Rebuilt engine - is it possible to change blocks and keep the internals?

[m-mman]

The car: 1960 Edsel 2 dr sedan POS. (it was brush painted with house paint at one time)

 

It was a "disassembled for restoration" project car my friend bought because we figured that we could just easily assemble the pile 'o parts and drive it around. No real restoration. Minimum expenditure of funds. A finished 1960 Edsel isn't worth much. 

 

It came with a totally rebuilt 223 six cylinder engine. Built over 20 years ago, never installed just sat in the garage. 

 

So we do get it re-assembled and planned to drive it to the Concours de Lemons. In pre-trip testing and sorting it was running hot but not excessively. A couple of times it had difficulty cranking, (like bad starter) but after 4-5 bumps it would start and run. Some water in the oil, and combustion in the radiator, (block check fluid quickly turns yellow)   Lots and lots of checking and diagnosis (yes we changed the head gasket) 

 

Long story short . . . IT HAS A RUSTED OUT CYLINDER!!!!   

 

Yup, it seems to have rusted in from the water jacket, making tiny porosity holes into the cylinder wall.  The starter not cranking was water (steam?) seeping into the cylinder and hydrolocking the cylinder. (when the engine cranked just enough to open a valve then it would crank.  <sigh> 

 

The rusted engine was 100% rebuilt and did run great until. . . . 

 

Ok now how to fix it?  Yes, the block is junk. Perhaps it could be sleeved but WHY???

So, we are searching and following up ads for either a 223 six bare block or complete motor to strip. 

 

We are thinking about getting a replacement block and just swapping in the brand new internals. 

 

The rusted motor was bored .030 so we would probably have to bore the replacement block. 

After that, new cam bearings (I dont think they can be swapped(?)

Then we hope to transfer over the new/repaired; crank, rods, pistons, rings, cam, lifters, etc. We plan to use the brand new crank-rod bearings in the replacement block. 

 

The rebuilt-rusted engine had MAYBE 100 testing miles on it and maybe 20 hours of running maximum(?)

 

Are there any reasons that this plan would not work?  I have never attempted substituting a block and moving the brand new internals. 

 

Can anybody think of any pitfalls we should look out for? 

 

 

 

[Andy J]

I don't see why it wouldn't work.I'm not an expert by any means,but people buy complete rotating assemblies to install in their blocks all the time. As long as all the clearances were within factory specs,I don't see why it wouldn't work.

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, m-mman said:

Perhaps it could be sleeved but WHY???

Because you don't have to change a bunch of stuff. Put back together and drive.

 

1 hour ago, m-mman said:

The rusted motor was bored .030 so we would probably have to bore the replacement block. 

Yes. That's actually a good thing. The chances of taking standard pistons out of one block, putting in another, having 6 usable bores and 6 usable pistons isn't very good. Doable if so, but unlikely, and I am assuming Ford wasn't using select fit parts at that time. If they were, the odds are even worse. .030 bore job and a new set of rings oughta do it.

 

1 hour ago, m-mman said:

After that, new cam bearings (I dont think they can be swapped(?)

Correct. You would have to approach that with a careful look, because who knows, but I have never heard of saving them.

 

1 hour ago, m-mman said:

Then we hope to transfer over the new/repaired; crank, rods, pistons, rings, cam, lifters, etc. We plan to use the brand new crank-rod bearings in the replacement block. 

I wouldn't count on the rings. Everything else should be OK to swap over if it really was rebuilt by someone competent. You won't know until you get it all apart.

 

[Rusty_OToole]

You should be able to reuse the bearings and rings. The only thing you will need for sure is new gaskets. And of course, a suitable block that has been bored to fit the pistons. Talk it over with the machinist, he will want the pistons so he can be sure to bore the cylinders to the right size.

[EmTee]

Unless you locate a replacement block locally, why not sleeve the existing one?  That would seem to me to be the simplest way to get it fixed.  How do the other 5 cylinders look?

[m-mman]

Local parts certainly.  I’m not going to FedEx an engine block.

Surprisingly there are more flathead V8 cores popping up (Craigslist, Facebook, etc) than these 223 sixes. 
 

The existing (leaking) block has the typical zero maintenance rust in the water jacket.  I flushed it, but it could use some chipping and scraping to open it up more.  
And that’s my concern. If one cylinder rusted through, could another be far behind? 

Is it possible for a machine shop to install one sleeve without stripping the block? Unlikely.  
And if you have to R&R the crank and pistons, wouldn’t starting with another block be easier overall?  🤔
 

It’s the rings that are concerning me.  Certainly the crank and bearings can be R&R just being careful not to get any of them mixed up.  
 

If you R&R the pistons, the rings will certainly rotate and they won’t be in the exact relationship even with the original cylinder wall where they have had even a minimal amount of break in.  Maybe the ring orientation doesn’t matter?  

[automaschinewerks]

it's possible to put in one sleeve - only the head, oil pan, and that cyl's piston needs removed.  you're right though about how close others cyls are to rusting through.  i do it sometimes on tractors with the engine still in the tractor - fords especially have pinholes that come through from the coolant side.

rings rotate around all the time in the groove, that's part of the crosshatch pattern in the cyl.

terry

[dodge28]

Depends on how much money  you intend to spend. To do a good job it is better to strip the engine completely and re sleeve. Use the old parts if they are in good condition. 

[EmTee]

8 hours ago, m-mman said:

And that’s my concern. If one cylinder rusted through, could another be far behind? 

You might investigate whether whoever does the sleeve can perform sonic testing of the cylinders first.

 

8 hours ago, m-mman said:

Is it possible for a machine shop to install one sleeve without stripping the block? Unlikely.

My high school best friend's father had a cylinder sleeved in his Bronco's 302 while still in the truck after it swallowed the air cleaner stud (too short) that my friend had installed to hold an aftermarket chrome air cleaner.  Despite that mishap, the engine ran well with no issues for years afterward.

[Marty Roth]

Why not just head to a reputable junkyard (Recycler) and get a decent "Pre-Owned" but smooth running engine -

that could be done "on the cheap" - especially if you're headed to Concours de Lemons

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, Marty Roth said:

Why not just head to a reputable junkyard (Recycler) and get a decent "Pre-Owned" but smooth running engine -

that could be done "on the cheap" - especially if you're headed to Concours de Lemons

 

 Perhaps too simple , Marty?

 

  Ben

[m-mman]

3 hours ago, Marty Roth said:

Why not just head to a reputable junkyard (Recycler) and get a decent "Pre-Owned" but smooth running engine -

Love to, but the engine was only built 1952 - 1964…… there aren’t many around.  

[60FlatTop]

On 8/23/2023 at 8:30 PM, m-mman said:

we figured that we could just easily assemble the pile 'o parts and drive it around. No real restoration. Minimum expenditure of funds.

Would it be OK if I quoted that for a garage poster. Yesterday I was thinking about something to market as a Christmas gift for car guys.

 

[m-mman]

Sure. 

[Rusty_OToole]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

Would it be OK if I quoted that for a garage poster. Yesterday I was thinking about something to market as a Christmas gift for car guys.

 

Here's one I saw a little while ago. Don't know if it belongs to anyone.

 

 

"NOBODY EVER DREAMED OF PRYING OPEN AN OLD GARAGE AND FINDING A 50 YEAR OLD HYUNDAI"

[Bloo]

16 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

"NOBODY EVER DREAMED OF PRYING OPEN AN OLD GARAGE AND FINDING A 50 YEAR OLD HYUNDAI"

I agree that is funny, and you would probably see a bunch of shirts. The renaissance of the 50 year old Hyundai is coming though, I guarantee it.

[gungeey]

[Marty Roth]

10 minutes ago, Bloo said:

I agree that is funny, and you would probably see a bunch of shirts. The renaissance of the 50 year old Hyundai is coming though, I guarantee it.

Yeah,

Maybe,

But not to my place ...

[Rusty_OToole]

14 hours ago, Marty Roth said:

Why not just head to a reputable junkyard (Recycler) and get a decent "Pre-Owned" but smooth running engine -

that could be done "on the cheap" - especially if you're headed to Concours de Lemons

It crossed my mind that this might be the time to upgrade to a 292, 352 or 390 V8 all of which would fit a 1960 Edsel and look stock. But that is getting into a lot more work and changes. The easiest would be to bolt in a used 223 or 240 six, but those have been out of production for more than 50 years, what are the chances of finding a good one? On the whole the plan of finding another block and swapping in the new parts is probably the best or at least, easiest solution.

 

I'm not a Ford expert so don't know the answer to this, but is the 300 cu in Ford truck six related to the 223 - 240 family? And would one bolt in place of a 223? If so, that might be the best solution.

[Bloo]

The 240 is related to the 300, not the 223.

 

There were never that many 223 out there. The ones that were out there tended to run forever, but were comparatively slow in the huge cars Ford put them in in the middle of the horsepower craze and as such were not popular. It replaced Ford's flathead six, which also is seldom seen. There was a larger displacement 223, I don't remember the size. I think that was only a truck motor that could only theoretically make its way into a Ford-made car the same way a 261 makes it's way into a Chevrolet. I have never seen an instance of that in the wild.

 

The 223 looks like this. Some valve covers have FORD in huge block letters:

 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

The 223 was very popular here in Canada, probably more Fords had the six than the V8s. Both in cars and pickup trucks. I know the 240 was a truck motor but I thought, related to the 223 and the 300 related to the 240. But Ford has a habit of changing things and making them incompatible for no reason so, whether a 300 will fit the Edsel I don't know.

[m-mman]

The 240-300 sixes (introduced in 1965) were made using the thin wall casting technique that was developed for the 260-289. 
 

When installed in passenger cars they were advertised as “The 6 that runs like an 8” 
 

Totally different from the 223. But the 300s were great long lived engines. Especially in trucks.  They were designed for durability. Example they have timing gears not chain. 
 

Had a neighbor with an old pickup with a 300.  He got a bug in him and swapped it out for an FE.  He hated it!  In less than a year he rebuilt and reinstalled the 300.  
 

The FE cut his mileage in half and he said that the FE couldn’t come close to pulling his boat up hills and up the launch ramp. 

[joe_padavano]

Putting the old rotating assembly into a different block almost takes less time than we've been talking about it. I would not reuse the rings (especially if rust pits have potentially scored them). Frankly, I'd just bite the bullet and use new bearings and rings, since I don't like to do things twice. Other than that, just bore the replacement block to match the existing pistons and don't look back.

[DFeeney]

Have you priced a rebuilt short block?   You might be surprised,  All things considered.

[JohnS25]

I have built engines for 30+ years.

if this was my project I would completely disassemble it, have it hot tanked to remove the rust from the water jacket,

have it pressure tested, and if that was the only leak I would have it sleeved, re-hone it and put new cam bearings and rings in it. Then drive the wheels of it.

 

If the pin hole is in the bottom of the cylinder I might try this product. We used to use it in the racing industry pretty heavily back in the day.

Best of luck 

John

[Eldovert]

John beat me to it..I have seen Irontite perform miracles twice.

Cheers,Pat

[Sal Hepatica]

Several good answers, several flippant ones. Trying to find a good used 223 engine is possible, but far from an easy slam dunk. 
That six is a good motor, it's not a oil starved Y block or an FE gas hog. 

The ones that come up for sale are most often in mid-fifties trucks that are going the "hot rod" route. 
BTW- trucks at some point offered a 262 version.