Dealing with the Clueless!!!

[R W Burgess]

An interesting article from a few years ago.....

 

Look, you guys know I'm a big proponent of driving your cars and using them as intended. I do drive my old cars daily whenever possible. However, I don't think I'm being a hypocrite here. This latest example of adults without brains is exactly why my patience is shot and my energy is gone and my interest in cars is plummeting. Yes, I frequently get the question, "Can I drive it daily?" on cars we're selling, which I typically take to mean, "Is it reliable?" I usually say yes with the caveat that it's an old car and will require commensurately more maintenance and tinkering than a modern car. That's why there were full-service gas stations and why tune-ups, valve jobs, ring jobs, and other labor-intensive processes were part of a regular car's life cycle. Go in with your eyes open, but yes, old cars can be made to be daily-driver reliable.

 

 

A relatively normal transaction, although the guy used some kind of farm equipment bank to lend him the money to buy it. Whatever. He did ask about daily driver reliability, and I told him it was probably as good as such cars could be, but there's certainly a reason why MGs (and other British cars) have the reputation they do.

 

Today he calls and says he likes the car but he can't get insurance for it. What?!? How about Hagerty? JC Taylor? Grundy? State Farm? Literally any insurance company that insures old cars should have no problem with an MG TD.

 

Ah, here's the rub: this guy really does intend to drive this car every day. In Rhode Island. In January. And no, he doesn't have any other cars. This will be his only car. Seriously? If someone asked me to name the worst possible cars that you could still technically drive every day, I'd probably get to an MG before I was out of fingers on my first hand. No windows, no heater, no defroster, marginal wipers, marginal lighting, tiny taillights, and 60 horsepower with tepid performance, never mind the total lack of safety equipment and the Impale-O-Matic steering column. Oh, and it's small enough to become little more than bug splatter on the front of a modern Dodge Ram, which will plow through an MG without even scratching the bumper. Are you INSANE? Hell, three days of driving that thing in high-speed commuter traffic on sunny days would make me give it up, but trying to make it work in a New England winter?!? WTF dude? Like, the BIGGEST of WTF?s for you.

 

I have to take the car back and refund his money, right? That's what he's asking me to do. I can't leave him out there like that. Even a light fender bender in this car could be fatal. No mainline insurance company in the world would insure that. It's like trying to get them to issue life insurance when you tell them your full-time hobby is sticking your head in the oven and inhaling the fumes.

 

This is only the latest edition of how we have to constantly protect grown adults from their own stupidity and it's friggin' exhausting. This waterhead just cost me a bunch of money and hurt the marketability of the car, all because he was so stupid as to think this would be a good way to get around town in today's world.

 

Am I being unreasonable? Is this even remotely a sane choice for winter transportation? I hear all kinds of stories about MGs in awful weather, but it's usually connected to "The worst driving experience I ever had," and remembered with fondness only because it's over, the way I tell amusing anecdotes about remembering getting my wisdom teeth yanked out of my head with pliers because it was 35 years ago.

[28 Chrysler]

Strong Darwin award potential on this one. I would send him out onto the nearest freeway.

[Rivguy]

I went through something like this when I was selling my '70 Mustang. A guy came to see it and I asked if he had driven a vintage car before. He said no he hadn't. I told him that it had manual drum brakes, they were just rebuilt and in good shape but it won't stop like a modern car. During the test drive he told me that he was considering buying the car for his Wife! Luckily I didn't hear back from him. My Wife doesn't like old cars, actually she doesn't care about cars at all, she just expects a modern car with all the conveniences and safety items built in. I have never wanted her, or required her, to drive one of my really old cars.

[rocketraider]

Wasn't that Matt Harwood? I remember that discussion a few years back.

 

No, you cannot protect idiots from themselves.

 

Yes, these cars were perfectly fine as daily drivers IN THEIR TIME. In modern traffic, against distracted and unskilled knuckleheads who in a sane world would never be allowed to operate a vehicle, not so much.

 

I've gotten to a point I dislike driving on Interstates or even in heavy traffic. I know what I'm going to do, but I never know what someone else is going to do. And I'm driving "modern" vehicles in every sense of the word.

 

Darwin indeed.

[trimacar]

I don't get all this bad mouthing about drum brakes.  If done correctly and adjusted correctly, they'll stop you with no problem, safely and efficiently, even in a panic stop, just like they've done for decades. 

 

Now, someone will say, yeah, but what if you have to panic stop again and the brakes fade?  Well, as has been said before, if one needs two panic stops that close to each other, then the driver is the problem, not the brakes.

 

Do we really think that showing cars in a new car dealer showroom, 1930s, 1950s, salesmen were saying "great car, but the brakes aren't any good"......  ?

 

And in answer to the original question, someone buys a car, it's their problem if they don't know how it should be used.  If one were feeling extra generous, sure, refund the money, minus advertising expenses and some dollar figure for time wasted.

Edited November 27, 2023 by trimacar (see edit history)

[Andy J]

I am constantly amazed at the ignorant,no,just plain stupid people that are allowed to drive cars today. I have two granddaughters that are learning to drive. I take them out and try to instill in them to take nothing for granted,that people don't pay attention to anything and they act like driving a car is secondary to texting,eating,or anything else that people do behind the wheel. Drive like everyone you meet is trying to wreck you out. What does it tell you when you meet a car that has a smashed up front end? They can't drive,that's what.

 

I teach them things that aren't in the driver's handbook. Here in Mississippi,there is a large group of people that don't have insurance,even though they are required by law to have it. Those are the ones with the smashed front ends.

[Porsche 68]

I had a friend whose daughter was about to get her license I told him to buy her a cheap car because she is going to wreck it  He did get mad at me for thinking his daughter was a bad driver So they buy her a new Honda  2 weeks later going around a corner down a hill to fast rolled the car   John

[wayne sheldon]

15 minutes ago, Porsche 68 said:

I had a friend whose daughter was about to get her license I told him to buy her a cheap car because she is going to wreck it  He did get mad at me for thinking his daughter was a bad driver So they buy her a new Honda  2 weeks later going around a corner down a hill to fast rolled the car   John

 

I do hope she was okay? But that is what has to happen when everyone is raised to believe that everything is someone else's responsibility, and that they will be protected by all the technology designed for that purpose.

My dad used to say that one of the most important lessons of his life was when he was about three or four, and rode his tricycle as fast as he could and flipped over into a patch of stinging nettles! He quickly learned that doing things in a reckless manner might hurt!

If children are protected too much? The last lesson they learn may be their last lesson ever.

[Dr B]

On 11/27/2023 at 4:08 PM, trimacar said:

I don't get all this bad mouthing about drum brakes.  If done correctly and adjusted correctly,

David,

 

I believe there are two issues here.  First, most people do not properly adjust their brakes.  There have been many threads discussing how many (most) collector cars are not well sorted and thus the diagnosis is commonly  "they all ran (stopped) poorly like that in the day".   I agree, well sorted and adjusted drum brakes stop older cars just fine.  However, there is one big caveat.  That is issue number two.  The second issue is expectations.  Too many people have an expectation that drum brakes should stop like disk brakes.  Obviously that is not true.  Drum brakes do a fine job in 95%+ of situations, but are clearly outclasses in emergency/hard braking and repeated braking conditions (e.g. racing).  I think a similar false argument repeatedly occurs with 6V electrical systems.  Obviously they worked.  Again they need to be sorted and properly maintained.  The idea of needing to "upgrading" to a 12V system is ludicrous.

 

As for the OP, I am SHOCKED that he would even consider buying back the car.  As a friend of mine commonly says "you can't fix stupid".  How in any rational universe is it the OP's responsibility to get this fool out of the predicament he got himself into?

 

Robert

[Matt Harwood]

Yes, that was me in the original post. We sold the MG as described. He did indeed try to drive it in regular traffic and eventually blew up the engine running that poor little car on the highway at 75 MPH. He wanted me to pay for the rebuild and got a quote from some towing company for $20,000 to do the work. I obviously declined. He has since launched on a campaign of harassment, including plastering the internet with bad reviews under multiple different names for multiple different vehicles, calling other local businesses pretending to be me and asking for appointments (they call me back and we waste each other's time figuring out that it wasn't me who called them), and sending us pizza COD, which, of course, we pay for and eat. I offered to help him get the engine rebuilt and found a quote that was about 25% as much as the huge quote he received ($4500 vs. $20,000), but then he told me he sold the car for scrap and had it crushed and I should simply give him all his money back before I get sued...

 

I think he was a genuine crazy person.

[TAKerry]

Stinks Matt, but consider yourself lucky! We built a multi million dollar office building for someone that makes that fellow look sane!!!

Although we never got any pizza deliveries.

[Dr B]

On 12/1/2023 at 11:03 AM, Matt Harwood said:

Yes, that was me in the original post. We sold the MG as described. He did indeed try to drive it in regular traffic and eventually blew up the engine running that poor little car on the highway at 75 MPH. He wanted me to pay for the rebuild and got a quote from some towing company for $20,000 to do the work. I obviously declined. He has since launched on a campaign of harassment, including plastering the internet with bad reviews under multiple different names for multiple different vehicles, calling other local businesses pretending to be me and asking for appointments (they call me back and we waste each other's time figuring out that it wasn't me who called them), and sending us pizza COD, which, of course, we pay for and eat. I offered to help him get the engine rebuilt and found a quote that was about 25% as much as the huge quote he received ($4500 vs. $20,000), but then he told me he sold the car for scrap and had it crushed and I should simply give him all his money back before I get sued...

 

I think he was a genuine crazy person.

Matt,

 

Sorry to hear it was you.  After following your posts for years and having a sense of just how reasonable you are and how hard you work to do the right thing, it is sad that you have to put up with that sort of harassment from a deranged character.  May all your future transaction go smoothly.

 

Robert

[rocketraider]

On 12/1/2023 at 11:03 AM, Matt Harwood said:

Yes, that was me in the original post. We sold the MG as described. He did indeed try to drive it in regular traffic and eventually blew up the engine running that poor little car on the highway at 75 MPH. He wanted me to pay for the rebuild and got a quote from some towing company for $20,000 to do the work. I obviously declined. He has since launched on a campaign of harassment, including plastering the internet with bad reviews under multiple different names for multiple different vehicles, calling other local businesses pretending to be me and asking for appointments (they call me back and we waste each other's time figuring out that it wasn't me who called them), and sending us pizza COD, which, of course, we pay for and eat. I offered to help him get the engine rebuilt and found a quote that was about 25% as much as the huge quote he received ($4500 vs. $20,000), but then he told me he sold the car for scrap and had it crushed and I should simply give him all his money back before I get sued...

 

I think he was a genuine crazy person.

Why, so he could go out and blow the engine again?🤨

 

I think I remember you saying this individual had never even owned a car before?

 

.

[Rivguy]

About old cars with drum brakes; it's not that they won't stop the car, it's that they won't stop it in as short a distance as the new car that a person is used to driving. If you are a fan of watching old episodes of Motor Week Retro, you'll have seen that when it comes to stopping from 60 mph. some cars will stop in 120 ft. some at 140 ft. and many even longer than that. And these are modern cars, 25 years old or less, that are brand new. A car from the '50's or even '60's will probably take much longer than all of those tested cars. It also took skill to stop quickly back then, brake application had to be modulated to prevent lock up and skidding, keeping control of the car when it locks up the rear wheels and  fishtails. Modern ABS systems just require the driver to stab the brakes and steer straight. 

That's not to say that people can't learn to drive carefully and within the limits of a vintage car. it takes a person that is willing and open to learn. Remember the old rule to establish a safe following distance? Maintain one car length for every ten miles per hour of speed. When's the last time you saw anyone doing that?  How many times does a driver suddenly jump into the lane in front of you then slam on the brakes, reducing your established safety margin to almost nothing? This type of drivers can barely avoid collisions driving a modern car. Of course it's their responsibility to drive safely, but there is a learning curve when it comes to driving a vintage car.

[Studeous]

Next time you talk to this person, ask if they have a lifetime membership in 

the Neptune Society… just sayin.

[NewOldWood]

Maybe take it back, but not at anywhere near the full purchase price. Stupidity should be painfull.

[kgreen]

On 12/3/2023 at 12:40 AM, Rivguy said:

 

That's not to say that people can't learn to drive carefully and within the limits of a vintage car. it takes a person that is willing and open to learn. 

We make cars that are safe enough now that even those persons with limited willingness to learn their machine, can prevent their early demise.

[28 Chrysler]

On 12/25/2023 at 6:03 AM, kgreen said:

We make cars that are safe enough now that even those persons with limited willingness to learn their machine, can prevent their early demise.

"We can't put to much pressure on the drivers"  a quote from an east coast collage professor about the Tesla self driving recall.

[24Chry48]

I also get disgusted when people say they need to convert to disc brakes. The old cars require that you drive it like an old car. I always tell people that you can't drive a 30's or 40's car like a new car. It's a whole different way of driving, and if they don't understand that, they should just keep driving their new cars. When my kids were learning to drive, I always told them if they could read the license plate number on the car in front of them on the highway, they were too close to it. I still feel that way.

[Dr B]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:17 AM, 24Chry48 said:

The old cars require that you drive it like an old car. I always tell people that you can't drive a 30's or 40's car like a new car. 

Absolutely! It took me a while to learn this. For many years, I enjoyed sports cars from the 60's. When I got my first pre-war car, I was driving it more like a sports cars than a pre-war car. Bad idea. As I drove more and talked with pre-war aficionados, I realized I was doing it all wrong. I soon learned how to drive a pre-war car and enjoy the drive so much more! In addition, I enjoy driving 60's sports cars more now since learning to drive pre-war cars. It is similar to that saying about "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow". Different animals, different styles, all fun and enjoyable!

 

Robert

[Larry Schramm]

You guys and your drum brakes on all four wheels. 

 

Try driving a brass car with rear brakes only and tires that put down maybe six square inches of tire to the pavement.  Try that for stopping distance, oh and add rain to the equation.  See how far that gets you.  

 

In this set up one truly learns the meaning of "defensive driving".  And many of us have toured thousands of miles in this set up including days in the rain.  One must learn to drive the capabilities of the vehicle, and not the idiot flying at some stupid speed & manner.

Edited February 5 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)