Today’s Lacquer Paint, Better Than Before?

[Fleetwood Meadow]

I am looking at repainting the newly stripped fender on my Cadillac, the one in the restoration section of this site. I am planning to paint the car blue and while I am taking everything apart and cleaning it up I want to paint a color layer onto the areas I have repaired so they are protected. This will not be the final paint as I will more than likely be sending it out to be done. I found a product that Rust-oleum makes called Custom Lacquer. They say it is “50% more durable.” The debate of what type of paint to use has been brought up and when I think of lacquer I think of the paint jobs that have cracks in them and the sun’s uv rays destroy them. Not to mention having to cut and buff them constantly. Are today’s lacquers different than that? If I like this color enough to want it as my final color would it withstand the elements?

Edited June 23, 2022 by Fleetwood Meadow
Added picture (see edit history)

[Bloo]

NO!

 

No rustoleum rattle cans for patch work PERIOD, lacquer or otherwise. I have made this mistake. Do not do it. It is almost impossible to get rid of. Lacquer has become unmanageable to use the way we used to use it for patching because the primers, etc. that you might need no longer exist in rattle cans if they exist at all. Don't believe me? Try to find a can of sandable lacquer primer. Once upon a time, all or nearly all sandable primer was lacquer. Spray some lacquer, or whatever is in that can they are calling lacquer over some current "sandable primer" and you will have problems with wrinkling, shrinking, bad adhesion, etc. It will continue to move around and change for at least a year. You can sand it all off if you like, but when you think it is all gone.... it isn't.

 

[Pfeil]

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

NO!

 

No rustoleum rattle cans for patch work PERIOD, lacquer or otherwise. I have made this mistake. Do not do it. It is almost impossible to get rid of. Lacquer has become unmanageable to use the way we used to use it for patching because the primers, etc. that you might need no longer exist in rattle cans if they exist at all. Don't believe me? Try to find a can of sandable lacquer primer. Once upon a time, all or nearly all sandable primer was lacquer. Spray some lacquer, or whatever is in that can they are calling lacquer over some current "sandable primer" and you will have problems with wrinkling, shrinking, bad adhesion, etc. It will continue to move around and change for at least a year. You can sand it all off if you like, but when you think it is all gone.... it isn't.

 

N/G?  

[Bloo]

13 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

N/G?  

 

I have not seen or tried that have you? I'd like some if it works like it should. It isn't a rattle can though, so probably isn't going to help for the sort of patches @Fleetwood Meadow asked about. I am intrigued though. Thanks for posting it.

 

[Fleetwood Meadow]

I wasn’t necessarily asking just for the fenders. I was just setting the scene. I was wondering if lacquers paints have gotten to be less maintenance and more resilient to the sun’s uv rays as they are notoriously linked. 

[Bloo]

In my experience lacquers have become completely unusable, so no, that is definitely not an improvement. If you intend to paint the whole car eventually, I would recommend that you NOT go that direction even if lacquer had improved. I say that and I am a fan of lacquer!

 

All the stuff that gets put on should be 2-part, right down to the bare metal, and ESPECIALLY the first coat on bare metal, which should be a 2 part epoxy even if you intend to use some old fashioned finish like lacquer, acrylic enamel, or synthetic enamel. If you are going to use modern paint, it should all be from the same "system" as your painter will use. The problem is the 2-part stuff is dangerous to shoot and requires really good personal protective equipment. In addition to 2-part paints, this is also true of any old fashioned paint that uses an optional hardener, as acrylic enamel and synthetic enamel do, and aren't much good without.

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

58 minutes ago, Bloo said:

 

I have not seen or tried that have you? I'd like some if it works like it should. It isn't a rattle can though, so probably isn't going to help for the sort of patches @Fleetwood Meadow asked about. I am intrigued though. Thanks for posting it.

 

Well, No, I've got a car that's 1/4 done. It's all epoxy primed and have done some sanding primer, but I don't have enough. I've got two gallons of primer sealer and two gallons of color, and I have about 55 gallons of medium temp lacquer thinner. I'm just not ready yet because of other things ( just finished an engine that was unexpected) so I haven't hit the paint supply store to see what they can do.  This looks promising though.  

[SC38dls]

Find the color you want to paint the car at an auto paint store that will put the paint in a rattle can. It cost a little more but it makes it easy to spray the places on the car that may not be seen but need protection. That way you know it works well and you won’t have a color mismatch. 
dave s 

[Walt G]

Dave S stated that well - Make sure you go to an auto paint supplier who serves the local body shops etc. not the local auto parts store that also sells fuzzy dice and cardboard trees that you hang from the rear view mirror to make the car smell like a forest.  HUGE difference. You need a paint supplier that serves the industry and even then it may take them a few days to get what you need because the demand for what you ask although is still there isn't strong so they don't fill shelve space with cans/gallons of stuff that will just sit. I found that out within the past 6 months or so when I went to the auto paint supplier that has been in business since the 1930s; asked for assorted lacquer thinners ( slow, fast, medium) and was told they could get it in a day or so but only had a "medium" all purpose on hand right then as that was what was /is in demand. They want to sell in volume, so just be thankful they will try to accommodate the "little guy" - you and me who does their own work in their garage.
I don't know how to use 2 part anything, learned with lacquer in the very early 1970s and used that on 3 total restorations I did. Lacquer can chip , crack sure - BUT the one car I did ( custom body salon car from 1931) is still wearing the paint I put on it when I finished it in 1972 and has been driven thousands of miles on the road by me in all kinds of weather.

Many will view lacquer with the "ooooo it is a bad bad thing , just nasty and naughty" it is the only paint i know how to use on panels and body work - even restore my 1920s steel toy trucks with it. No checking or cracking if applied correctly.

[Guest]

TODAYS RATTEL CANS ARE NO WAY THE SAME AS THE ORIGINAL LACQUERE AND SHOULD NEVER BE USED TO PAINT A CAR!

 

 Sorry for the caps but I wanted to make a point.

 Todays paints are far superior to older paints and many are hart to tell apart from lacquer except they are better.

 

 It is never a good idea to use paint from different manufactures on the same paint job. They are chemically different and do not crosslink properly for a good bond. 

(Paint does not dry, it reacts to different ingredients in them and hardens.)

[64avanti]

23 minutes ago, Roger Walling said:

It is never a good idea to use paint from different manufactures on the same paint job. They are chemically different and do not crosslink properly for a good bond. 

(Paint does not dry, it reacts to different ingredients in them and hardens.)

Actually, this is not necessarily true. Over on the SPI (Southern Polyurethanes) forum there are a whole bunch of pros and amateurs who commonly use SPI epoxy, then SlickSand, more SPI epoxy, any brand of base, then SPI clear.

 

As for lacquer, there are just so many different types of paint today that are more durable and easier to maintain that it doesn't make sense to most painters to use lacquer.

 

Lacquer does have a certain "look", I will grant you that. I don't have any comparative experience with lacquer vs. modern finishes, so I can't say that the lacquer "look" can or cannot be duplicated.

 

[Walt G]

My liking lacquer is due to the fact if you get a scratch or chip you can repair a spot the size of a dime and not have to repaint a whole panel, and blend it in. I agree that there are different types of lacquer - nitrocellulose is the original material that was put on pre WWII era cars , acrylic replaced that and now ................clear lacquer can be a top coat or mixed with the color for the final few coats to add durability to the clear and stop checking/cracking of the surface.  Again lacquer is the only thing I use so I don't have all types of thinners, hardeners, primers, top coats etc. and can stay focused. My collection is pre WWII era, and i can blend in new lacquer with a 80+ year old original finish no issue. Takes practice of course, but so does a standard shift car with no 'synchros' between gears . Yes I am very much "old school".  ( and some friends just thought - yeah and the emphasis is on the first word - Old)

Everyone has their own comfort zone .

[CChinn]

Walt, “Old” = Wise

[Frank DuVal]

1 hour ago, 64avanti said:

Actually, this is not necessarily true. Over on the SPI (Southern Polyurethanes) forum there are a whole bunch of pros and amateurs who commonly use SPI epoxy, then SlickSand, more SPI epoxy, any brand of base, then SPI clear.

Ah Ha! But, then you know others have done it with good results. Doing it by the seat of only your pants is a gamble. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. That is why forums can be so good!👍

[SC38dls]

Thanks to Walt’s and others advice on lacquer I was able to get a match in color for my 38 in rattle cans. This made it possible for me to blend in the front end repair after my accident. As Walt stated and I think I implied, by using an auto paint supply store getting the paint color you want someone to paint your car in rattle cans you will have a match for the hidden parts you want to paint. That type of rattle cans would be the same type of paint for the rest of the car. It’s just an easy way to paint hidden areas the proper color. How can that be bad enough to shout no way to us? 
dave s 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Walt G said:

My liking lacquer is due to the fact if you get a scratch or chip you can repair a spot the size of a dime and not have to repaint a whole panel, and blend it in.

 That is a good benefit of lacquer and not many people actually know the true beauty of lacquer except some timers like us. I think the closest thing that I have seen is buffed original Imron.

 

 Ah! the good days when the only choice  was  Duco and Dulux.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Roger Walling (see edit history)

[64avanti]

1 hour ago, SC38dls said:

Thanks to Walt’s and others advice on lacquer I was able to get a match in color for my 38 in rattle cans. This made it possible for me to blend in the front end repair after my accident. As Walt stated and I think I implied, by using an auto paint supply store getting the paint color you want someone to paint your car in rattle cans you will have a match for the hidden parts you want to paint. That type of rattle cans would be the same type of paint for the rest of the car. It’s just an easy way to paint hidden areas the proper color. How can that be bad enough to shout no way to us? 
dave s 

In order to get the paint to spray out of a rattle can requires extreme thinning of the paint, so many many more coats are necessary to achieve coverage.

 

A test for those with spray equipment: buy a can of Rust-Oleum paint any type and color, in both a rattle can and a brushable quart. Thin the brushable just enough to spray it out of your gun. Get a couple of spray out cards online or from an automotive paint store. Spray one with the rattle can and one with your gun.

 

I guarantee that it will take many more coats to cover with the rattle cans. In fact, your thinned down quart of paint will be equal to, I don't know, a dozen or more rattle cans? Which is why painters don't like rattle cans. Not that it doesn't work, just that it is an inefficient and expensive way to apply paint.

[Rusty_OToole]

What about painting or primering with a brush or roller? Does this avoid the hazard of spraying toxic paint? I vaguely recall that there are primers made for body shop use that are applied this way.

[Bloo]

28 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

What about painting or primering with a brush or roller? Does this avoid the hazard of spraying toxic paint?

Still hazardous, but it has to be a lot better than spraying. There have also been several instances of people using Rustoleum/Tremclad Rust-Stop enamel with some cheap hardener and a brush, and then colorsanding to a decent finish.

 

28 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

I vaguely recall that there are primers made for body shop use that are applied this way.

If I remember correctly several years ago @60FlatTop posted the name of a 2-part surfacer (or was it a sealer?) that was made to be rolled or brushed. There was no distributor within thousands of miles of me. I want some though.

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

64avanti. I did the two front fenders on my 38 Studebaker in black rattle can with 5 cans of matched acrylic lacquer for $105 having the auto paint guys matched an engine side panel. I couldn’t find a local shop willing to work on a 82 year old car. So with the help of forum members I fixed it myself then never having painted a car and not having the equipment I did the paint 

[Walt G]

I can appreciate all the advice and everyone wanting to help, but will ask the question ( not trying to offend anyone) is this from first hand , hands on experience? Have you actually done what you are suggesting is the right way to do something? Anything I mention here on the forums I have done more then once for many years. The same goes with my comments on automotive history - all is what I have read in period material, or heard in person not 2nd hand from fist person experience. Spraying paint on when with a decent grade air brush even with a larger tip may take some time to get enough coats on but it will come as close to what the factory or coach builder applied when the vehicle was new. Seems a lot of answers or advice is 'theory' as to what will work -  RE the toxic painting - what do restoration shops, local auto body shops etc do? 

[64avanti]

11 hours ago, Walt G said:

I can appreciate all the advice and everyone wanting to help, but will ask the question ( not trying to offend anyone) is this from first hand , hands on experience? Have you actually done what you are suggesting is the right way to do something? Anything I mention here on the forums I have done more then once for many years. The same goes with my comments on automotive history - all is what I have read in period material, or heard in person not 2nd hand from fist person experience. Spraying paint on when with a decent grade air brush even with a larger tip may take some time to get enough coats on but it will come as close to what the factory or coach builder applied when the vehicle was new. Seems a lot of answers or advice is 'theory' as to what will work -  RE the toxic painting - what do restoration shops, local auto body shops etc do? 

In my case, I have been spraying for 40 years. Mostly furniture finishing, but there is little difference in the required tools and application techniques.

 

I have sprayed just about everything imaginable, including shellac, varnish, nitrocellulose lacquer, water borne finishes, acrylics, epoxies, urethanes, and pre- and post- acid catalyzed clears and pigmented finishes. I enjoy experimenting with different finishes and finishing techniques, so I keep an open mind about these things.

 

My spray gun has evolved from an early HVLP turbine unit, to standard cup guns and pressure pots, to the latest gravity feed and pressure guns.

 

Safety equipment has always been my top priority, as all of these finishes are toxic. I've had a spray booth for years, and always wear a proper respirator when mixing, spraying, and any fume exposure. Nitrile gloves are a must, and I do wear a full body tyvek jumpsuit and cotton face/hair covering when spraying the more toxic paints.

 

I have sprayed only one vehicle, my 1951 Ford F1. SPI epoxy primer, 2K high build primer, and black single stage Urethane. I have painted furniture with BC/CC, and have switched to SPI Urethane Clear for furniture requiring durability.

 

And I have also sprayed parts of my truck outside in the driveway. Many amateur painters have done complete paint jobs in their garage, so it can be done safely.

 

So while I'm certainly no expert, I do have a great deal of experience.

Edited June 24, 2022 by 64avanti (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

Prior to the car I'm working on, the last time I shot a car in lacquer was in 1992 and before that 1974. In 1974 I shot my 65 Sea Blue Beetle,

http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photogallery/new format 834/images/img_0138_edited_1.jpg

The Beetle was done in the usual way of shooting acrylic lacquer cars I had done in the past. This means shooting a couple of coats and then when I could get some free time like a week or two, wet sanding and another couple of coats and so on until the desired coats is reached. In 1992 I decided to shoot my 69 Pontiac LeMans. Because I'm the original owner and the miles were so low a body-off was a waste of time however the front clip was removed and the deck lid too. This new color was PPG black, and I would shoot the car over several months (like I did the beetle). When the car was finally ready for paint, I had the hood and deck lid on easels and painted them first for their first coats. The next day I wet sanded them, tacked them off and hit them again and the proceeded to go around and shoot the rest of the car. When I got back to the hood and decklid the paint on them had shriveled up like crinkle paint!😬. My neighbor across the street was a PPG rep. so I asked Jeff what's going on. Didn't you read the container instructions??? NO! I've been painting cars in lacquer for a donkey's age! Why would I want to read the label? Turned out with this new lacquer (1992) you will do the first coat and keep going round and round until the desired amount of coats are put down. So I had to re-strip and start over again!

  http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photogallery/new format 937/images/p1020752.jpg   

[sowesellit]

its hard to get an industrial finish out of a spray can 

[nick8086]

I still need to get rid of my stuff..

[SC38dls]

To say rattle can paint is bad or you can’t get a good finish or it won’t match depends on a number of factors. You all that have a lot of experience seem to be comparing it to what you can do with a lot of good if not professional equipment. I for one could not afford that expense for a one time repair to a driver quality car. I tried to find a local professional shop that would work on the car and could not, including the five shops Hagerty insurance recommended for the repair. Nobody in the area (within about a 30 mile distance and one recommended shop 75 miles away) would work on antique cars anymore or were out of business due to the pandemic. By going to the correct type paint shop, getting matching color and a good auto paint loaded into spray cans, I solved the problem of quality product and cost. Then it was up to me to do the work properly to get the results I wanted. Thanks to many forum members help, I obtained better than hoped for results. The bonus was my doing the repairs saved about $6 grand of the insurance settlement and I learned a lot and I met a lot of new forum friends. A super bonus was my wife was extremely happy to have a bunch of extra spending cash. So to someone like myself that loves old cars and is not a professional painter, rattle cans are a great inexpensive invention. You just have to be willing to do the work to make the job they do, which is just getting the paint on the car, to look right. 
dave s 

Edited June 24, 2022 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[Walt G]

64Avanti - thank you for your comments! the mention of proper masks, covering etc is so very important. It is often not taken into consideration because the person doing the job thinks " I am only doing this for a short while" . Any paint fumes etc can affect your respiratory system . WEAR A MASK , and a proper one not just a dust mask . Gloves etc as you mention as well. It is worth the time to do the job properly but you also want to be around for decades afterwards to savor the results of you time and effort.

[Restorer32]

Once we had a show car that we painted base/clear at a show and some older gentleman walking around the show with his Son/Grandson remarked "Now that is what a good lacquer paint job looks like".  The final finish has more to do with how the paint is applied and how it is cut and buffed than what kind of paint it is.  I too miss lacquer but IMO modern paint systems are far superior to older systems.  Our PPG rep, who is here every week, tells us lacquer tints are no longer available.

[Eldovert]

Just a FYI, 2 part epoxy primers and paints are being made in spray cans..SprayMax is one supplier.

Cheers,Pat

[TTR]

All these comments about “Lacquer”, but no mention who’s referring to acrylic and who nitrocellulose ?

Having personally painted with all from nitrocellulose to water based base coat/clear coat materials of various brands + variety of spray can paint during past 40+ years, I think I say that they all have their attributes and flaws.

 

Just in past few weeks among variety of other, mostly mechanical, projects I did a small (about 8” x 8”) dent repair, requiring metal straightening/shaping, heat shrinking, prep and custom blend/color-match paint on a 50+ y.o. Italian sports car (yeah, "that" brand) painted (according to the current owner) to its current color (yeah, "that" color)  +/- 20 years ago in Germany and has held up quite nicely.

While the color-match came out quite accurately, the most difficult part, as always with spot painting, was to match the texture, especially if you’re not going to color-sand, buff and polish the entire car.

And no matter how hard I tried, unfortunately my texture came out slightly smoother than rest of the car, but fortunately it’s in the area that’ll help hide the difference and I doubt many would ever be able to find it, even if they spent hours next to the car looking for it.

Edited June 27, 2022 by TTR (see edit history)