In defense of upside down Landau Irons

[John Kelso]

As I looked at the Pebble Beach pictures and read some of the comments about Landau Irons I was sitting beside my Pierce with a

California Top by the Morgan Co. First picture is from the Morgan Catalogue, of note is the position of the bars on the coupe and touring car.

Two other pictures are of my Pierce and of a 1933 Lincoln

Looking closely at the touring car and the shape of the windows I see no way they could be turned around plus the literature confirms they are in the correct position.  The Lincoln irons are functional and in this case are installed in the accepted method

[West Peterson]

The knobby pivot in the middle needs to be on the top, as in your functional Lincoln top. The irons on the non-functioning top of your touring, even though presented in the factory literature as being mounted that way, are not "correct" in that they do not represent a landau iron that could be functional. As mentioned in the PB thread, some of the fixed-top cars had them wrong from the factory, but nobody would have noticed since they weren't functioning.

[TAKerry]

Im glad I dont have a car with landau irons. All this has my head spinning, LOL. I do see the difference, and understand why so many people can get excited over them. I think if the top is fixed and they are there for decoration it really doesnt matter, but I suppose they should be correct. Being a carpenter I get crazy when I see a barn door or gate with the diagonal going the wrong direction ( I suppose that happens about as often as landau bars being on wrong).

[John Kelso]

Correct? Not correct? There is the factory literature, what is not correct?

[TAKerry]

2 minutes ago, JAK said:

Correct? Not correct? There is the factory literature, what is not correct?

I had a motorcycle judged by the AMCA, points were deducted because of some chrome. I had (but not with me at the time) period pics that proved my bike correct. IF I presented them to the right person I would have got the points back. I suppose if you run into an issue with the irons the factory literature should tell the story!

[edinmass]

There are too many Internet experts who have never restored a car, or  done 10 minutes worth of research. If you don’t have your own automotive library, you probably shouldn’t be commenting on authenticity. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

There are one and two man Touring car tops, so how about some Landau Iron equipped top folding lessons. Once you unlatch the header from the windshield, does on step out and brake both Landau Irons or do you stay in the car and fold the bows back? 

[nzcarnerd]

There are some landau irons that just look wrong - like on this 1931 Buick, which is a fixed top coupe. I think they should be taken off and swapped side to side and turned up the other way - 

 

Curbside Classic: 1931 Buick 96 Country Club Coupe – The Eight As Buick Built It | Curbside Classic

 

 

 

 

 

[wayne sheldon]

The old philosophical joke is that there are absolutely NO absolutes!

For every rule, there are exceptions. Somewhere, there must be a rule for which there are NO exceptions, which, will in fact make that rule the exception to the "there are exceptions" rule.

Is your head spinning yet?

 

There are dozens of types of tops for basically open cars. I don't even know the proper names for half of them. I suspect a lot of them do not have proper names?

I wish I had a hundred photos showing closeups of most of the various types. But I do not. 

 

Dummy landau irons/bars as has been said by others as well as myself, don't really hurt much if they are installed wrongly. However, they are supposed to look like the real thing. And "usually" the real thing, the "live" irons, are mounted a certain way because they function better that way. Generally, they should not extend out away from the folded top when the top is down. But there were exceptions. One does not want milady to bump her head or tear her sleeve catching onto the landau irons extending beyond the back of the folded top! But, maybe milady never walks to the rear of the carriage, and who cares if the footman tears his coat or bumps his head?

 

The original historic purpose for landau irons was to lock or latch the top into a fixed position when the top was up. They extended from one bow to the next, and snapped into place held by the tension of the top material between the bows. They were often near the outer extended end of the bows, and folded inward (relative to the two dimensional near side of the bows) to tuck neatly away when the top was lowered.

This method did not require an attachment to a windshield (which many carriages and early automobiles did not have!), nor did it require straps reaching down to the front of the automobile (a place most horse drawn carriages did NOT have). 

 

I couldn't quickly find a photo showing a top that did not also have straps down to the front of the car. However, this top could have been freestanding without the straps.

I tried to snatch a recent photo off the internet, but it had a block element, and I don't generally try to get around those.

A lot of early model Ts did use the straps down to the front of the car. They show in many era photos. 

 

I may have to change my opinion on the McFarlan with the cape top. Looking through a bunch of early model T photos (1909 and 1910), I see several early style tops with similar landau irons that flip the unusual way, especially the early roadsters. Perhaps it was a vintage style thing? I have rarely ever seen 1920s cars done that way.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)

[edinmass]

The top iron controversy is easy to solve………don’t buy a car that has them. Especially ones that are faux. 

[prewarnut]

We should keep in mind there are 4 different ways to install and 3 out of 4 are wrong. The 4 ways are a matrix of: hinge button up, hinge button down, initial curve (from front to back) convex down, curve concave down. I won't be the one to state which is correct here....

[nzcarnerd]

With regard to JAK's Pierce I have tried to visualise whether you could do the side to side and turn up the other way swap but it might not work?

 

I wonder who many different makers made those 'fake' irons.

 

 

[nzcarnerd]

Then comes the issue of just where to put the bottom 'pin' of the iron. Most cars with fake irons in the later 1920s had them in a spot in the top fabric where they obviously could not work if they were functional but Buick, around 1930-31 like in my comment above, put the bottom pin in the upper flanks where they looks more 'real'.

 

The guy who restored my Studebaker in the 1980s wouldn't have had internet access so put the pin where he best guessed.

 

First photo is my car (the rumble seat steps are on the left), the second is the only other known example of this model (now in Oregon as far as I know), and the third is a colourised factory photo. I am still hoping another one might turn up. 

 

I have said this before - but I reckon thsi model has one of the best looking derrieres of any car of its time.

 

 

[West Peterson]

5 hours ago, JAK said:

Correct? Not correct? There is the factory literature, what is not correct?

 

 

Let me state it a little differently: The factory did not completely succeed in faking the look of operating landau bars.

 

[Gunsmoke]

So here are a pair of 1929 Packard Convertible Coupes, who is the authority on which set of landau bars is correct, or are both correct, one is a model 633, other an 8cyl. I'm guessing there are to many possibilities over the years on how these were from the factory and how restorers decided they should look.

[nzcarnerd]

29 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

So here are a pair of 1929 Packard Convertible Coupes, who is the authority on which set of landau bars is correct, or are both correct, one is a model 633, other an 8cyl. I'm guessing there are to many possibilities over the years on how these were from the factory and how restorers decided they should look.

Ad they say the 'proof of the pudding is in the eating'.

 

The red one looks wrong - but does it work? It would be interesting to know who the original coachbuilder was in each case. Interesting that both have the bottom pin in the fabric.

[West Peterson]

9 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

So here are a pair of 1929 Packard Convertible Coupes, who is the authority on which set of landau bars is correct, or are both correct, one is a model 633, other an 8cyl. I'm guessing there are to many possibilities over the years on how these were from the factory and how restorers decided they should look.

 

It's not rocket science, folks. The pivot ball needs to be on the upper portion of the folding mechanism, unless the bars are supposed to hang out onto the turtle deck (or beyond the back body tub).

[Restorer32]

As West says.  Visualize how the irons would look folded.  In most cases if the center knob is on the bottom the irons when folded will hang out over the rear deck. One of my pet peeves.

[coachJC]

9 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

So here are a pair of 1929 Packard Convertible Coupes, who is the authority on which set of landau bars is correct, or are both correct, one is a model 633, other an 8cyl. I'm guessing there are to many possibilities over the years on how these were from the factory and how restorers decided they should look.

Backwards Landau Iron and white wall tire....what is the world coming to...😁

[John_S_in_Penna]

12 hours ago, edinmass said:

The top iron controversy is easy to solve………don’t buy a car that has them. Especially ones that are faux. 

But the entire point is that some were, clearly,

that way when new.  So there is nothing that

needs "solving"!

 

Thank you, JAK, for this interesting historical insight.

[Restorer32]

Landaus are always mounted "upside down" on hearses.

[8E45E]

12 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Dummy landau irons/bars as has been said by others as well as myself, don't really hurt much if they are installed wrongly.  But there were exceptions. One does not want milady to bump her head or tear her sleeve catching onto the landau irons extending beyond the back of the folded top! But, maybe milady never walks to the rear of the carriage, and who cares if the footman tears his coat or bumps his head?

I can just imagine seeing BRIGHT ORANGE warning labels at the pinch points on them if they were still in use today!!

 

Craig

[8E45E]

3 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Landaus are always mounted "upside down" on hearses.

And '67 to '72 Thunderbirds.

 

Craig

[West Peterson]

32 minutes ago, coachJC said:

Backwards Landau Iron and white wall tire....what is the world coming to...😁

 

These aren't backwards. They look a little wrong in this photo because it doesn't look like it's locked in place. The ones on the red car are backwards.

[Walt G]

Lots of discussion and even more based on opinion . As John notes, and Jax states. Why not look at period images printed in sales literature, period photographs, Dealer's Bulletins, salesman's data books. What you see there is the fact. the AACA library has to have some of this.

It takes time to research to find examples on assorted makes ( both domestic and European) I never make a statement in print or in person that I can't back up with a period image. I will state again - lots of opinions, and indeed myth becomes fact if it is around long enough.........................

[West Peterson]

15 minutes ago, Walt G said:

Lots of discussion and even more based on opinion . As John notes, and Jax states. Why not look at period images printed in sales literature, period photographs, Dealer's Bulletins, salesman's data books. What you see there is the fact. the AACA library has to have some of this.

It takes time to research to find examples on assorted makes ( both domestic and European) I never make a statement in print or in person that I can't back up with a period image. I will state again - lots of opinions, and indeed myth becomes fact if it is around long enough.........................

 

I'm not sure what you mean by opinions, Walt. It is fact that the location of the pivot ball indicates which way the bars will fold.

[Walt G]

West, the "opinions" are all the comments about who believes what should be where, top or bottom and then show photos etc. , that to me is what I mean by opinions , or perhaps the word 'statements' would be better? - hope that is a bit clearer for you and all reading this.

[Gunsmoke]

I'm with Walt 100% on this issue (and similar style issues), we need to be cautious about assuming everyone did things the same way, or even that one manufacturer always did it one way, or the factory guys always got it right. To prove the point, here are 2 1929 Packard convertible coupes similar to those I posted yesterday, with their folded landaus. I'm not prepared to tell either owner that theirs are right or wrong. For the ones that fold rearward, remember the top material typically went back several inches, and canvas boot would have covered everything and left side of car clear. While I prefer look of those that fold forward when they are folded, my engineering mind suggest gravity should require the knuckle to be on bottom when they are opened. Is there a lesson here? Yes, don't assume anything, because we all know that word can make an ASS out of U and ME. 

[West Peterson]

The bars on the red car are definitely mounted incorrectly.  The top is a hot mess and cannot be folded correctly. There may be other problems as well.

 

[Gunsmoke]

Great photo of the Packard 633 3/4 C/Coupe WP, is it a pre-production pic, note hood paint does not seem to match rest of car? Note it's a 2/4 passenger, some 2's may have folded tops a bit different than 2/4's related to the space behind front seats.

[West Peterson]

2 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

Great photo of the Packard 633 3/4 C/Coupe WP, is it a pre-production pic, note hood paint does not seem to match rest of car? Note it's a 2/4 passenger, some 2's may have folded tops a bit different than 2/4's related to the space behind front seats.

 

It was not available as a "2". They all had rumble seats.

 

[Restorer32]

At least on Packards folding landau bars serve no real purpose other than decoration.  They do not "snap" into place.  We have made probably several dozen sets of these landaus over the years and there is no "over center" on the hinge. People sometimes mount the bars with the center knob down because their top material is not tight enough to cause the landau bars to remain straight when the top is up.

[West Peterson]

39 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

At least on Packards folding landau bars serve no real purpose other than decoration.  They do not "snap" into place.  We have made probably several dozen sets of these landaus over the years and there is no "over center" on the hinge. People sometimes mount the bars with the center knob down because their top material is not tight enough to cause the landau bars to remain straight when the top is up.

 

You and I usually agree on most things, Jeff, but I disagree with you in regard to them not "snapping" into place.

I just took these photos. With the landau bar "relaxed," note that the top is still tight, yet the top doesn't "pull" the landau bar together. When I completely "unfold" the landau bars, it definitely moves into place with a significant "snap". Maybe we're using the word "snap" differently. When I say "snap", I mean it really "bangs" into place, is tight, and takes some aggressive pushing on the pivot to start folding it.

 

[West Peterson]

I made a little video:

 

[Restorer32]

Your experience may vary.

[Restorer32]

It snaps into place but the hinge joint does not go over center. In all the landaus I have examined the ends of the joint are parallel rather than angled.  Same on '32-'34 Packard Coupe Roadsters with internal landaus.

 

  

[Gunsmoke]

The landau bars " snap" together when the 2 end points are fixed (WITH ONLY A SMALL AMOUNT OF "GIVE"", and the distance end points is slightly shorter than the landau bars. This is possible for example on WP's photos because in these types of convertible tops the upper pivot point is solidly connected to a wood door post piece that cannot move much. Remember many landau bars are connected to a bow that is only anchored in place by a mix of side irons and canvas top, leaving lots of play. It is those types of tops that rely on fabric tautness to keep everything together, they may need landau bars that fold in other direction (upwards), or need a hidden perhaps spring loaded locking mechanism. No simple answer to the overall question "which way is correct".

[CHuDWah]

Having restored a Model A Ford Sport Coupe (non-folding cloth top with dummy irons), one of my peeves is incorrectly installed landau irons.  The Model A is arguably the most documented old car so this ain't rocket surgery, but I still see many incorrect installations.  The passenger side should look like a letter S and the driver side should look like a backward S - the knob is toward the rear of the car on both sides.  The Cabriolet (folding cloth top and hinged irons) configuration is the same.  This diagram is correct and is supported by factory photos and brochures:

Disclaimer: This applies to Model A and perhaps other Fords.  Other makes, YMMV.

[West Peterson]

1 hour ago, Gunsmoke said:

No simple answer to the overall question "which way is correct".

We will have to agree to disagree.

[nzcarnerd]

This thread started with the picture of the Morgan 'California' tops and the 'back to front' iron - at least it is as I and obviously some other see it - on the touring top but has moved on to all types. 

 

I see three different types of irons:-

 

1 - the fake type stuck to the side of a sedan or coupe, and also with the Morgan California top, fashionable in the late 1920s, but also on more recent hearse etc.

 

2 - the fake type, mounted proud of the body which actually looks like a proper iron - as on my Studebaker, and on that black '31 Buick I posted above - which by the way I will say again just looks so wrong mounted way they are.

 

The thread has evolved into discussion on the third type - 

 

3 - the real, functioning ones. Those are something I have not had any experience with but as I asked in a reply to the pic of the red Packard - does the 'back to front' one work?  It seems it may do?  So from the point of function over form it doesn't matter which way they go.

 

A question relating to the Packards with their tops folded, posted by Gunsmoke. Can they be driven at any speed with the top like that, or do they fit a 'top boot'? I guess you could cruise at relatively low speed but then to any passengers in the rumble seat the folded top would look as if it was going to overwhelm them. 

 

Over to the experts.