1938 Studebaker front end repair.

[edinmass]

22 hours ago, SC38dls said:

Not knowing what I’m doing has it’s drawbacks ..........

Hell, it never stopped me from anything! 😏

[EmTee]

Dave, are you sanding the filler to 400?  When I did body work in the past, I would sand the filler down to 180 or maybe 220.  Then glaze or use high-build primer.  The 180 establishes the shape and then the following steps are filling-in the 180 grit scratches, working down to 400 (or 600) with successive layers of primer.  My only worry with the peanut butter jar is that the round shape may lead to some ripples on flat sections.  The jar is probably fine on the curves, but you'll want a long, flat block for flat/straight sections.  I have wrapped paper around a paint mixing stick as a smaller, semi-flexible sanding block.  As someone else mentioned, when you get to the 320/400 wet-or-dry paper, spray the surface with water using a spray bottle.  The wet surface will allow you to see any ripples that would show in the final finish.  Keep up the good work - you'll be proud of the job when you're finished! 

[SC38dls]

EmTee- I’ve been getting advice to use and not use a glaze but it is very difficult to sand. My hands are arthritic enough to avoid sanding as much as possible. I’m only using the jar for the curves. I’ve got a good sanding Bloch that is 10-12 inches long and a little flexible for the flat areas. Using the 400 grid has taken the sanding marks out in most cases. I’m going to do the high build primer and sand then prime again. Basically the same with the final black paint but more  coats. I would like it to get it back the original black shine or as close as possible. 
dave s 

Edited November 15, 2021 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[EmTee]

I know exactly what you're saying - my hands also complain if I try to do things I did 30 years ago without a second thought.  My main point was that once you have the filler sanded to fill the low spots and have established the shape, everything following that is aimed at just progressively filling the scratches from the previous step as you work to the final finish with the 400 (or 600?) paper.  The wet sanding is really not as difficult, as it doesn't require much pressure, just nice, overlapping strokes.

Edited November 15, 2021 by EmTee (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Tuesday 11/16/21. 
I’ve done two coats of sandable primer and sanded each down with 400 grid. Then the grey is filler that I sanded down to 800 grid. The fenders feel smooth to these arthritic hands. Next will come a black primer just to cover the grey and I plan on sanding it to 800 also. Is this plan correct, wrong or it’s been so long no one really gives a damn (me included at times-sanding gets old quick).  Pic of grey filler primer. 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[mike6024]

Looks good

[wayne sheldon]

Looking good! I do see a number of spots that will want a dab of Bondo or spot putty. It takes just a bit more effort, but I prefer the regular Bondo for those little spots. One must work fast, mix a very small amount, and paddle it into low spots. I mix what would amount to about an eighth cup or less Bondo. The tricky part is getting the right very small amount of catalyst. Very easy to get too little, then it has setting and sanding problems. I usually shoot for just a tad bit too much catalyst, know which places I need to touch up, and just work it fast. then repeat with the next group of small spots. 

Some of those spots would fill in with enough layers of high-fill sand-able primer. However small amounts of Bondo I find works better, and fills and smooths faster with less sanding required. I use a plastic putty knife nearly two inches wide, pressed at a sharp angle like a concrete screed to form the Bondo nearly to a finish height. Reduces sanding a lot!

Sometimes I put a coat of primer over the Bondo before I begin sanding. It helps to fill the surface roughness of the Bondo, and aids in seeing what needs less or more sanding.

 

SHHH! Don't tell anyone there is Bondo in my model T!

[SC38dls]

Thanks Wayne,  I do have a question about painting and I apologize if this has already been discussed. After all the primer prep work is done and I put on a coat of base paint ( using base and clear coat - That was all I could find in spray cans that they could match my panel with) do I sand it then put another coat on and sand it then another coat and use a rubbing compound and buffer to make final coat all black? Then put clear coat on?  Or do I skip the sanding ?  I guess I’m asking for a paint step by step process for base coat clear coat painting. Thanks 

dave s 

[wayne sheldon]

I am probably not the best person to answer that question. It varies somewhat with the specific type of paint. Here in Califunny, we are restricted to only certain types of "sort-of" enamel paints, limited spray cans of no-mix epoxies, and several different kinds of thin fast drying stuff they don't call lacquer. Otherwise, some really lousy water base garbage.

The enamels, either spray can or quarts, do benefit by sanding between coats. However, the paint needs to dry for about a week before sanding! Really slows down the progress.

Some of the maybe better and faster drying paints do not want to be sanded between coats! Sanding them cuts the microscopic surface of the paint, and the next coat's thinners (such as they are?) will soak in and turn it into a "wrinkle finish" or even lift it completely off!

Some of our faster drying paints MUST be second coated within thirty minutes, otherwise the second coat might lift the first coat. However, it cannot be second coated in under twenty minutes, or again wrinkle coat. Ever try to paint things in a ten minute window? If you don't second coat within that ten minute window, some of Califunny's paints again require waiting a couple weeks for full setting before second coating.

Be glad you don't live here! 

Sometimes decent spray cans show up here. Then quickly disappear again.

I have developed so many bad habits for dealing with the bad paints, I am not sure I could do a really nice paintjob again?

[TAKerry]

When you get to the final paint job, it should be spray the black on, let it sit for the prescribed flash time (something like 15 min or so but check the lables) hit another coat of black. If it is all covered and looking nicely at that point let it sit again for the prescribed time, then hit the clear coat. AGAIN, wait for the flash time then another clear coat. If you can get 3 or 4 coats of clear that will prob. be good. The more you get on the more forgiving it can be if you decide to wet sand.  You should not be doing any sanding between coats once you start laying down the colour.

 

Once the clear sets up, IF you want you can 'colour' sand, then buff to a shine. BUT this is not necessary. You can leave the clear alone as its sprayed, job well done! Advantage of colour buff is, if you have a run,  bug, orange peel, etc. you can work that out. I colour sand up to 4000 ( I think, I would have to go to the shop and look at what I have), then hit with buffing compound in about 3 different grits up to super shiny. AFTER you finish the buffing process then you can put a good coat of wax on.

[SC38dls]

Thanks guys that answers a lot of questions and actually makes life easier on this final work !  I appreciate it 

dave s 

[GARY F]

I am no body man but I like the rag on my fingers and rub over everything to feel for high and low spots.

[EmTee]

If possible, try wetting the fender with your spray bottle to see how it looks wet.  That will help highlight any spots that need attention before final primer.

[TAKerry]

2019-03-24_12-53-10 by Kerry Grubb, on Flickr

2019-03-24_12-53-10 by Kerry Grubb, on Flickr

Dave my technique (may not be the right one but works for me) for putting on the high build primer. In the pics you can see the darker spots. These are the low areas. I am using a long sanding block that will bridge the gaps. Once sanded 'flat' I will hit the low spots with some more primer, and even filler if too deep. Repeat this process until no low spots show up. Similar to using a guide coat. 

[SC38dls]

Thursday 11/18/21

Houston we have a problem !  
I painted a rear fender that had problem areas because of gas dulling the paint and thought it would be easier redo than the front fenders with all the curves. 
The paint color is close to the panel I used as a sample but the texture (if that’s the right terminology) is nowhere near the rest of the car. I suspect it’s because the car is lacquer and the fender is base/clear coat. 
I can’t get lacquer but I believe acrylic lacquer is available. 
My questions are: 

1. I hope you guys will bear with my stupidity on this painting problem. 
2. Is there anything I can do to this to make the fender match the car ( I know paint the rest of the car - not an option) 

3. Should I strip the rear fender get the acrylic lacquer and repaint the fender. 
4.If 3 above what are the steps involved using acrylic lacquer?  Multiple coats with wet sanding between each one? What grade sand paper rubbing compound? 
In others words what did I get myself into! 
5. Find a shop somewhere that is willing to paint an old car and take it there!  Not my choice as I’ve enjoyed the process so part and really want to finish it. But I am realistic about my capabilities. It is not a cost factor as I know the car is worth doing a driver condition paint job better than what I’ve done. 
 

I would really appreciate honest answers to the above. I know 5 is the best one but I have to see if anything else is possible. 
dave s 

 

ps. The white spots are just junk that fell on fender when I pulled off masking. I haven’t wash it yet. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[EmTee]

Dave, is that the base coat, or is there clear on the fender?  Generally, I expect that you'd need to do something to try to match the fresh finish to the existing anyway.  The new paint will undoubtedly look smoother and glossier than the existing lacquer.  I would think that careful color sanding (start with 2000?) would be needed to remove orangepeel and knock-down the gloss.  You'll probably need to color sand before the clear to remove orangepeel and any dirt that may have settled on the paint.  If you apply the clear without sanding you'll be stuck with any imperfections in the black layer.  I wouldn't apply the clear until I was satisfied with the uniformity of the base coat.  I don't know what kind of paint you're using, but it may be possible to use a specific reducer with the clear to yield less gloss, which would probably make it easier to match with the existing sheen.

[TAKerry]

Agree with Emtee, you may be able to wet sand the clear, then start the buffing process with 3m products or something like that. You should be able to adjust the level of gloss during the polish process. Stop when the sheen is close to matching. Of course most people will keep buffing to a high gloss but I dont think you need to.

[SC38dls]

So I should wet sand the black base coat before I put the clear on. Then clear and wet sand or buffing compound some more until it looks close to the rest of the car?  
 

To fix this I should strip it back to bear metal and start over or just wet sand until the base looks ok. It has clear on it now. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

I just reread prior post and think I understand better. If I color sand and then buff to a shine I don’t have to do the clear coat but need to wax it (after a few weeks I presume) and I use multiple grades of buffing  compounds until it reaches the level of the rest of the car?  
Or do I still clear coat after the above? 
 

Sorry I’m so lost but I want to get this right before I start on the front fenders. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[EmTee]

No need to buff the base coat (black) if you're going to clear it.  Just sand the black until it's smooth and even, (you can re-shoot the black at this point, if necessary).  Once you're happy with the black, then apply the clear.  Then repeat the sanding process to level the clear and remove any dirt that settled on it.  At that point you should buff until the sheen matches that of the surrounding original finish.

Edited November 18, 2021 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Digger914]

Lacquer doesn't like to blend. Blending into lacquer takes practice, blending into old lacquer takes lots of practice and it's not just how you lay the paint, it's also how you mix your blending agent into the lacquer. That's a guess and test operation and with the body line of a separate horizontal fender surface next to a vertical body,  I suggest that painting the entire fender will be considerably easier than touching up one small spot on the fender.

 

Sometimes the best hide the repair option for a solid color match, is paint the entire panel with single stage acrylic enamel. It's an old used car fix and this thing is from the time period that trick was used by the used car lots.

[edinmass]

All of the above is why I spin wrenches and don't even attempt body work. It's part art.......and I am NO artist. 

[SC38dls]

Ed, I agree spinning wrenches is so much easier. I could have rebuilt the engine twice in the amount of time I've been doing this body work. It is rewarding learing something new but there are times when I want to take a BIG wrench to these fenders -- but that would just lead to more sanding.

dave s 

[SC38dls]

This is an off the wall question. I can get a gallon of lacquer (real lacquer) from a trusted source but it is in central FL below Ocala/Tampa area. Is anyone possibly driving north thru that area that could pick it up and I would meet you along your route to get it. I am willing to pay for your inconvenience. 
dave s 

[JustDave]

O.k let’s start from the beginning,is this a solvent base paint,if it is then lay 

to three coats of paint down,let it set for two to three days then sand it with 800 to1000 grit sand paper wet and dry,let it set till the next day then shoot two to three coats of color let it set for recommendedtime then put four coats of clear,let the clear set until three day s then colorsandit with 800 grit sandpaper,let it set one to two days then resend with 1000 grit,then cut and buff and your in the home stretch,being that it is a dark color hand polish  after machine polishing till you get the desired finish,I personally would not wax right away but that’s your call

[Paul Dobbin]

Dave,

Now is not the time to accept a poor job.   Remember the Epoxy primer discussion?   It applies to the rear fender too.   Painting new paint of a different type can have a chemical reaction that will ruin the entire job.   Sand and Epoxy the rear fender too.

Wayne Sheldon saw spots that needed more attention, I see them too.   Look for another body man to fix those and shoot the paint,  If you don't, you'll hate the final result. 

 I made that mistake on my first 34 Restoration in 1973, and my body work looked like hell with shiny paint on it.   The second time I had it painted and I let them fix the big mistakes, but should have let them fix them all.   You've saved enough to let somebody fix what you  don't see and put the paint on it to stay.

Paul

Edited November 18, 2021 by Paul Dobbin (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Paul, I agree completely. I do remember the epoxy discussion- I took the rear fender down to bear metal. It only had streaks under the gas filler but it was so easy to strip the paint off I did the whole fender thinking it was a good test area to be sure the paint I purchased had a chance of matching the original paint. If it didn't it would be much easier to redo this fender than a front fender with all the curves.  I would love to of had a shop do the whole fix but after talking to the shops HAGERTY suggested as their go to shops they were either out of business or no longer work on cars more than 10 years old.  I then started checking every shop with in 30 miles - drove the car to at least six or seven of them and not one will work on old cars.  I got a lead on two shops in Augusta but when I went there and even told them I had the grille they said no, they don't work on old cars.  That's when I said OK I'll do it.  That's when I got all of you involved! So it's your fault for telling me I can do this - no problem we will help you along the way! Just pulling your chain, it's on me and me alone as I smashed the car in the first place. I guess I will just have to follow Edison's advice - when asked about his failing to figure out a light bulk after 100 tries he said I didn't fail 100 times I found 100 ways NOT to make a light bulb.  I now know 1 way NOT to paint a fender and 99 to go!  This will be accomplished as I don't give up (you can ask my wife- she calls me her stubborn Irishman).

Thanks Paul

dave s  

[GARY F]

I agree with Paul about the epoxy primer first to seal the old paint.

[TAKerry]

Dave, make sure there is plenty of turkey, I'll take a trip south next week to help you out!

 

Seriously though, If you were about 6 hrs closer I would love to stop by and give you a days worth of work.

[Paul Dobbin]

Dave,

Not all good painters work in body shops.  Keep looking, ask your fellow club members..  There is bound to be a good painter in a storage garage somewhere near you, or a amatuer who can help you for a fee of some kind.   Lots of painters for dealers or big shops can do side jobs.  Keep asking around.  When I was doing all my own work, friend's would come by with magic markers and circle my spots on the primer that needed more attention.   I didn't like it but ti made me a lot better.  Keep asking around.

Sanding is the most important part of a good paint job, so you still can claim it.

Where in South Carolina are you?

Paul

Edited November 19, 2021 by Paul Dobbin (see edit history)

[mike6024]

I "single stage" available, as opposed to base/clear coat? Acrylic lacquer?

[Walt G]

Acrylic lacquer is good stuff.  ( saying that because the only thing I really know how to paint is lacquer - nitrocellulose or acrylic. )

[mike6024]

Acrylic Enamel and Acrylic Urethane "single stage"

 

https://tcpglobal.com/pages/restoration-shop

 

[SC38dls]

Paul I’m in Aiken SC. Yes I will check around but I don’t really know a lot of people here as we just moved here about four or five months before COVID hit. At that point I basically spent my time rehabbing the house we bought. We actually bought the property and they threw in the house. At least that my story but not my wife’s. 
Things are looking up as a cars and coffee was started recently and will meet this Saturday so I will go and see if I can find someone. 
Acrylic lacquer is available but not in spray cans that was matched to my panel color the way the base/clear coat was matched. I have a source for lacquer but need to find a way to get it from central FL to Aiken. It would be a problem for the person in FL to get it packaged to ship it due to the rules and his current situation. Trying to work that out. 
dave s 

[prewarnut]

I think you're getting a lot of good advice and perhaps almost too much advice as it can be hard to follow what advice to take....At the risk of adding more and at the risk of overlooking something I would add a few friendly tips. For full disclosure many on here probably have a huge more time painting then I do. On the other hand, I probably have a good amount of experience with final finish work and paint correction on two stage paint where I can "hold my own...." My points would be:

1. The Tuesday front fender photo shows more work to do before any color goes down.....It's not worth painting black yet.

2. I wouldn't have tested any other part of the car for risk of what you now have....but easy for me to say now.

3. Black is hard to match and easy to show ripples, etc (but that can't be changed). All the more reason to not be in a hurry to paint yet (like not even this month).

4  The only sanding of the black paint (once it goes down is really to get rid of drips or some bad area - maybe lightly between coats.). The last coat of black "color" shouldn't need sanding as that surface will show through into the clear (if you are doing base coat/clear coat).

5. The purpose of "color sanding" (which is a misnomer) is to final sand and polish and then paint-correct the top coat of clear. It is to essentially remove orange peal - period. Yes this layer could have runs or drips but that requires spot-work in a careful manner. As mentioned, sufficient coverage is necessary to prevent going through this layer. If you do you are done. You need to repaint the whole fender. Ask me how I know....As mentioned 4 coats are probably needed. In some cases 7 or 8 are done. This is really the tricky part.

6. Matching the clear coat to the rest of the car is an art. I probably am not good enough - I know I am not good enough to do it. I can do it on a modern car....

7. Due to number 6 it may be worth buying lacquer or single stage paint or whatever an expert thinks can match what is on the car (unless the car is presently in two stage. In that case it may be necessary to sand and buff or paint correct the whole car to match the new two stage paint but that will change the car's appearance and risks showing a heck of a lot of imperfections). I have paint corrected a number of high end cars and you will be amazed at how bad fenders are after doing such. A contact of mine works at a foreign manufacturer in the USA and they purposely don't polish out the paint greatly at the factory because it will look too poor on the showroom floor. I won't mention the manufacturer.

Hope this helps. I think though the common theme is not to rush this or a lot of re-doing will be needed.

[SC38dls]

Thanks, I am not positive I understand all of it but doing more coats of the black makes sense in a lot of ways. Hopefully it will produce a more even base coat. Time and sanding is not a problem as I have time. The rear fender I stripped had streaks down the fender under the gas filler. I’m sure that was from gas overflows and had to be done anyhow. The rest of the car has the original lacquer paint on it. As far as the front fenders needing more work I will do that but it’s never going to be perfect as I don’t have the skills needed to accomplish that level of repair. It’s a daily driver not a show car. I will keep it until I’m gone from this world. If it has flaws but I can have the fun of driving it for an extra month of my future lifetime that’s fine by me. The insurance policies will provide for my family not the value of this car. So a few flaws, kind of like me is ok. 
dave s 

[Digger914]

Dave, 

 

You may not have the skills needed to accomplish that level of repair today, but you didn't have any skills when you started and look where you are, remember where you started and know that your skills are improving every day. The skills you need aren't to far away. Every new skill comes with a learning curve. My first paint job had more runs than the World Series, my first high speed cut and buff came with a shinny steel body line stripes on the engine hood edge and window pillar edges. My first orange peal removing wet sand was the only thing I got right the first time. Cup gun or rattle can I can now do a great paint job, but I use Mcguiar's when I high speed cut and buff because it's more forgiving than the 3M products. 

 

 

[wayne sheldon]

51 minutes ago, Digger914 said:

My first paint job had more runs than the World Series,

 

I love that! My first full restoration (nearly fifty years ago!), I told people that the only thing that "runs well" was "the paint! (Actually, the car ran GREAT!)

My current project 1915 model T runabout, I salvaged fenders that only a fool would try to fix. (Says something about me!) But silly me, I wanted original Ford fenders, not repros. And I couldn't afford the nice originals I found. I didn't have the time to do nearly what it would take to straighten those things. So, I like to say those flat "fenders have more waves than the average sailor sees in a month!"

 

Hey, if I can't poke fun at myself?

 

[nickelroadster]

The one thing you should always do when painting is to follow the directions.  Different paint systems have different properties and have different ways to do correctly.  When in doubt, you can always contact a manufacturer's rep.  There has been some good advice here but also some that is not so good.  follow the directions!

[SC38dls]

It’s Friday Benny! 11/19/21. 
I have used Meguiars compound on the rear fender paint after I wet sanded with 400, 800, 1000, 1500 and 2000. This is the black paint without a clear coat on it. Some scratches and burn through to redo but otherwise I am happy with the color/shine/texture match to the body panel and door. What do you all think?  Clear coat or just wax it ?  
dave s