How can this car be an alleged "AACA Grand National Winner"?

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, Ed Luddy said:

Now if this car had been sold and delivered new into Canada you can get the GM Vintage Vehicle documents that detail how it was built, what options, build date and dealership that ordered it. It's too bad they didn't do that in the USA. This is a partial sheet from my 1972 442 convertible

I'm curious if page 2 of that VVS document shows RPO W29. The 1972 442 cars were not supposed to come with the stainless rocker trim, as documented in the 1972 Inspector's Guide.

 

[agtw31]

On 5/8/2023 at 1:14 PM, Avanti Bill said:

I am not a GM or Oldsmobile expert under any circumstances so let me be careful here asking this question.  Are you absolutely certain of your claim in the above statement.  Could this be a  COPO car that was special ordered with the AC and the power brakes?  I know from the marque clubs I have judged and been judged in that there are often anomalies in cars to what are considered the norm.  We have seen documented evidence on cars that have never been touched of "the wrong" bumper or trim piece from the factory.  This is especially true with low production cars or cars with special options. 

 

Lastly I would defend the AACA judging system in that this appears to be a very nicely done car.  Even if this car is incorrect, and I am not disputing this, it is done with what appears to be a correct GM AC unit and brake booster.  This would never be caught under the AACA system if these parts were not available on what is a low production option package.  It is possible that it was never a "W31" car and that badging was added after a GN first.  They claim to have the data plate and if this car is not what it is claimed to be the auction company could and should be at risk though the bidders wave any recourse when registering to bid.    

no it isnt a copo and it didnt get the wrong bumper from the factory

the data plate wont confirm what the car is

the best way to confirm this car is a fake is by pulling off a kick panel

because if it was originally an a/c car the sheet metal behind kick panel would be different from non a/c car

 

[agtw31]

On 5/10/2023 at 2:24 PM, drhach said:

Could these have been dealer installed options? 

they would have to cut the firewall in half.

[Ed Luddy]

Pg2

[Avanti Bill]

2 hours ago, agtw31 said:

no it isnt a copo and it didnt get the wrong bumper from the factory

the data plate wont confirm what the car is

the best way to confirm this car is a fake is by pulling off a kick panel

because if it was originally an a/c car the sheet metal behind kick panel would be different from non a/c car

 

As I said earlier it is most likely that this car was never a W31, but it is all speculation. No AACA judge would be expected to know any of this.

[joe_padavano]

48 minutes ago, Avanti Bill said:

As I said earlier it is most likely that this car was never a W31, but it is all speculation. No AACA judge would be expected to know any of this.

I have not participated in AACA judged shows, but I was under the impression that in the event of a judging question about the availability of certain options, it was the responsibility of the car owner to provide the documentation.

[agtw31]

2 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

I have not participated in AACA judged shows, but I was under the impression that in the event of a judging question about the availability of certain options, it was the responsibility of the car owner to provide the documentation.

years ago at MCACN there was a silver/blue stripe 70 w31 there with the hood closed.

it too had a/c and present owner claimed previous owner installed it.

[8E45E]

26 minutes ago, agtw31 said:

years ago at MCACN there was a silver/blue stripe 70 w31 there with the hood closed.

it too had a/c and present owner claimed previous owner installed it.

Air Conditioning was also a 'dealer option' that could be installed in the field, post-delivery, besides being a factory install.  Whether the dealer was aware a/c was not supposed to be installed in a W-31 equipped car is open to debate.

 

Craig

[West Peterson]

20 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

Air Conditioning was also a 'dealer option' that could be installed in the field, post-delivery, besides being a factory install.  Whether the dealer was aware a/c was not supposed to be installed in a W-31 equipped car is open to debate.

 

Craig

 

But that is easy to spot, as the A/C would be an under-dash unit, whereas factory would be an in-dash unit.

[joe_padavano]

57 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

Air Conditioning was also a 'dealer option' that could be installed in the field, post-delivery, besides being a factory install.  Whether the dealer was aware a/c was not supposed to be installed in a W-31 equipped car is open to debate.

 

Craig

No it was not. As noted multiple times in this thread, this isn't a simple bolt-on under-dash unit. This is an integrated factory installed unit that requires massive disassembly of the car. I find it hilarious that on this site where changing from 6V to 12V is treated like rocket science, people think adding factory-style A/C on this car is a simple dealer add-on. Nothing could be further from the truth, and it STILL misses the point that the vacuum-operated A/C actuators won't work with the W31 cam.

Edited May 23, 2023 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[8E45E]

4 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

No it was not. As noted multiple times in this thread, this isn't a simple bolt-on under-dash unit. This is an integrated factory installed unit that requires massive disassembly of the car. I find it hilarious that on this site where changing from 6V to 12V is equated to rocket science, people think adding factory-style A/C on this car is a simple dealer add-on. Nothing could be further from the truth, and it STILL misses the point that the vacuum-operated A/C actuators won't work with the W31 cam.

The post I responded to did not specify if the previous owner of the MCACN car went through great work (which would almost amount to a rotisserie restoration) to represent a factory-installed a/c unit, or a relatively simple dealer-addon unit.  Speculation on my part if he does not respond and clarify what he actually saw.

 

One can have a sign saying their car is equipped with air conditioning, without specifying which a/c unit it has.

 

Craig

[joe_padavano]

9 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

The post I responded to did not specify if the previous owner of the MCACN car went through great work (which would almost amount to a rotisserie restoration) to represent a factory-installed a/c unit, or a relatively simple dealer-addon unit.  Speculation on my part if he does not respond and clarify what he actually saw.

 

One can have a sign saying their car is equipped with air conditioning, without specifying which a/c unit it has.

 

Craig

The photographs of the car clearly show that it is a factory A/C unit. No "signs" were needed.

 

[joe_padavano]

The plot thickens. This very same car is now on ebay.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/364270808662?hash=item54d03b6e56%3Ag%3AMXgAAOSwkMVkbNdW&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4NA0g80aW01xgGvrrwxHgSHRanhb%2Fl7RCIrLxIJcPhz2iO5pEqAoZ5ClTxBpfs8Wv73nyCfikwqedvhy4ZxgCYolrSd98RRozWuXItYFrzn1P%2BINLm44MbOp3K6KA32MMrHcsgdw%2FdQRBu9kttJ3of8%2BoVq3NEMZ2etmyZBQaaybSt5fCrfNAS6kEqHcXHgSbFORtyr7lwc%2FHjh8uUGmRovgJk1HDwF2LvVEN65GzADmBhtW8FKDnBMMkt2yLKSXELa3YfAz8z4qe9v4sTHVKZ4jyFBin%2Bi8PL4UMpgaxdKf|tkp%3ABk9SR8S3mKSJYg&LH_ItemCondition=3000|1000|2500

[8E45E]

2 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

The photographs of the car clearly show that it is a factory A/C unit. No "signs" were needed.

It has been concluded by several here this auction car is a fake because of the factory intalled a/c and power brakes.    

 

Is this the same car that was at MCACN?

 

Craig

[Steve Moskowitz]

6 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

I have not participated in AACA judged shows, but I was under the impression that in the event of a judging question about the availability of certain options, it was the responsibility of the car owner to provide the documentation.

Joe, I have stayed out of this thread a bit as it seemed to go all over the place and explanations by many have not been accepted or listened to.  So goes social media.  You are absolutely correct in this but with every car, motorcycle and truck foreign or domestic made since the beginning to 1998 our club cannot expect every judging team to know everything and be able to ask the owner for the documentation.  Naturally if something like a supercharger was on the car or a purple color they would ask but I am not sure anyone of our 1,000 judges would have caught this. I am sure that the team never asked for documentation on the a/c.  As I also said, at this moment I do not know if the car in question actually won those badges.

 

For instance my 1908 Model X Olds was the only one in the US when I restored it.  They made only 55.  The judges knew me and laughed when they came by as they had no clue as to what was right or wrong.  I advised them that if they had a question I had full documentation available.  AACA judging cannot get as finite as NCRS or other marque judging.  the 1200 cars at Hershey would take us a week or more.  

[8E45E]

35 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

 Naturally if something like a supercharger was on the car or a purple color they would ask but I am not sure anyone of our 1,000 judges would have caught this.   

Here is your purple example:

 

 

[DFeeney]

All clubs experience these same problems with judging.  Some more than others.   I try to set them aside and enjoy what is supposed to be a fun Hobby.   If my car makes it back to the Club Motel at a meet, I consider it the same as winning "Best of Show"

[joe_padavano]

12 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Here is your purple example:

 

 

This car is well known in the Olds community. I personally have no idea if it was painted this color from the factory or not, but Oldsmobile DID have a process and RPO codes for getting cars painted special colors from the factory, so at least it COULD have been. That's how cars got painted Mary Kay pink or Yellow Cab orange, for example. Unfortunately the only thing on the cowl tag would be a "- -" instead of the paint code, so other paperwork would be needed to prove the actual color that left the factory.

[edinmass]

 

I sit back and watch this post and think how similar brass, CCCA Classics, and other early cars are all having the same issues as to factory and authenticity concerns. I know absolutely nothing about post war build sheets, factory options, dealer installs, ect. One thing is perfectly clear. Provenance is essential to any above average value car in its particular category. With early great cars.....if you don't have a photo of it in the 30's or 40's and a paper trail the car today will NOT do the numbers that most owners think. The hobby is evolving as it has the past 75 years............with the easy access to information.......both good and bad.........documented cars with absolutely no stories will ALWAYS bring the big money........cars with no history, a story, questionable add ons and modifications..........will just not do well in the marketplace. I think most people agree today the amount of disposable income for 90 percent of the population is dropping with inflation and a dozen other factors. The new buyers in the hobby with the deep pockets hire people to do the research. Fact is, most great cars no longer get to the auction unless it's people who don't really know the market. With overall values of the cars stagnent or decreasing because of inflation the market has a huge amount of inventory available. Buy what you like and pretend it will be worth zero when you're done with it.............otherwise you are very likely to be disappointed. What is really killing the market? Restoration costs and lack of parts availability. Hell.....you can't even find early Ford V-8 reproduction parts anymore...........things change, and they will continue to evolve. Drive your car and enjoy it..........thanks for the thread. It's been interesting.

Edited May 24, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[8E45E]

I have found this to be an excellent "heads-up" thread for someone who is in the market for car such this one.

 

Those who are 'marque specialists' have obviously taken the time to do their research and document as closely as possible each and every car, especially cars that may have either had a deviation permit to paint it a non-stock color, or had certain options on it that weren't officially offered.    Thankfully, for many cars and trucks, the build documents still exist, while for some, they unfortunately do not.  I know of Chevrolet trucks painted Camaro 'Rallye Green' of the era that show "--" as per the data plate.  And Cadillac used '999' for a special order color, including a policy where one could order a brand new one in a previous year's color.  The list can go on.  

 

Craig

[West Peterson]

Someone could ask the seller now that it's on Ebay what the build sheet looks like.

[Brass is Best]

On 5/8/2023 at 10:23 AM, John_S_in_Penna said:

Joe, you have every right to ask questions.  It's your club.

 

Another question might be to the auction company:

For a car whose estimated value is over $100,000, and

which they are representing, shouldn't they be doing

a little knowledgeable fact-checking too?

Most auction company's terms state that all information comes from the seller. They go on to say anything that the auction company says, prints, or dose means nothing and is just for entertainment. Furthermore, it is the sole responsibility of the bidder to inspect the item being sold and form their own opinion.

[edinmass]

 

The best fiction being written in America today are auction catalogs...........

[8E45E]

3 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

The best fiction being written in America today are auction catalogs...........

Fiction? Or windbaggery?

 

Craig

[Walt G]

A lot of "experts" out there 'cause day read it on da internet' . Trying to track the history of a pre war car can be worse. There are a lot of auto show cars - ok, is that the regular auto show that the general public  could attend  or the auto salons held in only 4 locations in the USA and all run by the same organization? BIG difference between an annual Auto show and a automobile salon ( the salons could only be viewed if you got an invitation in the mail!!)

One can trace a custom bodied car at the automobile salons that started in NY and then worked their way west if you have the programs issued for each salon and look at what they list or show in advertisements by the custom body builder. Where do you find those souvenir programs? you don't.  I know of no library or collection that has a full run of all the programs issued at the 4 salons for every year from pre WWI to 1932 when they ceased to exist.

[joe_padavano]

52 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

Someone could ask the seller now that it's on Ebay what the build sheet looks like.

Unfortunately there won't be one. Lansing typically threw the build sheets away at the end of the assembly line, and all W31s were built at Lansing. This is a huge problem in the Oldsmobile world and why identifying fakes is such an issue. Using an AACA award to "justify" the car was my original issue in this thread.

[West Peterson]

Did they not stuff anything under seats? Or on top of gas tanks, etc.?

[edinmass]

50 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

Fiction? Or windbaggery?

 

Craig

 

Fraud.........and they all know it. Best way to figure out if a car is real or not.......or has some secret story, look at the auction house. The "good" ones take cars back way more often than you think........I am not involved with any of them, but am aware of the lawsuits and take backs that occur. Lots of court cases filed.......and they go away if the new owners have very deep pockets. Use private party treaty sales...........less expense, better sales numbers, and many other reasons. Generally only cars over 250k benefit from private sales.........any lower and the numbers may or may not work.........for auction or brokers. 

[Billy Kingsley]

After reading this entire thread, one thing is in my mind that has only been glossed over briefly...is that the (eventual) buyer and seller probably don't care if it is original or not. The vast majority of the car hobby doesn't care much about that sort of thing. To borrow a term from outside the hobby, we are the "lunatic fringe". We are not the norm. 

 

I'm Proud to be part of the lunatic fringe, by the way.

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, Billy Kingsley said:

After reading this entire thread, one thing is in my mind that has only been glossed over briefly...is that the (eventual) buyer and seller probably don't care if it is original or not. The vast majority of the car hobby doesn't care much about that sort of thing. To borrow a term from outside the hobby, we are the "lunatic fringe". We are not the norm. 

 

 

Why buy a car with problems of provanance when 98 percent of the time you can buy a real car for the same or close money. The smart move is to buy the best car you can(history and condition.).....in the long run cars with great histories always do better.......as a return on investment, and much easier sale when you want out.

[Bloo]

3 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Fiction? Or windbaggery?

 

[Bloo]

It has been my experience that clubs that have judging seem to get more of the details written down for posterity. Of course there is some ambiguity, and possible variation at a some given factory on some given day. Sometimes this devolves into restorers shooting for a target of "what the judges will like". That isn't very useful from a historical perspective, but still overall more real history seems to get written down when restorers and judges want to see it. I tend to gravitate to clubs that prioritize driving over judged shows, but also notice that simple questions like "what color was the engine" are unanswerable for some marques, never mind more complicated "screw police" questions.

 

I am grateful to those who preserve the history.

 

[Walt G]

3 minutes ago, Bloo said:

am grateful to those who preserve the history.

AS AM I. we all should be but there are a few that take history for granted , do not want to spend the time ( hours, days, months etc) it takes to make the effort to document it all.

"Myths become facts if around long enough " is a favored expression of mine.  This goes well beyond just the vehicles.  General local history for houses, buildings and even people of who did what.................. I am very much a hands on type as perhaps you have gathered.

[joe_padavano]

3 hours ago, West Peterson said:

Did they not stuff anything under seats? Or on top of gas tanks, etc.?

Not Lansing. I've owned over two dozen Oldsmobiles and only ever found three build sheets, on top of the gas tank in Fremont, CA and Framingham, MA cars and in the back seat springs on a Fairfax, KS car.

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

I found the IBM broadcast card in a Lansing-built 1974 Hurst/Olds, and build sheets in one Linden and one KC built 70s full-size Olds. Other than those, never in a Lansing car.

 

That does make performance Oldsmobiles (most were built in Lansing) hard to document.

 

Again, quality of work isn't the issue with this car. The combination of options is a big issue.

 

Has anyone seen a picture of the engine's harmonic balancer? and compared engine VIN derivative to the car's VIN? I know that's splitting hairs, but it bothers me when a vehicle is advertised as something it shouldn't be. Bothers me worse when uninformed and/or unscrupulous try to pass it off as a correct and authentic car. 

 

In these days of rapid-fire information and AI, such misinformation spreads quickly.

[edinmass]

44 minutes ago, Bloo said:

I am grateful to those who preserve the history.

 

As Randy Ema says very often when restoring Duesenbergs ........"I preserve history, I don't change it." And I agree 100 percent. 

[8E45E]

49 minutes ago, Bloo said:

I am grateful to those who preserve the history.

Me too!

 

Craig

[8E45E]

54 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

Not Lansing. I've owned over two dozen Oldsmobiles and only ever found three build sheets, on top of the gas tank in Fremont, CA and Framingham, MA cars and in the back seat springs on a Fairfax, KS car.

 

I believe there were at least three copies made of every build sheet; one (or a master) for Oldsmobile Division's records to keep the IRS happy and placed in their files, a second for the comptroller's office, and third for the assembly line.  If the assembly line copy in Lansing got discarded, where did the other two end up?

 

Craig

[Billy Kingsley]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Why buy a car with problems of provanance when 98 percent of the time you can buy a real car for the same or close money. The smart move is to buy the best car you can(history and condition.).....in the long run cars with great histories always do better.......as a return on investment, and much easier sale when you want out.

 

Oh I agree completely, but we are in the minority in the hobby. 

 

I generally don't even like the performance models, and I hate "clone" cars with a passion. 

[rocketraider]

Even "clones" now have better PR. They're now called "tributes".

 

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...🦆 just don't try to tell me it's a peacock!