Electric vehicles, oil demand, internal combustion...a good read

[John348]

47 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

And.. same thing in Richmond, VA. Corner of Bellemede Road and Route 1. Big clean up. 

 Realistically, who's fault is this? People are supposed to be held accountable for the correct disposal of that waste.

  

[auburnseeker]

10 hours ago, John348 said:

People are supposed to be held accountable

That is where many of the problems automotive or not lie.  Seems few except those on the bottom rungs get held accountable in any great percentage.  Seems like 10-100 small time guys get nailed for every big one they get,  for something pretty minor. When the big guys are getting away with much more serious crimes. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[John348]

13 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

And.. same thing in Richmond, VA. Corner of Bellemede Road and Route 1. Big clean up. 

 

Frank it's too bad it happened, but on a positive note, the problem was discovered and is now getting cleaned up.

[1912Staver]

Unfortunately I doubt the EPA has much of a presence in Mexico or the Far East.

[Mikefit]

Just wait till the roads all need department the government adds what is now called road tax and need more money the will tax cars to the point very few can afford them. Your electric bill will have to be taxed for the power you use to recharge your car then cause tax then a delivery tax the will be no end to the tax they will dream up then you really see that the electric cars are just to costly to own and operate. 

 

[TerryB]

3 minutes ago, Mikefit said:

Just wait till the roads all need department the government adds what is now called road tax and need more money the will tax cars to the point very few can afford them. Your electric bill will have to be taxed for the power you use to recharge your car then cause tax then a delivery tax the will be no end to the tax they will dream up then you really see that the electric cars are just to costly to own and operate. 

 

I suspect a miles driven tax will be adopted.  Some states now use higher registration fees to collect funds from EV owners.  The plug in hybrids are the outliers as the miles they travel are a mix of EV power and gasoline.  Hard to set a fee for them as the owners use of battery only miles traveled is not easily defined. The adoption of EV highway taxes should not be unexpected by anyone purchasing an EV car today.

Some states are addressing the issue now, others are doing studies.  Here in PA the Highway use fuel tax is higher on diesel fuel than gasoline.  Haven’t heard any uproar about that.  No decision yet on EV use taxes but it can’t be far away as the numbers of EVs on the highways around here increase.

[John348]

I can't help to notice the abundance of crystal balls that members have predicting the future, why not just use it to get the lotto numbers? instead all this negative stuff. I would think if you have the money to purchase a new EV or ICE you have the money to pay the tax  

 

I feel I am asking  fair question, are any of the members that are complaining about EV's planning on buying a NEW vehicle in the next 3-5 years? or have they purchased any new vehicle in the last 3-5 years? 

 

I saw the ad last night the new Jeep Grand Wagoneer Starting at $89,000 ICE, so the options are there. So once you ad the delivery fees, destination charges, prep, and taxes, it's over a $100K!  

  

Edited March 15, 2022 by John348 (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

I am more concerned about the increasing rarity of small cars with manual transmission options actually. I will almost certainly be in the market for a new daily driver, econobox in the next 2 - 4 years. Really no choice now but to hunt for a low mile used car. And probably pay very near to what it sold for new if todays market trends are still in force at that time. Auto transmissions leave me cold even with larger vehicles, but with a small car make me think I have borrowed my Grandmothers car.

 A BR-Z / FRS would be fine, but about double or more the sticker price my income allows.

I bought my last "new" car 11 years ago. It was actually a very nearly new trade in . I was there to buy a new car , but no dealer in my area had any manual transmission examples in stock. But they did have the one I bought that had only just been traded in on a bigger car. New baby on the way apparently. Very low miles and the dealer made all the fine print identical to a brand new purchase.

 My wife was also about to buy the same thing a couple of years later during an incentive campaign. Cash in her hand , but once again no manual trans examples anywhere in Western Canada. 6 -8 weeks special order and by that time the incentive price would not have been honored. At the first dealer they told us no one wanted a manual so they never ordered any. At the second dealer we were told they sell like hot cakes and were sold out months before throughout the dealer network.  She kept her Ranger.

Edited March 15, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, John348 said:

I feel I am asking  fair question, are any of the members that are complaining about EV's planning on buying a NEW vehicle in the next 3-5 years? or have they purchased any new vehicle in the last 3-5 years?

Although I'm not complaining about EV's I'll answer your question.

Yes and yes.

I have nothing against EV's other than the range limitations. If I lived in an urban setting with many charging stations, or I could charge at work, or  my usage was typically short legs I would buy one.

I live in a more rural setting rather than being jammed cheek by jowl with people I don't know or care to know.

The closest public station is 15 miles away and is a one hook up deal.

An EV is not in my near future  and truth be known I can't live long enough for them to be practical for me.

I suspect there are a great many others in that same situation.

So, while EV's may now be practical for a great many urban dwellers they have a looong way to go to be practical for all....Bob

                                                   

 

 

[John348]

1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

I am more concerned about the increasing rarity of small cars with manual transmission options actually. I will almost certainly be in the market for a new daily driver, econobox in the next 2 - 4 years. Really no choice now but to hunt for a low mile used car. And probably pay very near to what it sold for new if todays market trends are still in force at that time. Auto transmissions leave me cold even with larger vehicles, but with a small car make me think I have borrowed my Grandmothers car.

 A BR-Z / FRS would be fine, but about double or more the sticker price my income allows.

I bought my last "new" car 11 years ago. It was actually a very nearly new trade in . I was there to buy a new car , but no dealer in my area had any manual transmission examples in stock. But they did have the one I bought that had only just been traded in on a bigger car. New baby on the way apparently. Very low miles and the dealer made all the fine print identical to a brand new purchase.

 My wife was also about to buy the same thing a couple of years later during an incentive campaign. Cash in her hand , but once again no manual trans examples anywhere in Western Canada. 6 -8 weeks special order and by that time the incentive price would not have been honored. At the first dealer they told us no one wanted a manual so they never ordered any. At the second dealer we were told they sell like hot cakes and were sold out months before throughout the dealer network.  She kept her Ranger.

Fair enough, your situation is very different, and small cars with a manual transmission have pretty much become a thing of the past. I remember my Father in Law when he bought a new Chevrolet Celebrity Station Wagon in 1988 did not believe the salesman when he said that they did not make them with manual transmissions any more. I understand and more importantly I do appreciate your situation. Thanks for answering

 

1 hour ago, Bhigdog said:

Although I'm not complaining about EV's I'll answer your question.

Yes and yes.

I have nothing against EV's other than the range limitations. If I lived in an urban setting with many charging stations, or I could charge at work, or  my usage was typically short legs I would buy one.

I live in a more rural setting rather than being jammed cheek by jowl with people I don't know or care to know.

The closest public station is 15 miles away and is a one hook up deal.

An EV is not in my near future  and truth be known I can't live long enough for them to be practical for me.

I suspect there are a great many others in that same situation.

So, while EV's may now be practical for a great many urban dwellers they have a looong way to go to be practical for all....Bob

                                                   

 

 

 

Thanks for answering Bob, I was just curious, the EV's have the greatest impact on certain segment's of the new car market. The GM brand I have always purchased new for my wife is going all electric. The service department is close about 5 miles from the house so that has always been a huge selling point to me. The mileage will work for her vehicle, it will be used in suburban NYC. I am going to be buying in the next year or two, and pretty much already decided it will be electric. Not that I am an environmentalist, it just makes sense for me.

The reason I asked the question was I could see if people were brand loyal and this change forced them to change brands.

If you have not done it yet and you get a chance to test drive a Tesla do so! I was pretty impressive. Instant power

Always good

Thanks again   

Edited March 15, 2022 by John348 (see edit history)

[ply33]

1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

I am more concerned about the increasing rarity of small cars with manual transmission options actually. . .

From an engineering point of view the only reason there is a multiple speed transmission on an internal combustion engine vehicle is because of some basic flaws in the engine itself among them:

• It generates zero torque at zero RPM.
• Sufficient torque for good acceleration is only available over a limited range of RPMs.
• It is most economical only over a different relatively limited range of RPMs

So you need some sort of soft engagement mechanism to get you started at all. And some sort of multiple speed gearing to allow you to have good torque for acceleration or for better fuel economy. And you need to shift between those gears when going from economy to performance: Think about cruising along a highway wanting economy then wanting to accelerate to pass where you want power.

 

For a long while the only option was a clutch and a manual gear box. Most drivers couldn’t care less about managing all that so, at least in North America, automatic transmissions have become the favored solution.

 

Get rid of the internal combustion engine and you get rid of the need for a complicated automatic transmission. Or even, for that matter, a simpler manual transmission with a manual clutch. A clutch which is/was so abuse prone it is/was excluded from many vehicle drivetrain warranties.

 

In some ways I view an internal combustion engined vehicle like a railway steam locomotive in about 1950: A marvelous mechanical device that is on its way out of use after a 100+ year reign because something better has come along. The diesel-electric locomotives have never had the fascination for me that the old steam locomotives have. The noises, smells, exposed mechanicals, etc. just invite you to be fascinated with a steam locomotive. But diesel-electric locomotives are lower maintenance, more efficient, etc. and so replaced the steam locomotive.

 

I too mourn the small to non-existent selection of small cars. Totally market driven, most car buyers today want a big vehicle. In this case the broader market does not agree with my desires.

 

28 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

. . . I have nothing against EV's other than the range limitations. If I lived in an urban setting with many charging stations, or I could charge at work, or  my usage was typically short legs I would buy one.

I live in a more rural setting rather than being jammed cheek by jowl with people I don't know or care to know.

The closest public station is 15 miles away and is a one hook up deal. . .

You don’t have electricity at your house?

 

Most EV owners with houses seldom visit a public charging station. Plug in when you get home. The next day you wake up to a “full tank” and your car is ready for a couple hundred miles (for a newer mid to upper end EV) of driving.

 

If you or your electrical provider is worried about overloading the grid then you are likely to find that your utility has a “time of use” plan with discounted electrical cost during times of the day when the grid is under utilized, typically in the middle of the night. That should still give you enough time to fully recharge your car for the next day’s driving.

 

While there is a DC fast charging station about 6 miles from my home, the closest DC fast charger that I have used is about 60 miles away: I wanted to be “full up” before dropping into the desert for several days where there were no chargers at all. The only other times I have used a DC fast charger has been on road trips of more than 300 hundred miles.

 

All this to say, for the average driver that owns a house the number and location of EV charging stations is not all that important on a day to day basis.

 

However if you drive more that a couple hundred miles a day then, yes, an EV is not for you.

 

Or if you live in a urban setting jammed cheek by jowl with your neighbors and have to park in the street then an EV may not be for you because you would actually have to find a relatively expensive public charging station once a week or so.

[1912Staver]

The number one reason for opting for an econobox is so I can afford to be involved with my " hobby cars ". My Staver Chicago basket case, 1960 MGA, 1974 TVR 2500 and 1978 Lola T492. All except the Lola were bought decades ago , when I had a reasonably well paying career. The Lola was my retirement gift to myself, cashed in my bulging overtime bank upon retirement.

I can't even imagine having a daily driver without a I.C. engine and manual transmission. It's all I have known for the last 50 years. I can drive an automatic, but nearly never do so. { or want to }

Edited March 16, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

16 minutes ago, ply33 said:

You don’t have electricity at your house?

Yes I do.

And for a fair bit of my driving that would work. But when I drive 110 miles to go off grid camping/hang gliding It would be a hassle. I'm not real good at sweating range. I got a small taste of that towing with a diesel truck and a big trailer. Always worrying about finding fuel and when I did if it could handle my trailer.

Just the thought of going miles out of my way to find a charger only to land behind some doofus getting a 100% charge at the sloooo rate while he's playing with his phone pisses me off...... NOT GONNA HAPPEN!..........Bob

[maok]

59 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

Yes I do.

And for a fair bit of my driving that would work. But when I drive 110 miles to go off grid camping/hang gliding It would be a hassle. I'm not real good at sweating range. I got a small taste of that towing with a diesel truck and a big trailer. Always worrying about finding fuel and when I did if it could handle my trailer.

Just the thought of going miles out of my way to find a charger only to land behind some doofus getting a 100% charge at the sloooo rate while he's playing with his phone pisses me off...... NOT GONNA HAPPEN!..........Bob

Let the car sweat for you.

[JACK M]

Since gas prices are on the rise and spring is near and my lawn is over an acre, I filled a few 5-gallon cans of gas to have around the place.

I don't really care for the desert rock type of yards, but they are looking better all the time.

 

I am with those that will let the new guys play with the electrics, I just don't see it in what short future I may have.

Oh yea, I like three pedals as well.

[AzBob]

Boots on the ground type observation here. Just traveled 2000 miles round trip from AZ to Chickasha, OK Pre War Swap Meet mostly on I-40.  I counted the number of Tesla's on I-40 on one hand. a Total of 3. Didn't see one Tesla in Chickasha. In addition, did not see any charging stations in the rest areas. Seems like a good place to have them. Just reporting one mans' observation.

 

Another observation. Gas prices are Not slowing folks down. I cruised for the most part at 70 mph in 75 mph speed zones to improve my mpg. Most cars and pickup trucks were zipping along at speeds in excess of 75 mph. Semi's were traveling at 70 to 75 plus.

[Larry Schramm]

On 3/21/2022 at 1:01 PM, AzBob said:

Boots on the ground type observation here. Just traveled 2000 miles round trip from AZ to Chickasha, OK Pre War Swap Meet mostly on I-40.  I counted the number of Tesla's on I-40 on one hand. a Total of 3. Didn't see one Tesla in Chickasha. In addition, did not see any charging stations in the rest areas. Seems like a good place to have them. Just reporting one mans' observation.

 

Another observation. Gas prices are Not slowing folks down. I cruised for the most part at 70 mph in 75 mph speed zones to improve my mpg. Most cars and pickup trucks were zipping along at speeds in excess of 75 mph. Semi's were traveling at 70 to 75 plus.

 

Stop in Shamrock, Tx.  There is a bank of Tesla chargers behind the art deco gas station on old RT66.  They are also right next to the what appears to be a new Holiday Inn Express. 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2265834,-100.2484575,3a,75y,330.32h,96.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1selUAF6ZJqlvErGW4WHD3wA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[jdome]

9 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Stop in Shamrock, Tx.  There is a bank of Tesla chargers behind the art deco gas station on old RT66.  They are also right next to the what appears to be a new Holiday Inn Express. 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2265834,-100.2484575,3a,75y,330.32h,96.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1selUAF6ZJqlvErGW4WHD3wA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

It doesn't look very trailer friendly if you are towing. That is typical of charging stations I have seen.