Classics Still “Undiscovered?”

[kar3516]

I understand that very few custom coach built Packards, Cadillacs, Pierce Arrows, and Lincolns etc of the 1929 to 1935 era remain undiscovered as they were so well known and well documented and of very limited production from the beginning.  But for the standard but still very desirable bodies (club sedans, coupes, convertible coupes or convertible sedans, and roadsters) of the same marques and era what percentage do you think are unknown to the rank and file of the collecting hobby?  I’m talking skipped generation cars where the current heirs could care less and/or don’t need the money and never considered publicizing what remains stored in dad’s or grandpa’s original parked location.  These would be cars that were possibly known to others 50 or 60 years ago but are generally “unknown” today.  Or do you think virtually every car fitting the above description is known by at least one person in the hobby?  Comments?

Edited December 16, 2023 by kar3516 (see edit history)

[Crusty Trucker]

I attended a college astronomy lecture in the university planetarium with the Milky Way projected on the domed ceiling. The professor explained that it consisted of millions and millions of stars and that it stretched to infinity. A young coed pondered this for a while trying to comprehend such an astronomical number and the vastness of it all. Finally, she raised her hand and asked, "How many stars are there in the Milky Way that we can't see?"

 

I think your questions are about as difficult to answer as hers was.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Crusty Trucker (see edit history)

[alsancle]

There are a few. Including some interesting ones. Cars that were known in the 50s that have not been seen in 60 or 70 years. If it was something really cool, and it made it past the scrap drives into the 1950s there’s a good chance the car was still with us.

 

You will see them surface every once in a while. Every once in a while it’s something truly spectacular like the Jordan speedway Ace.

[TAKerry]

I am always amazed at how many 'barn find' cars pop up. Not being facetious but when someone actually comes up with a car that was found exactly like the op described. I had figured by now all of those kind of things have been brought out of the woodwork by now. I work around my share of old buildings and some newer, LOL and I keep waiting for the day that I have THAT find of something cool stashed in a garage. I was close once but that was about it.

[kar3516]

Much has been written about how the upper crust cars were expensive to maintain and lost much of their value in a short while.  But the demographics of their original purchasers still make me believe that they owned real estate better suited to stashing vehicles out of sight out of mind for a generation or two.  And clearly the east and west coasts where the money was had a much higher density of these cars compared to the plains states.

[kar3516]

I recently bought a 33 Packard Standard Eight Convertible Victoria with 52K original miles.  In the same family since 1973.  Prior owner since right after WWII.  Not restored but had a cheap 1960s repaint.  Apparently a known car but made me wonder about  others…

[Jim Skelly]

When I see comments on this forum or Internet ads that claim "such and such is the only remaining one" I have to question that.  It may be the only known example but every year there are individual cars and collections that come up for auction or at estate sales that collectors didn't know to have survived.  

[cjmarzoli]

It’s a good question, there are surely some but not many.  Another related issue is how many previously known prewar cars have now been “lost” again?  If you look at pictures of car show from back in the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s, there are tons of pre 1940 cars on display that were on the road at that time.  You go to a car show in the last 30 years and none of those cars are there.  The show field NOW looks like the spectator parking lot would have looked at those shows in the 60’s and 70’s.   Where did they all go?  I know, sadly, that a good number of them have left the USA for other countries but surely there are many still extant here that are squirrelled away in garages.  They have to be as they simply didn’t disappear or get scrapped.  I’ve been of the opinion for the last 15 years or so that the owners of these cars will age out, pass on, and these cars will be divested on the marketplace, resulting in a relative “glut” of prewar cars on the market and a consequential drop in market values.  But it has not happened yet.  There are so few of these cars on the market that the prices have remained relatively stable.   There are still many prewar cars in the hands of folks in their 80’s and 90’s.  Sooner or later those cars are going to hit the marketplace, right?  I hope so because I’ve been looking for one for the last 15 years and am still looking!

[kar3516]

19 minutes ago, cjmarzoli said:

It’s a good question, there are surely some but not many.  Another related issue is how many previously known prewar cars have now been “lost” again?  If you look at pictures of car show from back in the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s, there are tons of pre 1940 cars on display that were on the road at that time.  You go to a car show in the last 30 years and none of those cars are there.  The show field NOW looks like the spectator parking lot would have looked at those shows in the 60’s and 70’s.   Where did they all go?  I know, sadly, that a good number of them have left the USA for other countries but surely there are many still extant here that are squirrelled away in garages.  They have to be as they simply didn’t disappear or get scrapped.  I’ve been of the opinion for the last 15 years or so that the owners of these cars will age out, pass on, and these cars will be divested on the marketplace, resulting in a relative “glut” of prewar cars on the market and a consequential drop in market values.  But it has not happened yet.  There are so few of these cars on the market that the prices have remained relatively stable.   There are still many prewar cars in the hands of folks in their 80’s and 90’s.  Sooner or later those cars are going to hit the marketplace, right?  I hope so because I’ve been looking for one for the last 15 years and am still looking!

Well said.  I think many cars known and unknown have been in single family ownership for 50 to 60 years and will coming out to a changed market in the next 10 to 15 years.  Opportunities for those of us who want one but would not spring for a concours restoration 

[edinmass]

 

There are a bunch of "rare & desirable" 30's cars still being found. In the last 15 years I have found over 15 unknown Pierce Arrow's that had never been in the club or the roster....including six open cars.........two were BIG BOY TOYS....Pebble Beach Material. One has already been on the field on the 18th green. V-12 New York Auto Show Car. I hunted it for over 20 years. Then there is the Duesenberg I pulled out of a real barn with horses living it it.........I didn't find the car, but I was hired to recover it (2018)........it also is now on the road regularly. Some day I will do a ten page article on it with photos and video. So yes......there are lots of things still out there.......like this 34 Buick that was five miles from me in Palm Beach sitting since the 50's. 

 

 

 

 

[edinmass]

 

Here is the V-12 LeBaron Auto Show coupe, in the garage and on the field.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[kar3516]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

There are a bunch of "rare & desirable" 30's cars still being found. In the last 15 years I have found over 15 unknown Pierce Arrow's that had never been in the club or the roster....including six open cars.........two were BIG BOY TOYS....Pebble Beach Material. One has already been on the field on the 18th green. V-12 New York Auto Show Car. I hunted it for over 20 years. Then there is the Duesenberg I pulled out of a real barn with horses living it it.........I didn't find the car, but I was hired to recover it (2018)........it also is now on the road regularly. Some day I will do a ten page article on it with photos and video. So yes......there are lots of things still out there.......like this 34 Buick that was five miles from me in Palm Beach sitting since the 50's. 

 

 

 

 

The Buick is a perfect example of an unknown great car hiding in plain sight.  The NY Show car is awesome is a completely different way as its rarity makes the discovery an epic event.  I’m convinced there are so many more great cars which will see the light of day in the near future 

[1935Packard]

5 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

There are a bunch of "rare & desirable" 30's cars still being found. In the last 15 years I have found over 15 unknown Pierce Arrow's that had never been in the club or the roster....including six open cars.........two were BIG BOY TOYS....Pebble Beach Material. One has already been on the field on the 18th green. V-12 New York Auto Show Car. I hunted it for over 20 years. Then there is the Duesenberg I pulled out of a real barn with horses living it it.........I didn't find the car, but I was hired to recover it (2018)........it also is now on the road regularly. Some day I will do a ten page article on it with photos and video. So yes......there are lots of things still out there.......like this 34 Buick that was five miles from me in Palm Beach sitting since the 50's. 

 

You're the expert in this stuff, Ed, so a question:  How many of these cars are cars that were bought by a young guy in the 1950s for hardly any money, and put away in a garage, and then sold by the family only after he (or his widow) died?  I ask because I suspect that happens pretty often, and it may suggest that there's a time limit on how much longer we'll see these cars come to light.   The guy who buys a car for no money may put it in a barn for 60 years, but I don't know how much longer multiple generations of families will keep doing that.  Maybe some, but not as many.  Or so I wonder.

[edinmass]

I was at a very local car show to me here in the city. A guy walks up to me and said……Your the Pierce Arrow guy right? Said he had a bunch of cars……..he never got back to me. Three years later he sees me driving around Palm Beach in a Pierce. Long story short, bought his three Pierce Arrows that were sitting in a barn for 40 years. I actually knew one of the cars when it was on the road in the 70’s. Things come around all the time, you just NEVER EVER STOP Looking. I look 24/7/365……..it you don’t hunt, you never get to pull the trigger. The real trick is learning to do a quick snap shot……….buy with your gut, not your head. Don’t over think it. Just do it. That’s how you get cars. Buy them the first time you see them………wait, and you WILL lose..

[kar3516]

5 hours ago, edinmass said:

I was at a very local car show to me here in the city. A guy walks up to me and said……Your the Pierce Arrow guy right? Said he had a bunch of cars……..he never got back to me. Three years later he sees me driving around Palm Beach in a Pierce. Long story short, bought his three Pierce Arrows that were sitting in a barn for 40 years. I actually knew one of the cars when it was on the road in the 70’s. Things come around all the time, you just NEVER EVER STOP Looking. I look 24/7/365……..it you don’t hunt, you never get to pull the trigger. The real trick is learning to do a quick snap shot……….buy with your gut, not your head. Don’t over think it. Just do it. That’s how you get cars. Buy them the first time you see them………wait, and you WILL lose..

100% agreed.  Any great deal isn’t going to last.  Any rare car that sees the light of day after 60 years isn’t going to last.  And sometimes you know you won’t ever get another chance at that price, or for something so untouched, or for a car where only a few exist.  

[edinmass]

5 hours ago, kar3516 said:

100% agreed.  Any great deal isn’t going to last.  Any rare car that sees the light of day after 60 years isn’t going to last.  And sometimes you know you won’t ever get another chance at that price, or for something so untouched, or for a car where only a few exist.  

 

On great cars, it’s never about the money. If you counting dollars close to the vest the deals very seldom work. On some things is life, you just have to write the check or pass……..

[John Bloom]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

On great cars, it’s never about the money. If you counting dollars close to the vest the deals very seldom work. On some things is life, you just have to write the check or pass……..

This, and also treat everyone you come across with respect and Kindness if possible.  So much focus is on the owner of the car, but frequently that isn't the contact or the juice to get the car.  That young girl in your third grade class, will call you up later in life when she's in her 40's and liquidating her uncle's estate and remembers you fondly and that you liked "old cars".  Or that troubled young adolescent boy that was a patient in your pediatric practice, and you believed in him and treated (and mentored him) for many years(and then forgot about him)....and he matured and achieved tremendous business success and told his parents to contact "doc" when they finally decided to give up their classic big iron car (hidden away) and sell to the physician who helped turn their son around.   

 

I am not a player in either of those two stories but observed from the sidelines as both played out recently and I was privy to the details.  You never know what person you come across in life may be the contact or catalyst for an interesting car coming out into the light.  Always makes for a good story to tell forever.  

[ericmac]

I have acquired three Model T projects in past year because of circumstances like those listed above.  Some of that has been because I am seen as a nice man,  one car was because someone knew the story of my dad and uncle and one was because word on the street was I was a no-BS guy who came through and bought cars when they were for sale.

 

Granted, I am not talking about cars that are the great hidden classics (these are Fords after all), but if I get an honest crack at one of those I will certainly try to get my money around to make it happen.  Like the process Ed is alluding to, I keep my ear to the ground and look at every single car that seems to be an ever remotely promising lead. Some turn out to be street rodded, rusty hulks, or in one case, a "Duesenberg " that turned out to be a VW with a Rolls Royce front end. It was fun to see just the same. Another "26 Model T" turned out to be an abandoned,  but very well done '25 T Touring.  I bought it.

[edinmass]

To many owners who is buying the car is more important than the price. The don’t want a family heirloom cut up to a street rod, or some other mess. Several people sold me cars because of this fourm, knowing I will make it run and treat it properly. The Buick, and the two Whites were all directly related to my postings here. 

[John Bloom]

Frequently the story is as great or greater than the car. I marvel at how often I hear a story that leads to a great car changing hands, and a key fact about how it happened is something crazy and unlikely to happen with million to one odds.  
 

 

[Porsche 68]

I know it’s not the holy grail of Packards found this 40 110 busines coupe all original yes sitting in a barn since 1961 jus how I like them Going to make it road safe and enjoy the hell out of it ! Just hop the 34 dodge doesn’t get pissed  John

[Walt G]

4 hours ago, John Bloom said:

treat everyone you come across with respect and Kindness if possible.

this is what life is about - as the song lyrics once wisely stated "make someone happy just one someone happy , and you will be happy too".  This applies to so many things in life.

And yes, I am a sentimental sap.....................

[JACK M]

1 hour ago, Porsche 68 said:

I know it’s not the holy grail of Packards found this 40 110 busines coupe all original yes sitting in a barn since 1961 jus how I like them Going to make it road safe and enjoy the hell out of it ! Just hop the 34 dodge doesn’t get pissed  John

Hey John, If that 34 starts to get jealous I will take it off of your hands.

Have fun with that Packard. 😉

[Porsche 68]

You’ll have to pry it out of my cold dead hands 🤣

[Leif in Calif]

I think of all the cars we are interested in, probably more than half are tucked away in some state of suspended animation in a garage or shed some where. Last year I posted pictures of the lady across the street's grandfather's 33 Imperial, full of boxes in her garage. 

[kar3516]

2 hours ago, Leif in Calif said:

I think of all the cars we are interested in, probably more than half are tucked away in some state of suspended animation in a garage or shed some where. Last year I posted pictures of the lady across the street's grandfather's 33 Imperial, full of boxes in her garage. 

Good term “suspended animation”…

[28anut]

On 12/16/2023 at 7:16 PM, edinmass said:

…….buy with your gut, not your head. Don’t over think it. Just do it.

Ed is right.."buy with your gut, not your head".  I once thought with my head at a Bonhams auction.  I watched a car I wanted go well, well, over the house estimate.  I thought the house knew something I didn't, so I backed off.  Biggest mistake of my life. I've searched and searched for a similar car for less money, not to be found.  I would gladly give the hammer price in hindsight. My cars which I enjoy the most are the ones I bought with butterflys in my stomach and stars in my eyes.  Maybe I overpaid for a few cars, but I'm still excited like a kid again over the cars I bought with my gut -"Priceless".  I would suspect most cars are sold within a 20% range +/- of their real value.  If you can't accept a 20% margin then you will never truly enjoy what you have.

[Leif in Calif]

2 hours ago, 28anut said:

Ed is right.."buy with your gut, not your head".  I once thought with my head at a Bonhams auction.  I watched a car I wanted go well, well, over the house estimate.  I thought the house knew something I didn't, so I backed off.  Biggest mistake of my life. I've searched and searched for a similar car for less money, not to be found.  I would gladly give the hammer price in hindsight. My cars which I enjoy the most are the ones I bought with butterflys in my stomach and stars in my eyes.  Maybe I overpaid for a few cars, but I'm still excited like a kid again over the cars I bought with my gut -"Priceless".  I would suspect most cars are sold within a 20% range +/- of their real value.  If you can't accept a 20% margin then you will never truly enjoy what you have.

It's only "Over paid" if you want to sell it, which means that the money it worth more to you than the car.

If you don't want to sell it, the reverse is true and no matter what the price, it's a good deal! 

[JACK M]

I have had non buyer's remorse WAY more often than I've had buyer's remorse.