Noises from the rear end ('64). Trying to narrow down what this might be.

[Hazdaz]

Had her on the road for the first time in months this past weekend, and a problem that I was having late last fall didn't magically fix itself (unfortunately) over the winter.

 

I am getting some clanking/clicking noises coming from, what I believe, is the rear end of the car.  In the fall I had my local mechanic throw it up onto his lift and he even test drove it a little and he couldn't figure it out.  It sounds like a loose exhaust with the muffler clanking, but when he had it up on the lift last year nothing looked loose. 

 

The sound is a cross between 3 things:  a loose exhaust clanking sound, the clicking one would hear from a failing CV joint, or a suspension spring binding up.  It don't think it is actually any of those things, but that's just what it sounds like. 

 

I'm trying to narrow down what this could be before I get it to a mechanic (unless I can fix it myself).  I emptied the trunk with some stuff I had, so I know its not coming from inside the trunk.  I also don't think it is engine or tranny related - the car actually drives fine.  Originally I was thinking it might the rear end diff, but my mechanic didn't think it was that when he checked it.

 

I know you guys have been around these cars for a long time, so wondering what you'd recommend I look at first.  It is hard diagnosing this because when it is stopped you don't hear anything.

[telriv]

Does it have a Posi rear?

 

Tom T.

[Jim Cannon]

Center driveshaft bearing?

 

 

[RIVNIK]

If it's the exhaust rattling it may not be detectable on a conventional lift, as the suspension & wheels will be hanging low(and one of those may be the offending part) You need to lift by the wheels to find where the contact is occurring. My rattle sounded similar to what you described. I was able to track it down by backing up onto floor ramps. However if it goes click,click,click like a CV joint then telriv & Jim are probably pointing you in the right direction.

[Hazdaz]

11 hours ago, telriv said:

Does it have a Posi rear?

 

Tom T.

Pardon my ignorance, but how can I check?  Jack up the rear and see if the rears spin together? 

[RivNut]

3 hours ago, Hazdaz said:

Pardon my ignorance, but how can I check?  Jack up the rear and see if the rears spin together? 

Or find a dirt road and nail it.  Are you familiar with the notorious 'Riviera rattle?" The two fuel lines will bang against each other. Do a search and see if it compares to your problem.

[60FlatTop]

I had a similar situation just prior to the BCA Nationals in Sandusky, Ohio. The best check for rear bearings is to raise the wheels off the ground and put the car in gear. Have someone hold the opposite wheel while accelerating. A bad outer axle bearing will make itself known with and impressive rattle when it spins unloaded..

[BulldogDriver]

Better make sure it’s not a posi rear before you go playing with it with the motor doing the turning. 
 

Just saying.

 

Ray

[EmTee]

Jack both rear wheels off the ground.  Turn one wheel by hand (e.g., forward direction).  If the other wheel turns in the same direction (i.e., 'forward') then it's a positraction differential.  If the other wheel turns in the opposite direction (i.e., 'reverse') it's an open differential.  If it is a posi rear the clutches can stick and make noises similar to what you describe (as Telriv noted above) - especially during turns.  I had a '77 Century with posi that made a loud clicking, clanking noise when turning.  The fix was to change the diff oil and add the GM limited-slip additive.

 

[Hazdaz]

Lots of great info.  This sounds like a weekend project.  Wish me luck!

[NC1968Riviera]

On 5/3/2022 at 12:58 PM, 60FlatTop said:

Have someone hold the opposite wheel while accelerating

This sounds like a VERY unhealthy thing to do!

[MY64RIVIERA]

On 5/2/2022 at 9:51 PM, Jim Cannon said:

Center driveshaft bearing?

 

 

This was my problem....center support/carrier bearing was bad.  

[60FlatTop]

17 hours ago, NC1968Riviera said:

This sounds like a VERY unhealthy thing to do!

Trust me. Sometimes I get paid $200 a day. But the shift differential makes it work.

 

[Hazdaz]

19 hours ago, MY64RIVIERA said:

This was my problem....center support/carrier bearing was bad.  

IF this ends up being my issue, how extensive was the work to fix it and how much of a cost was it?  Bring it to the mechanic time, or can it be done at home?

[Jim Cannon]

2 hours ago, Hazdaz said:

IF this ends up being my issue, how extensive was the work to fix it and how much of a cost was it?  Bring it to the mechanic time, or can it be done at home?

You have to pull the driveshaft. Not that hard to do, much easier if you have a lift. Unbolt driveshaft from pinion gear, unbolt carrier bearing support from the chassis, slide everything out toward the back of the car.

 

If only the bearing is bad, replace it. (NAPA used to have them, I don't know if they still do). If the rubber mount is bad, you get yours revulcanized or buy one on an exchange basis from a Buick parts specialty shop.

 

I'm pretty sure this is all in the shop manual. You will want to read up on it in the shop manual before you do it, or if you have your mechanic do it, have them read the shop manual. Putting everything back exactly as it came out is important. Mark all the pieces with dabs of paint.  Replace the shims under the carrier bearing support exactly as you find them.

 

 

[BulldogDriver]

New carrier bearing assemblies are available without having to rebuild yours. BestOfferCounts usually has them or look on eBay. I’d check the drive shaft throughly while its out and also look at the trans shaft seal. Hopefully the CV joints on your driveshaft are in good shape. Rebuild parts for them are scarce.

 

Ray

 

[Hazdaz]

My local mechanic had time to put the the Riv up on his lift finally. 

 

OK, first off, it doesn't have a posi rear end.  The brake lines running down the passenger side seem very well secured and I can't imagine they were clanking.  The 2nd part of the driveshaft has play going into the rear end, but according to my mechanic, it is actually pretty small amount of play.  The diff was full and all but one of the grease joints were greased up already. 

 

This is where he is thinking the issue might be coming from...  He is thinking that it might be the center driveshaft bearing, but before that gets changed out, he will get the center grease fitting behind the X frame and see if the noise goes away before any parts are replaced.

 

If it is indeed the center driveshaft bearing, then is about $125 a decent price on the part?:

 

https://bestoffercounts.com/product/buick-riviera-drive-shaft-support-bearing-1964-1965-1966-1967-1968-1969-1970/

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Had the same problem on my 65. The differential lube that EmTe mentions fixed mine, but i do have posi. 

[Jim Cannon]

11 hours ago, Hazdaz said:

My local mechanic had time to put the the Riv up on his lift finally. 

 

OK, first off, it doesn't have a posi rear end.  The brake lines running down the passenger side seem very well secured and I can't imagine they were clanking.  The 2nd part of the driveshaft has play going into the rear end, but according to my mechanic, it is actually pretty small amount of play.  The diff was full and all but one of the grease joints were greased up already. 

 

This is where he is thinking the issue might be coming from...  He is thinking that it might be the center driveshaft bearing, but before that gets changed out, he will get the center grease fitting behind the X frame and see if the noise goes away before any parts are replaced.

 

If it is indeed the center driveshaft bearing, then is about $125 a decent price on the part?:

 

https://bestoffercounts.com/product/buick-riviera-drive-shaft-support-bearing-1964-1965-1966-1967-1968-1969-1970/

 

Yes, this is it.

 

The grease fitting is a red herring. It's the center carrier bearing.

 

This is a very fair price for the center support piece and the bearing. I paid $80 to NAPA for just the bearing, no rubber support.

 

 

[Hazdaz]

11 hours ago, Jim Cannon said:

 

Yes, this is it.

 

The grease fitting is a red herring. It's the center carrier bearing.

 

This is a very fair price for the center support piece and the bearing. I paid $80 to NAPA for just the bearing, no rubber support.

 

 

Both my mechanic and myself are pretty sure it won't be the grease fitting, but it is a "free" thing to try out first, you know, before we start spending money on parts and disassembling the driveshaft.

 

It isn't fixed yet, but it sounds like a bunch of you guys were right in your diagnosis!  Thanks guys.  I'll keep the thread updated when this is finally fixed for anyone else who has similar sounds.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Hazdaz (see edit history)

[Hazdaz]

UPDATE:

 

So driveshaft is out!  The rubber housing looks pretty messed up on this bearing.  The bearing itself spins quite smoothly.  I hope that means this was the issue all along.

 

One question I have for you guys is the driveshaft keyed to the transmission?  I know many (all?) newer vehicles there is like a double spline that acts like a key to index the spline so it can go in only one way.  I took a quick look at the driveshaft on the Riv and I didn't notice any such keying.  I don't think I saw anything about the spline being keyed in the Buick repair manual either. 

 

I am going to guess that it isn't keyed unless you guys say otherwise.

 

I painted a mark so the two pieces of the driveshaft will go back together the same way since I know those are supposedly balanced together. 

 

Anyways, thanks for the help so far guys. 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Hazdaz (see edit history)

[RivNut]

If you’re referring to where the U-joint is attached to the transmission, the u-joint has internal splines and the output shaft coming out of the transmission has external splines.  The front part of the u-joint is called a slip joint.  It needs to be able to slide on the output shaft because as the axle moves up and down the distance between the rear axle pinion and the transmission changes.  If the u-joint could not slide in the transmission, binding and breakage would occur. No key.

[Hazdaz]

Rivnut, Yeah I got you on the sliding part, I just wasn't positive that the timing (rotation) of where the drive shaft would be important.  Sounds like it's not which makes it easier. 

 

I'm kind of stuck on getting that locknut off at this point.  I ordered a large adjustable wrench (looks like the nut is 1-7/8") to see if I can get that off.  Kind of a silly design where the locknut is fairly inaccessible as it is recessed in the housing.  Hopefully the adjustable wrench will fit. 

 

to be continues...

 

[1965rivgs]

  The part of the driveshaft that slides into the trans is called a yoke. The yoke does not index in any particular way except to simply line up the splines.

  When you take the front and rear driveshaft halves apart you want to pay attention to the "timing" between the halves. There is originally an alignment pin that looks similar to a safety pin but someone has already had your driveshaft apart so it may be missing.

  You can take the nut off with an air chisel or a hammer and hand held chisel. That is what someone has already done previously. The hammer/chisel method is back alley but works. Obviously it doesn't do much for the appearance of the nut.

Tom Mooney

Edited June 26, 2022 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[Hazdaz]

I actually got the lock nut off with a pair of channel lock-style plyers!  I didn't want to smack it with a hammer or chisel since, because as you saw, someone already had in the past.  

 

Got the new bearing and housing mostly on, but not positive it is seated all the way in.  There is about a 1/8" gap between the shield and the bearing housing.  I am pretty sure the gap with the old housing was more like 1/16" or less.  I took photos so I'll have to check.  

 

Ran out of daylight so done for the day.  

Edited June 26, 2022 by Hazdaz (see edit history)

[EmTee]

You may want to give the nut a couple of whacks with the hammer/chisel just to be sure it's secure.  I don't think I would rely on the pliers for tightening that nut...

[BulldogDriver]

Crest wrench that fits the nut will work. I made sure the wrench was seated all the way on the nut and let the center bearing spin with the wrench. Should also be a sleeve that will lock the nut in place. You would’ve had to bend the edge away from the nut to loosen it. Don't forget the shims under the support. Original ones would stay on the bolts and slide up into the cars frame as one. Might want to use new bolts, lock washers and flats.

 

Ray

[60FlatTop]

 

You know these guys too?

 

[Hazdaz]

So got everything put back together again. 

 

Apparently I was right last night when it came to installing the center bearing- it was bottomed out, it just didn't look like it was.  I ended up taking it apart and mic'ing the length of the step and threads (1.062").  The sheet metal cover is .062" thick.  The bearing itself is approximately .600" wide.  That means when installed there would be about .400" thread exposed.  When I reassembled everything again, I was just over .400" of thread length so I knew I was good.  That would have saved me a good hour messing around either that if I just had mic'ed the end of the shaft before I reassembled it.

 

Since I had everything out, I figured I might as well grease all the fittings.  Then I put everything back together.  The two parts of the prop shaft are definitely keyed properly (theres a double spline that only lets it go in one way, plus i marked them).  If someone is doing this job, chances are good that you'll have to pop the car in neutral to get everything aligned properly between installing the prop shaft into the transmission and the differential.  Just keep that in mind.  Screwed in the center support bearing with the included new screws.  I did not shim them as mentioned by BulldogDriver.  Went back together again reasonably quickly.

 

Took her out for a short test time... and I don't think I hear any difference! 😬

 

  I gotta take the girlfriend out to see if she notices any difference because my hearing isn't particularly great.  It doesn't shake and power comes on smooth, but I still hear a faint clanking sound.  This time I think I hear it when I'm coming to a stop but still moving.  It's not loud and there are random other 60 year old rattles and creaking and stuff that I hear that are making this tough to troubleshoot.  The positive is that I know the center bearing housing I removed was definitely ripped up, so even if it didn't need replacing immediately,  it was on it's way out.  

 

60FlatTop, that looks like my uncle Cleatus and his friend Dale.  🤪

[60FlatTop]

Dale must be the one with the carpenter's hammer. Upper body tone from sitting on a stool lifting aluminum. Cleatus would be the kitchen table pumper.

m thinking you never did get those axles spinning unloaded. As an alternative try rolling down the passenger side windows and driving past some guard rails at about 40 MPH. See if you get a little clickety noise, right axle bearing.

Your story still sounds like mine when I was getting ready for the Buick Nationals in Sandusky.

[EmTee]

4 hours ago, Hazdaz said:

Since I had everything out, I figured I might as well grease all the fittings. 

Good - that's what my friend's father did annually to grease the joints in his '67.

 

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

As an alternative try rolling down the passenger side windows and driving past some guard rails at about 40 MPH.

Yes, that'll help you identify any noises.  How do the axle bearings feel when you jack the wheel and turn them by hand?  Are they smooth?  Excessive play?

[Hazdaz]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

Dale must be the one with the carpenter's hammer. Upper body tone from sitting on a stool lifting aluminum. Cleatus would be the kitchen table pumper.

m thinking you never did get those axles spinning unloaded. As an alternative try rolling down the passenger side windows and driving past some guard rails at about 40 MPH. See if you get a little clickety noise, right axle bearing.

Your story still sounds like mine when I was getting ready for the Buick Nationals in Sandusky.

I still want to drive it around some more to see if I can pinpoint it better.  I've put in less than a dozen miles since it put it back together.  I also want to maybe record a video but the sound is so faint I'm not entirely sure if it will get picked up my the mic.

 

I'll try the 40 MPH test this week and see what I hear.

 

If it does end up being the axle bearing, how much of a pain is it to do on these cars??

 

I'm wondering if it is the U joint on the rear prop shaft.  One thing I noticed is that the yoke wasn't particularly easily to straighten out when I installed it onto the differential.  I didn't think much of it at the time because I was trying to just align it on the diff, but when I tried putting it straight, it would snap to an angle.  Thinking about it now, I'm pretty sure that isn't normal behavior for a U joint.  It should freely move in any direction.

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Hazdaz (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

My story went just like yours. I did replace all five u-joints before my friend narrowed it down to the axle bearing. That was 1981. The bearings felt OK just jiggling them. Spinning fast gets them to speak out.

[1965rivgs]

12 hours ago, Hazdaz said:

I still want to drive it around some more to see if I can pinpoint it better.  I've put in less than a dozen miles since it put it back together.  I also want to maybe record a video but the sound is so faint I'm not entirely sure if it will get picked up my the mic.

 

I'll try the 40 MPH test this week and see what I hear.

 

If it does end up being the axle bearing, how much of a pain is it to do on these cars??

 

I'm wondering if it is the U joint on the rear prop shaft.  One thing I noticed is that the yoke wasn't particularly easily to straighten out when I installed it onto the differential.  I didn't think much of it at the time because I was trying to just align it on the diff, but when I tried putting it straight, it would snap to an angle.  Thinking about it now, I'm pretty sure that isn't normal behavior for a U joint.  It should freely move in any direction.

 

  A CV joint will default or behave as you are describing, so no problem there.

  Tom

[Zimm63]

Rear axle bearings are not a horrible job, if you have a cutting torch, large press, and a good idea of what you are doing.   You will also need to source good quality bearings and the correct retainers.  

 

I did mine a couple years ago, and don't see any way to do it without the above equipment.  

[1965rivgs]

11 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

My story went just like yours. I did replace all five u-joints before my friend narrowed it down to the axle bearing. That was 1981. The bearings felt OK just jiggling them. Spinning fast gets them to speak out.

  A u-joint can often need replacement but still be tight when twisting it during inspection. As a fleet mechanic who has inspected and lubricated more heavy duty, multi piece drivelines than I care to remember, my inspection method extended to lubricating the U-joint and watching for trails or ribbons of rust in the grease as it exited the u-joint caps. If there is ANY sign of rust there is a 99% chance upon inspection one will find brinelling (sp?) of the u-joint cross even with all needle bearings still intact.

  When confronted with a "permanently" lubed u-joint which has no grease fitting, the only sure fire way to evaluate them, aside from a complete failure, is dissassembly and inspection.

  There are folks who recommend permanently lubed u-joints without grease fittings because the crosses are not drilled and therefore stronger, which is true, but IMHO this is only a consideration in extreme operation like a heavy duty truck or drag racing. Regarding a car that is typically driven, I would rather install a serviceable u-joint and have the inspection option mentioned above as compared to extra strength that goes unutilized.

  Tom