Crunch

[ericisback]

1965 Riv. photo from a FB Riviera group….yikes!  Not sure how many of the 34,586 Rivieras were left before this, but surely, there is one less now

[mobileparts]

Yeah, that can make a grown man groan.... and cry......

 

I hope and pray no one was inside when that RIV got rear ended....

[RivNut]

The yellow and red biohazard sign on the window is a warning to others that there's probably a lot of blood inside. Not much of a chance for a passenger in a car with a cruciform frame when it's ben hit like this. Not a lot of side impact resistance.

Edited January 5, 2022 by RivNut (see edit history)

[RivNut]

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by RivNut (see edit history)

[jframe]

The pic of the right hand side has been floating around the old Interweb for years. Never have seen the left hand side. I took a pretty good impact in mine on the left quarter panel behind the tire about four years ago.

Hit hard enough to knock the spare tire off it's mount, and put a vertical crease behind the PASSENGER side door. Hardly any frame pulling was necessary; the body just shifted on the frame. Back good as new.

[Seafoam65]

That looks like it might buff out!

[Riviera Russ 65]

It kind of looks like a crash where the car stopped suddenly and a transport truck piled into it.  Takes a lot of weight and some speed to do that type of damage.  Jaws of life may have been used as well.

[Hazdaz]

Old cars are so much less safe in an accident than newer cars.  Not trying to be a kill-joy, but far too many people have this illusion that cars from this era were safe because they have steel bumpers or that the doors close with a solid thunk and the hood is a workout to lift, but in an accident that's not going to keep you alive. 

 

I absolutely love my '64 but if I knew I was going to be in an accident, I'd take any modern car over it no matter how small and cheap-looking it might be.

 

Stay safe, guys.

[RivNut]

Next time you’re sitting in an early Riviera take a look at the hood. It’s narrower that the windshield. If your hood hinges fail, the hood is coming through the windshield.  Later models have hoods wider than the glass and will ride up the A pillars.  😳

[EmTee]

Though I was probably only about 7 at the time, I distinctly remember the steering wheel of the '64 GP my father bought to fix up for us sticking up well into the driver's seating area (it was only a year or two old at the time).  The car was hit in the left front corner and according to my father, it was owned by a doctor who died in the accident.  Interestingly, other than breaking the horn ring, there was no permanent damage to the interior.  The frame had to be straightened and LF fender, radiator support, hood and grilles had to be replaced.  That was the car that inspired me to get my own GP...

[71GS]

On 1/9/2022 at 10:59 PM, RivNut said:

Next time you’re sitting in an early Riviera take a look at the hood. It’s narrower that the windshield. If your hood hinges fail, the hood is coming through the windshield.  Later models have hoods wider than the glass and will ride up the A pillars.  😳

The newer hinges, when closed, are designed to hook into the lower hinge and not let it go back into the glass. The hood will buckle in the middle area and the rear will generally stay where it belongs. Pretty much all the front and rear structures are made to crush and absorb energy as much as possible before it transfers to the passenger compartment. All designed to keep the passenger compartment intact and us safe. I’ve looked at wrecked cars for a living for 25 years as an adjuster. It’s pretty amazing how much better newer cars protect the passengers. 

That 65 above got hit hard directly in the left rear, not in the side at all. Pretty scary how bad it folded up.

Be careful out there while enjoying these great old cars.

 

 Ed’s right about the biohazard stickers. They put them on there to warn anyone about blood in there. 

 

Brian

[RivNut]

The hoods on newer cars, and I don’t know how long ago this started, are wider across at the back than the distance between the A pillars. If anything, the hood will ride up the A pillars and state out of the passenger compartment.

[EmTee]

As 71GS said, hinges are designed to jam the back edge of the hood into the cowl so that the hood folds at 'wrinkle points' formed into the hood structure.  Assuming it remains latched, the result is an inverted "V".  The energy absorbing steering columns introduced in 1967 prevents the steering wheel from protruding into the passenger space, as I described was the case with the '64 GP my father bought from the wrecking yard.

[65VerdeGS]

Yes, that gold Riv took a nasty hit!  Anyone riding in that car is unlikely to have survived the impact.

 

Notice the venetian blinds in the back window.  Hadn't seen that in a long time!

 

A number of years ago a friend had a head-on collision driving his Flame Red '65 Gran Sport. He punched the gas to pass a slower vehicle as he entered the highway.  The throttle stuck wide open, and the surge of power overwhelmed the brakes and he careened across the grass median, striking an oncoming Suzuki Trooper with his left front fender.   Not good.  Both cars were totaled (the other driver survived.) My friend suffered 3 broken ribs and other injuries from his chest striking the steering wheel on impact, as he was only wearing a lap belt.  He was lucky to have survived the crash. He rebuilt the car, replacing the front clip and left fender.  The impact buckled the roof slightly near the C-pillar.  He had the frame pulled, replaced all the damaged parts and got the car repainted and back on the road!   To this day he regrets not having had the presence of mind to turn the engine off with the key when the throttle stuck open.

 

The bigger heavier cars may have had an edge in safety against smaller ones in a crash back in the day, but modern cars are clearly much safer.

 

 

[RivNut]

I had a 55 Buick Century that had the oil filter cap come off and wedge itself under the throttle linkage.  It was more than the brakes could handle but I quickly remembered that our older 50 Buick had the throttle stick once and Dad calmly shifted it into neutral.  I did the same with the Century.  The engine goes hog wild with the transmission in neutral until you turn off the ignition and open the hood to find the problem, but it's better than the alternative.  

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, 65VerdeGS said:

The throttle stuck wide open, and the surge of power overwhelmed the brakes and he careened across the grass median, striking an oncoming Suzuki Trooper with his left front fender.   Not good.  Both cars were totaled

There are a surprisingly high number of original Rivieras out there today that could easily repeat that stunt. To check if yours is one put a short bar between the exhaust manifold and the inner control arm shaft and lift the engine to see if the motor mount is delaminated. When the engine torques over it will pull the mechanical accelerator linkage right along with it. Don't assume anything.

If you feel it happen shut the ignition off.

[telriv]

AS MANY times that I've broken my left motor mount NEVER EVER did the throttle stick wide open & originally in the beginning I BROKE A LOT OF THEM!!!  

 

Tom T.

[60FlatTop]

Anyone who has never had the problem can disregard the suggestion to check their motor mounts.

[telriv]

The way I solved the problem was a small piece of chain 4 links long. Paint it semi gloss black & you can't even see it under the P/S pump. NEVER broke a mount again in over 50 years even when using slicks at the drag strip.

 

Tom T.

[XframeFX]

This post started out as a '65 being rear-ended. Well, 2021 was the first summer I got to drive my Riv in 35 years. I deemed it fit for the road being a stickler in getting everything to work.

However, I have been approached by people about my brake lights or, lack of.

My '63 has a pressure switch on the brake master cylinder. Trouble-shooting indicated that switch was flakey. But now I'm finding the turn signal switch is the culprit.

I've accepted the fact that the turn signal mechanism won't do a left cancel at certain tilt positions. But now the brake lights are dead after a left turn. Not only do I have to do a manual cancel, I have to go from left to right and back to the middle to restore brake light operation.

It is a sneaky situation, the driver would never know unless being told or getting rear-ended!

Many hours were spent on that switch and now I'm finding it's still not 100%. I would've swapped it for a Shee-Mar switch but wanted to keep my cornering lamps. I think it's more important to prevent a rear-end collision than to have cornering lamps.

[1965rivgs]

  Either your switch is not returning to a neutral position, in which case you would have one brake light and not the other, or the contacts in your switch are compromised...or both.

Tom

[telriv]

John,

 

    By your description it almost sounds like the actuating cable is broken. 

 

Tom T. 

[Seafoam65]

I agree......broken cable

[MikeJS]

7 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

I agree......broken cable

Good day.

 

Interestingly enough after reading this thread I clicked on "Next Unread Topic" and was taken to this thread below from 2016, which I think is the same cable being discussed on John's '63 and your suggestion for a fix, (if it is indeed the same 'turn signal cable" being discussed, if not, sorry about that...)

 

In case this link doesn't work, I've copied your reply...

 

"

Original Parts Group sells these cables for Chevrolet Impalas of the same year and I wonder if they would work

or could be modified to work. I wish someone would buy one of these and compare it to an original Riviera cable to see if that

would be a possibllity. So far nobody on the forum has tried this although I have tried to get somebody to do it for quite some time.

Why don't you order one and let us know if it  is the same length with the same brackets attached or if it can be modified to do the job."

 

I think this is the OPGI cable you referenced...

 

https://www.opgi.com/chassis-suspension/steering-components/tilt-column-cable-assembly1/cable-assembly-turn-signal-tilt-column-1964-66-a-body-ch26744.html

 

 

[1965rivgs]

To be more specific for the benefit of the OP...not a broken cable, but the cable casing mounting tab may be broken. That's why the switch is not returning to the neutral position or is being pulled out of the neutral position when the position of the tilt wheel is changed.

  If the cable itself was broken there would be no actuation on the turn signal switch at all.

Tom

[XframeFX]

5 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

If the cable itself was broken there would be no actuation on the turn signal switch at all.

Exactly, it's 90% operational.

 

There's a little slack, hysteresis in the cable. Thought I could offset it by adjusting the switch mounting at the bottom of the column, find a happy middle ground.

I can live with manually cancelling left indication but can't tolerate brake lights going AWOL after a left turn.

The cable was repaired in 1989 by a transmission shop that man-handled my disabled Riviera in and out of the service bay when they goofed on the Dynaflow rebuild and had to do it a 2nd time. I installed it myself the 1st time and should've done it myself the 2nd time as well. Not only did they break my turn signal but stripped 1 torque converter nut. Tow truck driver said "you picked this place for repair? Good luck!"

 

Anyway, point is, a Riv owner could be unaware the brake lights are not functioning. Not the best design.

Edited January 27, 2022 by XframeFX (see edit history)

[XframeFX]

16 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

switch is not returning to a neutral position, in which case you would have one brake light

Exactly this too. More adjustment has one brake light working and not the other. Just requires a nudge to get them both on.

Switch was serviced by myself 5 years ago to clean out blasting media and re-lube.

Don't want to fix the slack without trying more adjustment first.

Thanks Tom!

[1965rivgs]

8 hours ago, XframeFX said:

Exactly this too. More adjustment has one brake light working and not the other. Just requires a nudge to get them both on.

Switch was serviced by myself 5 years ago to clean out blasting media and re-lube.

Don't want to fix the slack without trying more adjustment first.

Thanks Tom!

  The cable casing anchor tab is mounted to the switch. This maintains a constant relationship between the cable wire end and the actuating pin of the switch. The switch itself is able to move on its mounting bracket. When all is well, as the tilt wheel position is changed, the cable casing positions the switch in various places on its mounting, again, because the switch moves on its stationary mounting bracket. However, when the cable casing anchor breaks, instead of moving the switch on its mounting bracket, it moves the actuating pin on the switch instead because the cable is no longer anchored to the switch itself. This is why changing the tilt wheel position moves the actuating pin off the neutral position and results in misalignment of the two brake light contacts in switch. End result is one brake light but not both.

  The best way to repair this condition is to change the cable and restore the intended operation. But a temporary repair can be made by placing the tilt wheel in one preferred position and then adjust the switch so that the actuating pin is in the neutral position. I generally use the tilt wheel in one preferred position when I drive so as long as the tilt is returned to the same position this "band aid" fix works. Of course, if the position of the tilt wheel is changed while the vehicle is parked or a second driver prefers a different position, the brake light contacts in the switch will likely be misaligned again.

  Hope this helps explain.

 

Tom

[XframeFX]

On 1/27/2022 at 8:29 AM, 1965rivgs said:

However, when the cable casing anchor breaks, instead of moving the switch on its mounting bracket

Thanks again Tom. But I made that transmission shop repair the cable back in '89 seeing they broke it. I've done zero miles on it up to 2021.

 

Didn’t think replacing my flakey brake light switch on the master cylinder would have me trouble-shooting the turn signal switch at certain tilt positions. Now having Buick Service Bulletin #63-6, discovered 2 things:

1-      That 3” round duct for the Driver’s AC Vent was resting on the Turn Signal Switch. It was the reason why turn signal function varied at various angles of tilt. This is mentioned in the Service Bulletin.

2-      The Turn Signal Spring was left off after repairing the switch several years back, I left the spring off as recommended on this forum. I believe the spring is needed to take up the slack. So, it went back on.

After much tinkering, I went from no brake lights to having one (without nudging the lever to right), but same behavior at all tilt positions. It still doesn’t cancel enough from a left turn to neutral position. Have to do a nudge to the  middle for both brake lights .

Right turn cancel and both brake lights, fine.

 

I will have to pull the steering wheel next. Maybe I can shim up the cable at the top. No adjustment at the bottom which has the clamp crimped-on the cable casing.

Edited January 31, 2022 by XframeFX (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

9 hours ago, XframeFX said:

Thanks again Tom. But I made that transmission shop repair the cable back in '89 seeing they broke it. I've done zero miles on it up to 2021.

 

Didn’t think replacing my flakey brake light switch on the master cylinder would have me trouble-shooting the turn signal switch at certain tilt positions. Now having Buick Service Bulletin #63-6, discovered 2 things:

1-      That 3” round duct for the Driver’s AC Vent was resting on the Turn Signal Switch. It was the reason why turn signal function varied at various angles of tilt. This is mentioned in the Service Bulletin.

2-      The Turn Signal Spring was left off after repairing the switch several years back, I left the spring off as recommended on this forum. I believe the spring is needed to take up the slack. So, it went back on.

After much tinkering, I went from no brake lights to having one (without nudging the lever to right), but same behavior at all tilt positions. It still doesn’t cancel enough from a left turn to neutral position. Have to do a nudge to the  middle for both brake lights .

Right turn cancel and both brake lights, fine.

 

I will have to pull the steering wheel next. Maybe I can shim up the cable at the top. No adjustment at the bottom which has the clamp crimped-on the cable casing.

John,

  Yes, the spring at the switch maintains constant tension on the cable so the switch wont hang up on the stationary mounting bracket when the cable "pushes", as in lowering the tilt position. It doesnt hurt to put some lube at the contact point between switch and stationary bracket. Unfotunately, the spring also serves to directly load the cable casing and anchor point.

  Yes, anything that physically interferes with the movemnet of the switch can produce inconsistent operation.

  When you pull the steering wheel you will find a stamped spring steel spring which encouages the turn signal yoke to return to a neutral position. Make sure that spring is placing the appropriate tension on the yoke to return it completely. You will also find a plastic lever which transfers the movement of the yoke to the cable end. Make sure that plastic lever is intact and not broken or cracked as this is a weak point in the system. Obviously, make sure all components in the mechanism are free to move, including the cable/wire and lubricated as necessary. 

Good luck!

Tom