Early 6 cyl. Delco Distributor Cap Reproduction

[Peter R.]

After successfully reproducing an early 4 cyl. Delco distributor cap (Delco # 12281) we decided to do another early Delco cap.

 

We're thinking about reroducing some early 6 cyl. Delco "Twist'n'Lock" caps as used on the following cars:

 

Delco # 11249

1915 Auburn 6-40, 1915 Moon 6-40

1913 Cole 8-13-60

1914 Cole 9-14-6

1915 Cole Sensible & Little Six

1915-16 Cole Big Six

1913-15 Hudson 6-54

1914-15 Hudson 6-40

1915 Jackson 48

1914 Moon 6-50

1913 Oakland 6-60

1914 Oakland 48, 62
1915 Oakland 6-49
1913 Oldsmobile 53

1914 Oldsmobile 6-54
1915 Oldsmobile 6-55
1915 Paterson 6-48, 1915 Westcott U-50

 

Delco # 11839

1916 Apperson

1917-19 Davis H, I, K (Cont. 7-W)

1918 Geronimo 6-A, 45

1921 Geronimo (Beaver L.C. Eng.)

1917 Hudson H Super Six

1918 Hudson J  Super Six

1919 Hudson M Super Six

1919 Kankakee (Cont. 7-N)

1917 Liberty Model 10-B (Cont. 7-K)

1917-19 Meteor 75, 80 (Cont. 7-N)

1917 Michigan Hearse "Big Six"

1917-19 Michigan Hearse "Light Six"
1917-18 Moon 6-43

1917-19 Moon 6-66

1918 Moon 6-36

1919 Moon

1917 Nash 671

1919-20 Noma
1917 Oakland 34

1917 Oakland 32-B (Northway 107)

1916 Paterson 6-42

1917-19 Paterson 6-45, 6-45R

1920 Paterson 6-46R

1916 Pilot

1917-20 Pilot 6-45 (Teeter Hartley)
1917-19 Premier 6-B, 6-C, 6-D

1920 Premier 6-D

1917 Premier 6-B

1917-18 Riddle 19

1917-19 Sayers & Scovill

1919-20 Sayers & Scovill B, P,

1920 Sayers & Scovill G, P

1917 Stephens 60, 65

1918-19 Stephens 70, 75

1917-18 Westcott

1919 Westcott A-38

 

Delco # 11918

1916 Packard Twin Six (1st Series) RH cap

 

Delco # 11919

1916 Packard Twin Six (1st Series) LH cap

 

Delco # 12214

1914-15 Ahrens Fox
1916-18 Ahrens Fox M, L1 and up

 

Delco # 13853

1917 Austin (V12)

1918 Buick E-44, E-45, E-49

1919-20 Buick 
1916-17 Buick D-44 & D-45

1920-21 Case Model V

1923 Case Model W & Y

1920 Consolidated Ship Corp.

1918-19 Davis J

1917 Haynes 40R & 41 (V12)

1918-20 Jordan C

1917 Kissel (V12)

1917-18 Meteor (V12)

1919-20 Meteor (Cont. 9-N)

1918-19 Michigan Hearse "Big Six"

1920 Moon 6-68

1917-19 National (V12)

1918-19 National

1916-17 Pathfinder 1-B, 3-A (V12)

1918-19 Riddle 19

1918-19 Sayers & Scovill

1919-20 Sayers & Scovill D, E, L

1919-21 Seagrave F-6

1918-19 Van Blerck

1918-19 Westcott 18-A

1919-20 Westcott A-48

1920-21 Westcott G-38, G-48

1922 Westcott C-48, D-48, 12-X

 

Any comments appreciated.

 

 

 

[1912Staver]

Looks great Peter. What sort of an expected price ? I have a spare cap for my 6 -45 Buick, but have found the rotors to be quite hard to find.. Also the little screw on nuts for the HT wires.

[Peter R.]

We could first manufacture a mold for the "Twist'n'Lock" type cap. After pressing a few hundred caps we could modify the mold so we can also do some of the later clip type caps:

 

Delco # 14320

Detroit Marine Applications

1922 Fergus

1922 Leach Model 999

1923 Locomobile Series 8 (6 & 12 Volt)

1920-22 Marmon 34-B

1919-20 Pierce Arrow B-6, C-6
1921-23 Pierce Arrow Series 32

1922 Pierce-Arrow 33

1923 Tarkington A-1
1921-22 Winton

 

Delco # 14322

1922-25 Ahrens Fox M, N, J, P Eng.

1921-22 Buick

1925 Hall-Scott Special

1925-26 Hall-Scott LM (12 Volt) (Marine)

1920-22 Jordan F

1920 Kankakee

1920-21 Leach A, B

1920-22 Meteor

1921-22 Miller

1920-21 Moon 6-68

1920-22 National

1921 Riddle 22

1920-21 Sayers & Scovill F, AL

1922 Sayers & Scovill G

1922 Seagrave F-6

1924 Seagrave F

 

Delco # 14382

1922 Bay State Model 1

1922-23 Case

1924 Consolidated Ship Corp.

1920-21 Davis

1922 Davis 61-67

1920-22 Elcar

1920-22 Hanson 54

1922 Hanson 60

1919-20 Hudson Model O Super Six
1920 Hudson O (Export)
1921 Hudson O Super Six

1922 Hudson Super Six

1922-25 Hudson (Export)

1920 Jordan M

1921-22 Jordan MX

1922 Jordan (Cont. 7-R)

1922 Merit B, C (Cont 7-R)

1920-21 Michigan Hearse

1920-22 Noma

1920-22 Paterson 6-47

1923 Paterson (7-R)

1920-21 Sayers & Scovill

1924 Stutz Fire Engine
 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Peter R. (see edit history)

[Peter R.]

....and finally modify the mold again to press some Delco # 15436 caps:

 

Delco # 15436

Aero (Marine Application)

1922 Biederman Speed Wagon

1923 Biederman (Cont. 6-T)

1924 Biederman

1923 Case Model W (Cont. 6-T)

1924 Case Y

1924 Crawford

1924 Fageol Bus (Hall-Scott)

1925 Hall-Scott Special

1923 H.C.S.  Series 4 MDC, Model 6

1924 Kimball Model Y

1923-25 Marmon

1924 McFarlan

1925 McFarlan Light Six (Wisconsin Y)

1923 Meteor

1924-25 Meteor 200-217
1926 Meteor (Cont. 6-J)

1923 Miller

1925 Moller "Big Dagmer"

1920-23 Moon

1922-24 Nash, 1925 Hudson (Export)

1922 Northway Motors

1922-26 Packard Six

1923 Parker

1925-27 Pierce-Arrow 80

1928 Pierce-Arrow 81

1928-29 Pierce-Arrow FA

1922 Riddle 25

1923-24 Riddle

1922 Sayers & Scovill H

1923 Sayers & Scovill (6-T)

1923-25 Sayers & Scovill

1920 Westcott B-38, G-38

1922 Westcott C-38, A-44

1923 Westcott B-44

Wilcox Trux

1925-27 Wills St. Claire
1926 Wills St. Claire

1922-23 Winton
 

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Peter R. (see edit history)

[Peter R.]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

What sort of an expected price ? I have a spare cap for my 6 -45 Buick, but have found the rotors to be quite hard to find.. Also the little screw on nuts for the HT wires.

Greg, the price depends on how many caps we can sell. Something between $300 and $500 I would guess (the caps are made of Bakelite and the mold is expensive). We can certainly do the rotors too and they would be cheaper. Since we already did the early 4 cyl. caps we are also looking into reproducing the early Delco Buick (1914-15) and Cadillac (1911-1914) etc. rotors and terminal nuts.

 

Peter

 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Peter R. (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Not cheap, but if you need a new cap and have not been able to find a N.O.S. or decent original one at least it would be available. Thanks !

[Peter R.]

As I said, a quality repro out of Bakelite involves quite an effort and therefore is not cheap.

I paid 700 bucks for the last early NOS Cadillac cap that I found 20 years ago....we used it as a sample for our repro.

 

 

https://roland-merz-katalog.de/media/video/65/2e/38/Verteilerkappe-RM-15-1040-final.mp4?autoplay=1

Edited June 2, 2022 by Peter R. (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

I understand perfectly. A pricy part to make for sure !! Thanks for making these available!

 That's a great video. With a set up like that you could just as easily produce a few thousand as a few dozen.  

Edited June 2, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Peter R.]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

With a set up like that you could just as easily produce a few thousand as a few dozen.  

That‘s right. We can virtually do any cap. The question is how many are needed. The number makes the price. The currency exchange rate is another issue. It is quite bad at the moment. Right now it‘s a good time to buy in the US….not to sell.

[Peter R.]

3 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Not cheap, but if you need a new cap and have not been able to find a N.O.S. or decent original one at least it would be available. Thanks !

One thing to keep in mind is that the contacts of original Delco slider caps are made of steel. Those caps are old and had been sitting on the shelf for many decades. If not been in dry storage the contacts are susceptible to corrode. As a result the caps can crack. Even a NOS cap can have fine hairline cracks. As long as the cap is cold it performs well but as soon as it warmed up the engine starts to misfire. I‘ve seen this several times. Things usually start with people standing in my workshop with a carburetor in their hands, blaming it for being the bad guy. Later the problem turns out to be the Delco cap.

However, that‘s why we furnish our caps with brass contacts.

[nickelroadster]

Somebody over here also makes reproductions of the four cylinder caps.  It looks like you can be competitive though.   How do you do the Bakelite process?

[1939_Buick]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite

[Mark Gregush]

Very nice! Could you add a link for the information on the 4 cylinder caps? I looked at your post, but there were pages of them. 

[Mark Shaw]

Peter,

     I suggest you do extensive marketing research via car club rosters that list owners vehicles.  This way you can determine the numbers of surviving vehicles that take the parts you are reproducing.  You can then produce parts in closer propotion to the number of potential buyers; which should also help determine prices according to rarity. 

[nickelroadster]

The guy who does the Delco four cylinder caps is Tom VanMeeteren in Nebraska  Ph. 402 359 5762 or tsvanmeet@gmail .co,.

[Bob McAnlis]

Terry

you speak for yourself.  I’ll speak for myself.    I for one would be interested in having a functional replacement without cyl numbers.    If it allows the cap to be used on a variety of cars using Delco systems with different firing orders, all the better.     It would certainly be great if the mold allowed inserting different numbers for different car applications, but then you increase mold cost significantly and also inventory cost.     It would be different if the intended market was 100k units.   But it’s probably a few hundred units.  Universality is more practical on my mind.  

[edinmass]

I'm grateful someone is willing to do a project today. Having done a hundred or more over the years, I can assure you he isn't getting rich on it and in fact is probably running in the red regardless of how many he sells......been there, done that. Making a cap that works, in proper material, and available is what is important. Numbering them is a nice detail........but I bet only one in fifty people would pay the preumuim for the numbers. Let's face it...........most of the cars that they fit are in the lower range of value. Duesenberg caps are available but in modern materials and in an "off" color. Since it's that or nothing.....they live with the reasonable reproduction.......on tours and the snowfield at Pebble. Caps look great......and it's an impressive project. Bravo!

Edited June 8, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Mefistofele]

On 6/2/2022 at 7:09 PM, Peter R. said:

As I said, a quality repro out of Bakelite involves quite an effort and therefore is not cheap.

I paid 700 bucks for the last early NOS Cadillac cap that I found 20 years ago....we used it as a sample for our repro.

 

 

https://roland-merz-katalog.de/media/video/65/2e/38/Verteilerkappe-RM-15-1040-final.mp4?autoplay=1

Hello Peter,

Do you can reproduce the distributor cap and rotor for the Hudson super six 1929? You can contact me by rsmobile74@ gmail.com

Thank you 

Roberto 

[JRA]

On 6/2/2022 at 2:09 PM, Peter R. said:

As I said, a quality repro out of Bakelite involves quite an effort and therefore is not cheap.

I paid 700 bucks for the last early NOS Cadillac cap that I found 20 years ago....we used it as a sample for our repro.

 

 

https://roland-merz-katalog.de/media/video/65/2e/38/Verteilerkappe-RM-15-1040-final.mp4?autoplay=1

Congratulations for your effort, Peter! Very nice job. Quite important part reproduction for us. It was very hard to find NOS distributor cap for my 1929 Marmon, I am glad it may be reproduced some day. Thanks.

[Peter R.]

On 6/4/2022 at 5:12 AM, nickelroadster said:

The guy who does the Delco four cylinder caps is Tom VanMeeteren in Nebraska  Ph. 402 359 5762 or tsvanmeet@gmail .co,.

I know Tom and I'm in contact with him. He will be the distributor of our cap in the US.

[Peter R.]

18 hours ago, JRA said:

Congratulations for your effort, Peter! Very nice job. Quite important part reproduction for us. It was very hard to find NOS distributor cap for my 1929 Marmon, I am glad it may be reproduced some day. Thanks.

The cap you are talking about has Delco-Remy (or Remy) P/N 813488. In fact these caps don't surface very often anymore. I still have a bunch of them and I'm sure Tom VanMeeteren has them too. There's also version with horizontal wire outlets that you could use instead.

However, we could certainly reproduce the cap in question in case there is a demand. 

[Peter R.]

Thanks for all your comments. We are starting to reproduce Delco # 13853 now.

 

 

[Larry Schramm]

Terry,

The caps are going to be about $500.00.  Talk to Tom V for more info.

 

Look here:

 

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Peter R.]

Terry,

 

I'm not trying to hide anything. It's simply too early to name a firm price. My rough guess would be somewhere between $300 and $500. The end price depends on many factors. The cost for a mold ranges between $10'000 and $40'000, depending on how complicated it will be. If you press caps with terminal post numbers on the side of the cap you will have to fabricate a mold with removable and exchangable terminal post number inserts because otherwise you won't be able to get the cap out of the mold once it is pressed. This alone will raise tooling cost remarkably. The mold has to be heated adequately, which means that you have to integrate heating elements in the mold at the right places. Contact inserts can slip out of place when pressing a cap with 80 tons of pressure. You can't just fabricate a mold and start pressing caps. There's lots of experience required. In the pressing trial stage you will have to press 10 to 50 caps and modify the mold in between until you finally get your first good cap. Besides tooling costs there are also labor and material costs as well as machining costs at the end. Another important factor is the number of caps that shall be pressed. As edinmass mentioned earlier in the post, we're not getting rich doing old car distributor caps. It's not about making money here, it's a passion. We're not selling numerous batches of 200 caps like one does in projects for newer cars.

Do you replace your distributor cap every time you service your old car after 5'000 miles of driving? I guess most people leave them on the car as long as they can and replace them when they break. And old cars are usually not driven daily so how much time will it take to drive an old car 5'000, 10'000, 15'000 or 20'000 miles? How many cars (drivers) that use a particular distributor cap are still out there? These are questions that I have to take into consideration when thinking about doing old car parts.

 

A press operator will be able to press 15 caps per hour. When operating two presses equipped with quadruple molds, he will be capable of doing 120 caps per hour. That will total up to 2'880 caps per day, when working three shifts. That's how they used to press caps and that's how you can make money pressing caps. When we reproduce old car caps we calculate with a total of 100 caps.

 

Delco and Remy merged to the Delco-Remy Division of GM on January 1st 1927. So the actual Delco era (with early Delco style products made in Dayton, OH) was before 1927. Between 1911 and 1926, Delco made about 80 different distributor caps. If you want to reproduce every single distributor cap Delco made, the tooling cost would total up to $1'200'000, when calculating with $15'000 average for one mold. If I'd be rich, I'd probably do it because it's a passion. If I'd be rich and just wanted to make more money, I would never do it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, the firing order on your Buick is 1-4-2-6-3-5, clock-wise when the distributor is viewed from top. The cap with this firing order would be Delco 13582. Now there's exactly the same cap with the same firing order but counterclock-wise. Why not pressing the caps without terminal numbers and engrave them after pressing? 

 

Most early aftermarket ignition parts manufacturer left away the terminal numbers (thus, to save money on tooling and because of "one-fits-many" practise). An exception was G.M.P, Co., they used terminal numbers. But they were located on the top of the cap, not on the side (that way you don't have to deal with inserts in the mold).

 

But the best is yet to come - Even Delco quit pressing the above two caps separately. Obviously one identical cap without teriminal numbers replaced the two caps from the mid 20's on....

 

Peter

  

 

[Peter R.]

Original Delco 6 cyl. „Twist‘n‘Lock“ cap WITH terminal post numbers, pressed February 1920.

 

[Peter R.]

Original Delco 6 cyl. „Twist‘n‘Lock“ cap WITHOUT terminal post numbers, pressed March 1925.

 

[edinmass]

As time marched on, the one cap fitting many applications was a common adaptation to save on inventory. Cadillac made no less than five different hubcaps for their 1930-1931 V-8 cars………each new version with less detail, cheaper manufacturing costs, and were “good enough”. The last version was made in 1940 when the cars were almost ten years old. Caps are”consumables” and while an exact replacement would be preferred……having access to new, correct items is a godsend today. Fewer and fewer projects are now in the pipeline. Soon there will be nothing available for reproduction parts on most pre war cars, just like back in the early days of the hobby. Economic reality of the car collector world. 

[Larry Schramm]

Peter,  Thanks for your work.

[Peter R.]

All threads are 5/16“ UNEF. Guess they just look bigger on the pictures.

MF 8 x 0.75 comes close but a 5/16“ UNEF nut would probably jam on a MF 8 x 0.75 post with a thread length of 3/16“ (MF 8 x 0.8 would work fine I guess). 
Yes, we are looking into the terminal nuts too. There are at least 7 different nuts to choose from.

[Rolling_Iron]

Hi Peter,

 

Do you happen to have any Deco 15436 Distributor caps for sale? If you do what would 2 cost shipped to Washington State USA?

 

Take care!

 

-Andrew

[Peter R.]

….and finally we started pressing a batch of 100 caps:
 

https://www.roland-merz.de/video/Delco 6-Zylinder Verteilerkappe.mp4

[Rusty_OToole]

This is the sort of thing that could be made on a 3d printer if the material was suitable. They are doing some remarkable things, if there is a heat proof plastic it would be possible to make practically anything.

[Rusty_OToole]

Why not just make the numbered caps, if they are not wanted the buyer can file them off.

[60ch]

I have read all of the posts and watched all of the videos. The history of how Bakelite was originally produced was outstanding. The story of the reproduction of bakelite distributer caps and the costs involved is amazing. That said, I believe that this was the most educational and interesting thread that I have followed. Thanks to all that took part in adding to this discussion. I believe that everybody learned something here, I sure did. 

Terry

[Dandy Dave]

On 7/5/2022 at 8:21 PM, Peter R. said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, the firing order on your Buick is 1-4-2-6-3-5, clock-wise when the distributor is viewed from top. The cap with this firing order would be Delco 13582. Now there's exactly the same cap with the same firing order but counterclock-wise. Why not pressing the caps without terminal numbers and engrave them after pressing? 

 

 

Peter

  

 

If you don't tell the cap the direction of rotation it won't mind if you wire it 1-5-3-6-2-4 or 1-4-2-6-3-5. One just needs to be smart enough to wire it in the correct rotation. I never pay much attention to the numbers on the cap anyway. I just find #1 and wire it in the direction of rotation from there. We are just thrilled that something is available that will work, and work correctly either way.  

Edited March 29, 2023 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Alan C.]

   This topic has been very interesting reading.  I have a handful of the attached caps, which are from a Lanchester 40, made 1919-1928.  They're either delco 14322 or 14382, I'm not sure which.  All have internal pressing date stamps ranging from 3/20  to 6/23, some have the numbers pressed next to the terminals (Clockwise 153624), others are blank and have been hand-engraved.  Unfortuantely, all are cracked or broken in one way or another!  If Peter is planning to make reproductions of these, he'd be my new best friend

   I suspect that there are quite a few low-volume early 20's models around the world that use these caps that aren't listed on the Delco brochures!

 

Alan

[Peter R.]

On 5/9/2023 at 11:22 AM, Alan C. said:

If Peter is planning to make reproductions of these, he'd be my new best friend

Alan, so it looks like I‘ll become your new best friend soon….🙂

[Alan C.]

That's fantastic news!  - I think it's fantastic that there are people out there willing to put in the effort to make these parts for such rare vehicles; I know exactly how much effort is involved in the tooling.    I certainly don't expect them to be cheap but if you could let me know a hint of a price, that would be great; I'll also have a shout around other Lanchester 40 owners (there aren't many!) to see if I can find any more interest.

 

Thanks again,

Alan

[zepher]

@Peter R. Thank you for reproducing various Delco caps in the correct material and with the correct attention to detail to make sure that they last for many years of service.

 

 

[Peter R.]

Alan, I didn‘t know Lanchester used Delco equipment. I thought they were equipped with Lucas products. Or maybe just the starter and generator was Lucas and the distributor was supplied by Delco-Remy LTD, London? European car manufacturers stuck to magneto ignition much longer than American car manufacturers did, so it seems obvious that European car electric equipment manufacturers were overburdened in saturating the demand for battery ignition. Therefore quite a number of European car brands used American battery ignition systems in the 1920‘s to the early 1930‘s.

I would be interesting to know the ID number of the distributor (for my data base). I don‘t have much info on electrical equipment for British cars of the 1920‘s because British cars made out less than 1% in our country back in the days. So there‘s a lack of info on early products of British equipment manufacturers such as BLIC, Brolt, Lucas (pre-1930), Miller, Rotax, S. Smith & Sons, C.A. Vandervell (CAV) etc. I‘ve never seen an application index. 
 

However, it‘s hard to come up with a price at this time. At the end the price largely depends on how many caps we can sell and if we can modify the existing mold or if we will have to fabricate a new one. I expect the production cost be be around $300 per cap if we can sell 100 ea (rough guess).

I have a bunch of NOS and NORS caps left in my inventory in case you need any (I just needed two for a Delco two spark distributor). The caps had also been used on a bunch of French cars with Continsouza distributors (license Delco).

 

Peter