1916 D-45 BUICK START-UP

[Terry Wiegand]

We put about 10 miles on the car late this afternoon.  It ran beautifully with not a hint of a problem from the vacuum tank.  I am being very cautiously optimistic, but I think the problem has been fixed.  The Red Flag Tour is going to be the proof as they say.   It was only 101 degrees here yesterday and we just didn't want to get out in the heat.  We are heading for Southeast Iowa late tomorrow night and we will report when we get back.

 

Terry and Barbara Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Members #947918

[Terry Wiegand]

Here we are on Sunday afternoon and the Red Flag Tour for 2022 is history.  I am here to report that the vacuum tank issue has been fixed for good.  The car ran absolutely perfect with no issues whatsoever.  I do have a couple of things that need to be dealt with, but nothing that cannot be straightened out rather easily.  I still believe that there is an adjustment issue with the cone clutch.  I can shift the transmission from second gear into high gear with no problem at all.  The problem for me is going from low gear into second that really presents a problem.  Double clutching simply does not work - no way no how.  Shifting fast does not work.  I think that there is an adjustment issue at work here and I will get to the bottom of it in short order.  This was a really fun tour and as I said earlier the car ran great.  I can now change out the break-in oil and get my regular engine oil in place.  This was my very first experience of driving a car on an organized tour and we are ready to go again.  It is really a wonderful thing to have an automobile that is dependable and won't leave you waiting for the 'trouble trailer'.  I do have one comment to offer about the tour.  One person was complaining, and several folks heard this, that the vehicles were not being driven fast enough.  The person thought that we should be traveling at 35 to 40 miles per hour.  Our car runs just fine at 25 to 30 miles per hour.  This thought should be kept in mind - these vehicles only have two wheel brakes and the reaction times of the older drivers should not be pushed to an uncomfortable limit.  During the course of my putting this Buick back together and getting it back on the road I was really ragged on because I chose to use New Old Stock AC Titan Spark Plugs in the engine.  I was told that these old plugs would foul out and not work properly because they were not of the proper heat range and on and on and on.  There is right at 400+ miles on the rebuilt engine with the same set of plugs and things have not missed a beat since the original start up.  The spark plugs that are in this engine were correct for what was in the engine when it left Flint.  I guess you know what I am going to do.  If it ain't broke don't go tryin' to fix it.  I am all for keeping things as original as possible.  I am going to start a Red Flag Tour thread and post some of the photos that we took.  We will hope that anyone who was on the tour and took photos will feel free to post any photos that they took.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[edinmass]

Congratulations on a trouble free tour. 👍

[95Cardinal]

Congratulations, Terry!

I'm happy to hear that the tour was uneventful.

 

Regarding the low to intermediate shift difficulties; mine is VERY reluctant to shift into "2nd" gear if I don't shift at a very low speed.

I was taught to shift this car out of low gear as soon as the car is rolling, and to make the shift without rushing the gear change at all.

 

Double clutch and be patient.

 

When I shift it that way, it literally slips into gear as the revs match up. If I try to rush the shift, or try to make the low to intermediate shift at any speed above about 5 miles per hour, it is much more difficult to accomplish a silent, smooth shift.

 

Might be worth a try.

[Terry Wiegand]

Thanks Joe,

Others have suggested pretty much the same thing.  I'll try just about anything to get a smooth shift from low to second.  After having the clutch cone relined it is a whole new ball game with the way that the car is driven.  What worked before has been thrown right out the window.  Thanks for the kind words about the car.  The tour was great and was just what this car needed to help get it 'settled in' as they say.  By the time we were ready to put it in the trailer Saturday I really felt like the car was starting to loosen up a bit and really run and drive like it is supposed to.  That engine never missed a lick and ran so smooth for the whole tour.  We're ready to go again next year.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[redbaron1930]

Terry;

  FYI, on my '16 the shift from 1st to 2nd is the most finicky. I agree in the statement shift it soon after it starts rolling, but you need to let the engine slow down. If you try to shift it up around 10 MPH you will have to tickle the gas pedal to get it to go into gear, tricky but doable. Shifting it at slow speed is the best option.

 

             Andy

[Gary W]

Terry..  to down shift, you have to "goose" the accelerator slightly between 3rd and 2nd to match the engine speed and the gear speed.  After a little practice, the move becomes very easy to accomplish.

 

Whenever I downshift from 3rd to 2nd (whether a non-synchro Model "A" or my Buick), I've found that slightly "goosing" the accelerator between gears really helps the downshift slide easier.

The quick increase in engine RPM's seems to help the gears mesh much easier.

 

Clutch in, slide gearshift out of third, release clutch, quick "goose" the accelerator, clutch in, slide up into second, on your way

 

I have a hill by my house and this is a daily event so I have mastered this maneuver.  

 

Maybe it'll help to try it.

 

Gary

[Bloo]

I think what some might be missing here is that this is an early nickel (almost brass) era car and probably has some super thick goo for lubricant in the transmission.

 

The 3-2 downshift has been mentioned, and how to do it (although Terry was talking about a 1-2 upshift, I'll get to that). When the clutch pedal is down, there are 3 spinning things. 1) The engine 2) The wheels, rear axle, driveshaft, output shaft of the transmission etc. and 3) The clutch cone (clutch disc in a newer car), the input shaft, the countershaft, and the input gears.

 

Number 3 is the interesting part. If we want a gear to just "go in", it has to be spinning the right speed. This is why we double clutch on a 3-2 downshift. The gears (and the clutch cone, and all the stuff in number 3 which are connected to them) need to be spinning faster than they were in high once you are in second gear. They are spinning slower though, and getting even slower by the millisecond due to oil drag. So, you take it out of gear, let the clutch out, goose the engine, and that zings number 3 up to a higher speed. Then you clutch it again, and if you timed things right, the number 3 parts will be going the correct speed for second gear to slide right in when you shift.

 

In newer cars, we often have to wait a little on an upshift. This is because the number 3 parts need to be going slower when we shift into a higher gear. More modern gear lube might not drag the speed down very fast. People notice this at stoplights too, waiting to shift into first. Some thick gloppy brass-era gear lube might drag things a lot faster. I have heard that stuff compared to modern ISO 1500.

 

My 1913 Studebaker for instance has some heavy glop in it mixed from a recipe published in the Horseless Carriage Gazette back in the late 70s. It needs to be almost speed shifted from first to second. I suspect this is because the thick oil is dragging everything in number 3 down a little too fast. If you aren't fast enough, it won't go in. This is opposite of the behavior you would expect from a more modern Studebaker (or Buick) where you might have to wait for the number 3 parts to spin down.

 

If the oil is really too thick, the number 3 stuff might be spinning down so fast you will never get it in without grinding.

 

What kind of gear lube is in this 1916 Buick? What was recommended?

 

I have found that even in cases where you know what was recommended it is very hard to figure out what the characteristics were. The Studebaker wants "non-fluid" oil. That's obvious right? Some glop about like steering box lube. almost liquid, but not quite. Obvious that is until you research it a little and find out in that era Non-Fluid was the name of an oil company and a brand of oil, not a type of oil, and Studebaker haven't told you which non-fluid oil. They have said the equivalent of "use Quaker State oil".

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Morgan Wright]

11 minutes ago, Bloo said:

 

What kind of gear lube is in this 1916 Buick? What was recommended?

 

The owner's manual says steam oil. The modern equivalent is 600W which actually says steam oil right on the bottle.

 

Steam oil is what they use in steam locomotive engines which operate at higher temperatures than gasoline engines (well above the boiling point of water).

[DonMicheletti]

Steam cylinder oil really is sticky goo at room temperature. And it really sticks to EVERYTHING  and doesnt run off.

Originally it had tallow in it. I doubt that is the case today

[Morgan Wright]

Marvel Mystery Oil was 1% lard until recently.

 

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/15/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20020916X01610&ntsbno=NYC02LA181&akey=1

[Larry Schramm]

2 hours ago, Morgan Wright said:

Marvel Mystery Oil was 1% lard until recently.

 

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/15/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20020916X01610&ntsbno=NYC02LA181&akey=1

 

That was an interesting read.

[Terry Wiegand]

I'm going along with Larry on this one.  First time I've ever heard this.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[DonMicheletti]

Just dont fly your car

[Terry Harper]

Steam cylinder oil (aka cylinder oil) is fantastic stuff. It will stick to just about anything and is made for high temps. You can still buy it by the 5 gallon bucket. (Mobil 600W, $295.87 on Amazon) Its not that unusual to pull a steam engine apart and find the bores rust free in spite of years of collecting water. As specified by the manufacturer we use it in the differentials of the Lombard tractors at the museum and also in the transmissions. On a cold day, when we are letting it idle to warm up and let out the clutch in neutral it really bogs down until things get spinning. On the other hand when you push in the clutch to shift that thick oil (even when warm) makes shifting much easier. It also reduces leaks since it tends to ooze rather than run out.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[Brian_Heil]

Steam Cylinder oil is lard based

 

It is necessary since in a steam engine this is how the cylinders are lubricated, steam dissolves it and transfers it. 
 

Back in the day, it’s all there was for a heavy lubricant 

 

Why anyone would use it today other than in a steam engine is due to lack of reading and investigation. 
 

I might also add it supports bacterial growth when used in an axle or transmission and over time stinks like rotten meat. 

[Terry Harper]

1 hour ago, Brian_Heil said:

Steam Cylinder oil is lard based

 

It is necessary since in a steam engine this is how the cylinders are lubricated, steam dissolves it and transfers it. 
 

Back in the day, it’s all there was for a heavy lubricant 

 

Why anyone would use it today other than in a steam engine is due to lack of reading and investigation. 
 

I might also add it supports bacterial growth when used in an axle or transmission and over time stinks like rotten meat. 

 

Actually, the early cylinder oils until the late 1850's were tallow based. Beef tallow to be exact. Which is not lard - lard is rendered from pig fat. While an excellent lubricant in a high temp environment it would form corrosive acids which of course attacked the metal. After the late 1850's cylinder oil was mineral based. However, the early mineral based cylinder oils did not mix well with water which in a steam cylinder is a vital property since steam was the medium used to distribute it to the valves and cylinders and it had to stick to the wet cylinder walls, valve slides, etc. The solution was the development of a compound oil which is mineral based but has a small amount of refined tallow (without the acids) added.

 

Modern cylinder oils are still mineral based and still include refined tallow but they also include stabilizers since the oil in a gear box stays in the gearbox a long time as opposed to a steam engine that is a total loss system. In fact even today drive systems, gears etc. that are operating in a wet environment often use cylinder oil which will "stick" tenaciously to wet surfaces and has excellent lubricating properties. Most so called modern heavy gear lubricants are not much more than re-branded cylinder oil with perhaps a few minor chemistry tweaks added here or there.

 

Since the transmissions and differentials on the tractors and the compensator gear on the steamer we have at the museum hold gallons worth of the stuff (Our 1928 Lombard Model T dump truck requires 5 gallons of it!) you would think, given what you have stated, that they would stink horribly but they do not. Of other note, steam cylinder oil typically scores a 1A on the copper test which is excellent for the yellow metal bits we often find in old transmissions and differentials.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[Hubert_25-25]

Terry W, 

    Now that you are up and running.  I had the same issue with my 1925 Buick.  I can tell you that for the transmission, I am not a fan of 600W.  It is OK in the rear axle and steering box.  That is what I started with and I will not go back to it for the transmission.  The Ford Model A group use a mixture of 60% Lucas 80/90 gear oil, and 40% Lucas HD Stabilizer.  It is available from Walmarts.  It is also close to Snyders M-533, which I think is also a better oil than 600W.  My suggestion.  Draining and refilling the transmission is cheap, quick, and easy.  I think you will be surprised at the difference a more modern lubricant will make to your gear changing.  You can always go back to 600W if you think it works better for you.

My second note is also that some transmissions do shift differently when cold vs when warmed up.  Sometimes I avoid 1st to 2nd gear shifts when cold.   I either shift 1st to 3rd, or I start in 2nd, until the transmission is warm.  Once warmed up the shifting is fine.   There is a lot of driver finesse that you just have to learn, but the lubricant choices available today are far superior to the limits of what was available in the 20's.   So glad to hear that you are enjoying your ride.  

Hugh      

[Morgan Wright]

Do you like fried grits or instant grits?

 

How do you like 'em, al dente?

 

I cook 'em in Marvel Mystery Oil now that the mystery is out.

[1967 - 1997 Riviera]

On 9/28/2022 at 9:25 PM, Terry Harper said:

 

Actually, the early cylinder oils until the late 1850's were tallow based. Beef tallow to be exact. Which is not lard - lard is rendered from pig fat. While an excellent lubricant in a high temp environment it would form corrosive acids which of course attacked the metal. After the late 1850's cylinder oil was mineral based. However, the early mineral based cylinder oils did not mix well with water which in a steam cylinder is a vital property since steam was the medium used to distribute it to the valves and cylinders and it had to stick to the wet cylinder walls, valve slides, etc. The solution was the development of a compound oil which is mineral based but has a small amount of refined tallow (without the acids) added.

 

Modern cylinder oils are still mineral based and still include refined tallow but they also include stabilizers since the oil in a gear box stays in the gearbox a long time as opposed to a steam engine that is a total loss system. In fact even today drive systems, gears etc. that are operating in a wet environment often use cylinder oil which will "stick" tenaciously to wet surfaces and has excellent lubricating properties. Most so called modern heavy gear lubricants are not much more than re-branded cylinder oil with perhaps a few minor chemistry tweaks added here or there.

 

Since the transmissions and differentials on the tractors and the compensator gear on the steamer we have at the museum hold gallons worth of the stuff (Our 1928 Lombard Model T dump truck requires 5 gallons of it!) you would think, given what you have stated, that they would stink horribly but they do not. Of other note, steam cylinder oil typically scores a 1A on the copper test which is excellent for the yellow metal bits we often find in old transmissions and differentials.

 

 

 

If you want to really experience a foul-smelling lubricant, find someone who owns a last generation (1996-99) Riviera who is in the process of changing-out the supercharger lubricating oil after some extended running time without a change. It smells so bad, like rotting hog flesh, that I wonder if it is also lard or tallow based, and turns rancid over time. You wouldn't want to get it on you under any circumstance. I know from experience.

 

 

[Terry Wiegand]

I got the break-in oil drained out of the engine yesterday afternoon.  The folks at Abrahams Machine had advised me to run this oil for at least 200 miles.  After we got back from the Red Flag Tour there were 366 miles on the clock and this was a great time to change things out.  I am running 20w50 Havoline as my oil of choice.  Since there is a little bit of the 30w break-in oil left in the dipper troughs I am thinking that I will run this new oil for about 200 miles and give it another oil change so that it can be good for quite a while.  The car ran absolutely wonderful on the tour and I can really feel that it is loosening up a bit as it is being driven.  I had really forgotten how much fun the car is to drive until we got it back on the road.  On the last day of the tour when we went from New London to Brighton, after we had lunch, all of the tour participants were presented with this really nice medallion.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[edinmass]

11 minutes ago, Terry Wiegand said:

 I had really forgotten how much fun the car is to drive until we got it back on the road. 

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

Too many people forget the joy of driving an early car. And way too many never get the project finished and it just gets passed on to someone else. You got to set goals and deadlines to get cars back on the road. One great way is posting your adventure here to keep accountable to yourself. It’s works great for me.

[Lahti35]

On 10/8/2022 at 12:50 PM, Terry Wiegand said:

The car ran absolutely wonderful on the tour and I can really feel that it is loosening up a bit as it is being driven.  I had really forgotten how much fun the car is to drive until we got it back on the road.  

Fantastic! Enjoy those miles of smiles🙂🙂🙂