! Buicks came from the factory with sags and orange peel in the paint. They also came with door and trim fits that left much to be desired. it is my contention that a "30s-40s" Buick that was put in a hermetically sealed container would only win a bronze or silver award.

[NTX5467]

Yes, "over-restoration" will ALWAYS be a problem for judges to deal with. With some makes, it has been observed to be worse than with others and can vary from one club (local, regional, national, marque to marque) to another. I concur, if a "end of the assembly line correct" vehicle (which I understand is the BCA's Standard of Judging) is put next to a "restored" vehicle, all of the original "uh ohs" of the assembly line would result in a less than 400 point score. Key point . . . "restoration" has many meanings to many people . . . are they to be done "to an as-produced standard" or "as we desire to remember them" or "as we desire others to remember them"?

When I attended the Classic Chevy Convention's national show in Dallas back in teh 1980s at Doran Chevrolet, EVERY '57 Chevy had perfectly aligned side mouldings, flawless paint (glossier than the old lacquer ever was!), and perfect body fits. You might call that "evolutionary" as the quality of vehicles has to increase every year, but when THAT becomes the standard rather than "end of the assembly line", are we being as historically accurate as many in almost any marque club on the planet desire their club's national meets to be? In one respect, some of these "accurately restored" vehicles (according to those involved) could well be termed "modified" due to the amount of extra work that went into them to make them "perfect"--not to get into a discussion of "stock" vs. "modifed" here, but you see what I'm getting at.

And that doesn't start to address the issue of other car shows where grossly over-restored vehicles always win--not only the judged votes but also the vote of the public. Shiney black chassis and underbody parts that NEVER were finished to that gloss by GM or Ford or whoever are a MAJOR observed indiscretion. It shows better than what really came from the factory, but the public's desire to see it that way tends to make it "acceptable" rather than incorrect. A definite perception gap has existed on this point for many years! I believe that the BCA Judging Manual states that over-restoration is to be "neutral" (i.e., no point deductions) in nature and not rewarded (which might mean "Don't do it if you're not going to be rewarded for it").

I concur that judging a single marque event (as the BCA National Meet, or similar) would be easier than a multi-marque event (as the AACA National Meet) might be. In some respects, you can go by general trends of vehicle production and spot over-restorations pretty easily plus incorrect items, but picking nits would be best done in a single marque event.

The other thing about assembly line produced vehicles is that "they're not all the same", but they can be. Some variables exist with different plants, different shifts, and even different workers on those different shifts at the different plants. Sure, there was an assembly manual for each vehicle going down the line and workers were instructed of how to perform their jobs, but it's the "implementation" that can make the difference. Like how heavy of an inspection mark might be on a particular bolt of how low the paint supply might get in a particular inspection stamp might be before it's refilled. Of how heavy the underbody undercoat might generally be or it if was more of a mist rather than a solid coat. Many variables that you can only see a general trend with only if you look at many similar cars to see how it was supposed to be done. At some events, that's really picking nits, in others, it's normal proceedure to look at them.

Now, on the other side of things, it IS commendable that we try to make our vehicles "as perfect" as they can be. It's normal to want the doors to align perfectly, or the hood, or the deck lid and some tweeks are somewhat expected if we want things to look as good as they can--but doing special body work to make those things "work" when they didn't from the factory could be going a little too far for an "as built" vehicle. These would be judgment calls that we'll all make in the restoration of a vehicle, but how significant they might be can get into the "historically correct" issues and picking some nits. And cleaning up those extra globs of adhesive from the weatherstrips can make things look better too.

One some marques, the inspection stamps/marks are highly judged items. Putting them back as they were before they were cleaned off in the restoration process can mean the difference in winning and losing, sometimes. Picture documentation is key in these things too! Just as "non-coated" metal items on the underbody are significant issues in the higher level judgings. Knowing what you're looking at is a key issue with any judging activity, plus being particular enough to know then they are not there OR if there was a mid-year production change on these items.

It IS commendable that 3Jakes is doing his homework on the class he plans on judging in. Plus that he's planning on doing it for many more years. A great orientation!

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest my3buicks]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As is pointed out by many of the members of this forum, the major problem with judging is getting "competent" judges.Cars are judged , not to the standard of "factory"!! Buicks came from the factory with sags and orange peel in the paint. They also came with door and trim fits that left much to be desired. it is my contention that a "30s-40s" Buick that was put in a hermetically sealed container would only win a bronze or silver award. </div></div>

Joe, I am going to disagree with you on this one, I know of several BCA Senior cars that are wearing the same clothes they came from the factory with.

[serb]

Most of the reasons have already been kicked back and forth through this thread so I will not go into it again. I will just say, JUDGE THEM!

Stevo

[Guest wildcat62]

Absolutely, yes!

How else are some of us younger members going to learn? I'm not a new member to the BCA. I've been Amember for 15 years but I am 31 years old. I learned more at Batavia and Lincolnshire this year than in the previous 14 years. Learning to judge gives us an opportunity to develop a better eye for cars and be able to see fit, condition, maintenance, preservation and restoration. It will allow you to have a better attention to detail and I have developed much more appreciation for cars and the work owners put into them.

I'm not just talking about trailer queens, but instead real cars that people drive. You can tell pretty quickly the different types and the judging class does point out to not penalize obvious new stone chips and to not award for better than factory. I'm very glad I did it and happy to see the youth judging class than Jerry Bodden does.

BCA judging is not perfect, but it's pretty darn good. And it is optional. For me, I intend to use judging as a tool to continually improve upon the car. Someone else can find things I miss. Heck, that's why we used to proof one another's papers essays, right? I never expect to win an award. For me, judging allows me to continue to preserve my cars, which is the most important thing to me.

I guess if there was going to be any change to judging I'd like to see the same system we used in Lincolnshire at the Regional meet. If you are going to register your car for judging, I think you ought to be required to judge or work in administration. It seems fair to me. It only seems like so much work because we usually don't have enough people. More people would get us finished much faster.

My two cents...or maybe three, even.

Kris Syrdal

62 Wildcat

67 Riviera

72 Riviera

[Guest Tom]

Well said Kris

[Bhigdog]

Judge em. If you don't what's the point........Bob.

[Guest Skyking]

Keith, sorry, but I always felt, unless most of the obvious work, which includes (body work, & paint) was done by the owner, then the trophy is meaningless. There's too many restoration shops taking the credit for finished cars....This is only my 2 cents, but I never felt it was fair.

[JohnD1956]

I think judging is essential to the National Meet, and I wonder if it could be done a bit differently to lighten the load on the judges and make the day of the big show easier for everyone. I'm not talking about changing the 400 point system but instead changing the time frame when the judging is done.

It occured to me in Batavia that if judging was done at the pre-judging inspection and picture taking time, then by the day of the meet the pressure would be off the judges. This would allow the judges to spend more time with the car, at the members convenience, and the day of the show more people could enjoy the rest of the cars and comaradie the meet should be generating.

I haven't had my cars formally judged, and am not likely to do so. But I know one member who sat at his car most of the day with his top up and windows shut just to be bypassed when he left the car for a few minutes. In his case the judges did come back but it made me think it was sad that this person could not look around and visit with other members except those in his class. By the time his car was done he did miss some of us up in the drivers class.

Just my 2 cents

JD

[Guest GS70Stage1]

I vote yes to judging at least once per year. I have not been involved in BCA much and didn't realize until I got to Flint it wasn't going to be a judged show. After taking the training and joining the judge team in Batavia, I understand why it would be impossible for 2,000 cars at the Flint 100th. Flint folks: please don't take any offense here. I had a fantastic time and will remember it all forever. I spent most of a year putting a 30+ year old car back together and wanted to get the opinion of the professionals. When I got the judge form in Batavia I was elated and felt the judges had been more than fair, to the point of complementary.

As much as I want my car judged (and am seriously going for gold in Rochester), the awards ceremony doesn't do anything for me. I love the banquet and think the professional show in Flint is a better end than walking the stage. I want the plaque and maybe a gold medilian for the grill. I can't think of a faster way to present so many plaques if it is done at the dinner. I would be willing to sit at a round table or conference call to "blue sky" another way to pass out the judging results. Maybe there would be away to use the team captains to present to the cars he or she judged at tables spread around the room, by class. Then the names could be read and maybe a power point - take 20 or 30 minutes total. The rest of the banquet we party.

Thanks for asking. Just remember next time, if you ask a question you may get an answer.

Ken

[59 98]

I personally don't like judging, never have enter my cars to be judged, and never will. I have some cars that would probably do well, but that will just not happen. I really liked the Flint meet because there was no expectations of rewards/awards for bringing a car, only a bunch of people showing off a ton of killer machines and everyone having what turned out to be one of the highlights of their decade (ditto here).

But, some people restore and have cars just to have them judged, for their own reasons, and it would be unfair of me to request 'no judging' just because I don't like it. I do think it sometimes adds an unnecessary air of 'my car is better than yours' and 'why did you win and I took second' tension, though. This does not always happen, but there are sore losers out there that can make things unpleasant if the judging did not work out the way they wanted. I am not a fan of superior attitude.

At the end of the day, though, I would prefer the nationals not be judged. To me a trophy or 'Best of' title wouldn't make me like my cars any more that I already do.

Matt

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

Derek, Willis... come on now, quit stradlin the fence here. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My first thought when I read Roberta's announcement that the 08 National would be held in Flint was YEEHAAAAAAA, that's gonna be FUN. Then when I read her reply that it wasn't going to be judged I thought HECK yea this is gonna be a PARTY!! So I guess my answer is let the Buicks come HOME to Buick City every five years and lets just have a good ole time. I think that just the general atmosphere of having the show and after show "party" on the old brick streets of downton Flint and folks having access to the Flint Cultural Center (which is great fun to see) and also the Sloan Museum will draw a large number of people with cars to the event. I'd love to hear ol Arlen Roth up there playin "56 Roadmasters from Space" (what about it Robera, think we can get him to play, and even bring some of his Buicks) Hopefully there will be a Buick Parade and that the drag races can still happen. See, wouldn't all that be worth putting off judging one year for. If it is planned that the unjudged event will happen every five years then I would think anyone should be able to plan around that fact regarding having their car perfect for showing and or maintaining their Senior status etc etc.

and that's MrEarls nickels worth

[Smartin]

I must've missed the '08 announcement...but I'm glad it will be reasonably close, as I will not be making it to Seattle next year. For some reason, I thought it was supposed to be in LA.

I would still like to see at least one officially judged meet every year. I believe that's part of the experience.

[BUICK RACER]

ol Arlen Roth up there playin "56 Roadmasters from Space" (what about it Roberta, think we can get him to play, and even bring some of his Buicks) Tell me how to get him there, I'm not even sure I know who he is, but hell yeah, would be way cool!

[BUICK RACER]

Go back and read my post

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

Adam, maybe I should have said "when Roberta reported that they had offered to hold the National in 08"... it will be voted on in July. I too think I had heard that LA had considered it. I vote Flint, a little bit (2000 miles) closer for me too. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Smartin]

Thanks for referring me to that thread, Roberta. I can't believe I missed that.

I had no idea judging was such an issue for Flint. It looks like there are lots of people on both sides of the fence.. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Guest BJM]

Matt,

In following your post on the correct restoration of your 64 Wildcat low option 4 speed car I note you atking great pains to insure authenticity. Wouldn't it be nice to win just one BCA Senior acknowledging so much hard work? Also, we would then have a "benchmark car" so that we could know what was correct from the factory. The Wildcat like you are restoring and will show eventually - they don't show up at judged shows too often.

[Mr Riviera]

A National Meet with NO Judging is a Non-Event. Save the Non-Judged Meets for the Regionals. While the Judging Event is only part of the National it is a big part and many folks like to participate. To exclude this part of the program is a big turn-off. Just my thought on the matter..

[BUICK RACER]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A National Meet with NO Judging is a Non-Event. Save the Non-Judged Meets for the Regionals. While the Judging Event is only part of the National it is a big part and many folks like to participate. To exclude this part of the program is a big turn-off. Just my thought on the matter.. </div></div>

Well, we will see what happens, we have some optional plans for judging if it is required, but will be somewhat different than anything done before. Getting judges is the biggest problem, if there are 20+ classes and each class requires a team leader and four judges, that's alot of folks to take time out from kicking tires and having fun with their friends for the better part of a day at the meet, and then the time involved in awards, etc. This is why we have always had a "Homecoming" in Flint, to see our friends, cars and have some fun, instead of "work" for a bunch of folks, that are judges, which those folks, don't have any fun or time with their Friends. Sorry but this is the true meaning of having a National Meet in Flint, it is and always will be a homecoming, non-judged event. We like it that way!

[NTX5467]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A National Meet with NO Judging is a Non-Event. Save the Non-Judged Meets for the Regionals. </div></div>

With all due respect, I highly suspect that the BULK of BCA Regional events DO have some sort of juding activities within the total event's architecture. It might not be 400 Point System judging, but judging (which most of the participants/judges can better understand as it's more of a "fun" way to do things and more inline with what they will see in non-BCA car events) nonetheless. Some Regionals have been more in the orientation of the BDE, but most are probably judged car shows. And some regionals are big enough to be as big as some of the smaller BCA National Meets of the past--just depends upon the venue and timeing in the year.

Yes, the BCA National Meet is the yearly "capstone" event of the organization. Kind of like the winners of all of the national (and international) chapter and regional events come together to see how they all stack up against each other. But with the BCA 400 Point System being the specified judging vehicle, it should be obvious how they'll all compare to each other (due to the way the judging system is configured and administered)--if all of the chapter and regional shows do use the 400 Point System as THEIR judging vehicle.

So, this might bring up the question "Where and why does the 'fun' of a chapter or regional meet disappear and the intensity of the BCA National Meet start?" We ALL appreciate seeing an existing BCA Senior vehicle at our regional meets--especially if it "drives" there--AND the owners of said vehicles. And we also like to see vehicles that could well receive those honors IF they were at a BCA National Meet in the future--just depends upon what the owner's orientations are in that respect. ANY type of a correct "reference restoration" or an "unmolested original" is always great to see at ANY car event, plus the owners who are ready and willing to give their time to talk to other participants and show attendees about their vehicle!

Now, as a BCA Chapter Director, I particulary do not like the orientation that Regional Meets are somehow "not as good as" or "a second class citizen" to the BCA National Meets. We might not universally use the BCA Point System in our local/regional judging, but we do have judging that does result in awards which the recipients are proud to get. Yes, it IS a lower level meet in the total scheme of things, but to the chapter, they are just as important (usually as a fund-raising and marketing activity for the local entity!). Building enthusiasm at the local level (for the parent BCA organization, the BCA chapter, AND Buick itself) is important AND should be mutually beneficial for all involved.

WHY would a BCA chapter not desire to use the 400 Point System for their judging? When that is the national organization's desired juding system of choice that they desire to be used in all BCA-related events? From my perspective from being involved in (and designing/administering judging and awards activities) local non-BCA shows AND also being similarly involved in the two BCA National Meets that our North Texas Chapter has hosted, one huge reason is "the awards" themselves.

With a BCA National Meet event, judged with the 400 Point System, the total number of awards is NOT known until judging is complete. Nor is the mix of the individual awards not known until judging is complete. Judging is completed about mid-afternoon on Saturday, with "showtime" for the banquet a few hours later. Even the BCA National Office has to speculate upon how many of the recognition awards they'll bring to the meet, plus allow for items that might be damaged in shipment. So, the best thing we could figure out is to speculate on how many awards we might need . . . a normal function of "business" . . . and then order what it would take TO BUILD said awards (with all items not related to engravings being returnable to the awards vendor after the meet). That's right, "on-site" assembly by BCA meet operatives, not pre-made and ready to hand out. It would be nice if an awards vendor could be "on-site" to do the assembly themselves, but (1) they usually are not set-up to do work at a remote venue and (2) with the total number not being known until judging activities are complete, they would not have the "buy-in" (as a BCA member would) to do the necessary work to get the desired awards built and ready for presentation (the 400 Point System awards that are the domain of the host chapter), plus (3) the awards cost would be increased for the host chapter (who might be on a very tight "break-even" budget already!!!).

At a chapter or regional meet, we put the emphasis on "marketing orientation" rather than being strictly about awards and judging. It's about getting the general public aware of the organization and "telling somebody" about our Saturday car show. As always, recognition awards ARE important, which puts the icing on the cake, so to speak.

It's also about getting the cars out for a change and enjoying them in a fashion that can be increasingly diminished in more modern times. And it's about being around people of similar interests and networking (locally) and making new friends who've done the same things you might be getting ready to do. In reality, many of the same reasons that a BCA National Meet is done--to bring people together for the greater good of the individual, group, the Buick side of the car hobby, AND the general car hobby as a whole. Now, you might be able to put a face with that person you've talked to on the phone or read about somewhere, for example . . . or see if a vendor really does have "the good stuff" you might need in the future.

Sure, just as drag racing has their "national events" each year, which follow a string of local and regional events in order to qualify to get there, the BCA National Event is similar . . . EXCEPT that the only "qualification" to enter the judged car shows is current BCA membership. IF we used a chain of shows to qualify vehicles to be worthy of being on the BCA National Meet's 400 Point System judged show field, it would most probably be a smaller show event--unlike what it now is with no prior show credentials (for that particular year) from BCA chapter and regional car shows (also judged with the 400 Point System).

Almost every car show organization (i.e., International Show Car Association) has a string of qualifying events (i.e., circuit shows) which they must place highly in to get to the final "grand national", by invitation only or prior qualifications, show at the end of the show year. Same with drag racing too. Or many sports competitions! But not with the BCA where a "walk-on" can pay their show entry money, bring their vehicle to the BCA National Meet, and put it on the 400 Point System judged show field with all of the other vehicles in that activity. The vehicle might not be appropriate for the judged show, but if the entry is paid for, it can be there. Some, for various reasons, will be told that their vehicle "does not qualify" and needs to be in another judged show (i.e., by a BCA Division) rather than the 400 Point System judged show. Some meet participants and attendees might wonder "How'd THAT get in here?" too (be that as it may)! The BCA chapter and regional events might be the precursor of the BCA National Event's 400 Point System judged car show, but with no stated "qualifying" events, it doesn't always work that way.

With all due respect, the BCA's 400 Point System way of judging vehicles is a good system, but it is also a system that many who aren't well-versed in how it operates might not understand--or the fact that the "best car there" will not automatically get a top award--as it's not what they see every weekend at local shows (non-BCA shows) OR they don't care to get that deep into it as they never plan on having a show-quality vehicle in a BCA National Meet show. Therefore, at a local chapter or regional meet, you'll probably not find the 400 Point System being used, but rather something easier to implement and something that results in being able to order awards "pre-made"--just my observation and gut suspicion.

In one respect, it would be nice if every chapter had a group of BCA-trained judges that would judge the car show events with the 400 Point System. OR there was a group of BCA members that would travel around to these local and regional meets to do the judging "BCA Style". This might somewhat stabilize local judging activities and provide more consistency into the mix. Still, people new to the BCA or casual observers (who knew how other car shows were judged) might consider the 400 Point System "weird" or "too different for them" when the "best car there" does not win a top award, so they go off confused and back to "their normal world" where that DOES happen.

And, as with any "imported" judges or referees, there can be negative comments about "somebody we don't know" not being completely fair in their judging activities. UNLESS . . . each chapter and regional meet can have a "how to judge" seminar and make the whole situation a learning experience for both current and potential BCA members! In a fun and informational orientation rather than "school work".

At some of the General Membership meetings, when chapter operatives ask how they are supposed to sell the BCA to a local Buick owner who's used to the local shows and why the BCA chapter requires BCA National membership in order to have local membership, there usually seems to be a response (what I have considered to be an "aloof" response, by observation and tone of voice) from a BCA member that such "selling" should be easy to do, as if the local Buick owner should KNOW or have prior knowledge of the BCA and be proud to pay their money to be a member--NOT a good marketing orientation, to me, which (by observation) makes the questioner mad and can also turn him/her off to the BCA itself. If WE, at the local chapter and regional levels, don't do an effective and successful marketing job for the parent organization, all of the BCA National Organization advertising in autmotive hobby magazines can be compromised as the people we'll be asking to join might not even know about Hemmings Motor News or have casually heard of it, for example. Typically, they are new to the car hobby and want to get involved--not turned off by the way they are answered (by a BCA member) when they make a (to them) serious question on a valid concern (in this case, the dual membership requirement, if explained correctly, will make sense to them).

Sorry for this lengthy commentary and explanation, but please do not diminish the standing of BCA chapter or regional events just because the "only" judged car event that matters might be the 400 Point System judged show field at the BCA National Meet. If we don't do the job at the chapter and regional level, to encourage people to attend and make the efforts (sacrifices?) to get their fine Buick to the national event in the first place, it might not happen at all.

From the financial end of things, the BCA National Meet's judged car show can be more of a reason for people to attend without cars (people who might not come at all), but not the complete reason for the BCA National Meet itself (don't forget the swap meet!!!!!). It IS important to have some sort of car show display at the BCA National Meet (without such a car show display, it would be "a non-event" to many). Even if the car show might not be 400 Point System judged, it's still what it is and where it is and I (personally) would expect to see some really great stuff (restored, not restored "survivors", and "unmolested" originals). Plus, seeing cars that those in less-Buick-populated areas might not have ever seen before!

Each of us has their own sensitivities on the issue, which I respect and I hope you reciprocally respect my current (key word!) orientation from my past experiences and involvements. I might desire to have a 400 Point System judged Buick at some time in the future (finances, time, other situations), but I also know that many BCA members do desire (in the current and near future time frame) to get involved in that activity and should be encouraged to do so to the limit of their tolerance. And I also understand what it takes to make get and maintain a vehicle in that condition.

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Willis Bell 20811

[serb]

ETC,ETC,ETc,.............oh.....ETC,ETC,ETC,.......oh.........ETC,ETC,ETc,.......

[BUICK RACER]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ETC,ETC,ETc,.............oh.....ETC,ETC,ETC,.......oh.........ETC,ETC,ETc,....... </div></div>

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

Some very good points to consider Willis. Many members, myself included are not aware of all the backstage planning and work as you speak of that's involved in a judged event. I do think the current system is a good one and would not like to see it evolve into anything so regimented as the system that you speak of where one has to move up the chain to eventually win at a National. I like the peer judging and would not like to see the BCA go to having Expert Judges. A lot is learned when peers judge peers autos. Thanks for taking the time to explain more in detail the intricacies of judged events.