The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida

[wayne sheldon]

I knew that White, like Pierce manufacturing, was a well established and successful company long before turning to automobiles. All interest stuff!

[edinmass]

Funny how things turn up..........I just got a call from a White owner......who has owned both steam and gas cars, as well as a handful of trucks and busses. He told me the first White cars with left hand drive were the 1911 40 hp cars. Then the six sixty went to left hand drive in 1912......and the 30 hp cars were the last to go to left hand drive in 1913. Like anything White.........who the hell knows. The reason for the call........a new White gas car just popped up. And it’s not like anything anyone has ever seen. It appears it may be a 1915 or 1916 30 hp car. I’m leaning towards 1916.......... but the emergency brake is on the left side of the steering column and the shifter is in the right but set back like a truck progressive transmission. I don’t have permission to share photos yet.......but the car came out of Michigan and is now just two hours north west of me in Florida. The new owner really doesn’t know anything about it.........so it looks like a few of us “White guys” are going to take a road trip to see if we can figure out what it is............🤔

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

Is it this beauty?

[edinmass]

21 hours ago, 13White said:

Well, this photo certainly has me questioning what I know about 1913 White cars. 
it is definitely left hand drive as the script on the radiator is not reversed. But the gas headlights and oil side lamps are earlier more like an 11-12. Also, the external door handle on the rear door is not found on a 1913. The top of the firewall and windshield look earlier like 1911 as well. The steering wheel has 4 spokes, where the earlier cars usually have 3 spokes. The large front hubs look like the larger 40hp car. 
And it definitely appears to be an original image from the past so that eliminates an inaccurate restoration. 
I just don’t know what to think. 

According to my friend, his 1911 40 hp car was left hand drive..........and he went on to explain the 40’s were LHD in 11, the six sixty were LHD in 12, and the 30 hp cars were LHD in 13..........he has owned gas, steam, and a bunch of White trucks and busses. I do not doubt his 1911 LHD..........

[edinmass]

3 minutes ago, George K said:

Is it this beauty?

No, it’s a touring car.......very funky, small, and looks like a very nice older restoration. It seems to be new to the “White” crowd. 

[13White]

33 minutes ago, edinmass said:

According to my friend, his 1911 40 hp car was left hand drive..........and he went on to explain the 40’s were LHD in 11, the six sixty were LHD in 12, and the 30 hp cars were LHD in 13..........he has owned gas, steam, and a bunch of White trucks and busses. I do not doubt his 1911 LHD..........

Thank you that makes a lot of sense. The mystery car in the eBay photo is a 40hp for sure due to the larger hubs and heavier axle. That would explain the early style lamps, firewall and door handles. Most of my research has been on the 30 hp cars and that information is really good to know. Thanks again!

[13White]

21 hours ago, 13White said:

Well, this photo certainly has me questioning what I know about 1913 White cars. 
it is definitely left hand drive as the script on the radiator is not reversed. But the gas headlights and oil side lamps are earlier more like an 11-12. Also, the external door handle on the rear door is not found on a 1913. The top of the firewall and windshield look earlier like 1911 as well. The steering wheel has 4 spokes, where the earlier cars usually have 3 spokes. The large front hubs look like the larger 40hp car. 
And it definitely appears to be an original image from the past so that eliminates an inaccurate restoration. 
I just don’t know what to think. 

So.... Based on my continuing education, I would think the ebay photo is a 1911 White "forty"  I sure  would like to have it now!

[edinmass]

I found these photos of the car on line........so I think its fair game to post them. My gut feeling was the cars date was 1916 at first look.......And I was correct, confirmed by a White 30 hp expert. It has the progressive transmission in it from what I can see.........and the chassis is very light construction compared to my 1917 GM, and lighter and different from my 1915. It appears to be a very nice car.........

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Ed, I’ve enjoyed the Great White threads for the educational, historical, factual and comic relief. But I’m getting confused as to which Great White is which in your shiver. Can you post a pic of each with the year, hp and any other term you use to describe each one. Remember I’m an old guy so keep it simple so even if I’m into the Canadian stock you prefer I will understand. Thanks. 
dave s  

[nickelroadster]

It is overwhelmingly clear that when Ed gets in to a group of cars he is going to chase things to the end and we will all end up knowing a bunch more things  Don't run out of time Ed.

[edinmass]

34 minutes ago, nickelroadster said:

It is overwhelmingly clear that when Ed gets in to a group of cars he is going to chase things to the end and we will all end up knowing a bunch more things  Don't run out of time Ed.

 

It's the obsessive compulsive disorder that I have...........some of it is good, most of it is not..........😬

[alsfarms]

I think, we in the fraternal group of antique automobile fanatics, are all very much OCD!

Edited March 11, 2022 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[George K]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water. This White shows up. She’s a beaut.

[13White]

13 hours ago, edinmass said:

According to my friend, his 1911 40 hp car was left hand drive..........and he went on to explain the 40’s were LHD in 11, the six sixty were LHD in 12, and the 30 hp cars were LHD in 13..........he has owned gas, steam, and a bunch of White trucks and busses. I do not doubt his 1911 LHD..........

I'd sure like to meet your friend!

[13White]

9 minutes ago, George K said:

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water. This White shows up. She’s a beaut.

While this is an unbelievable town car, I would respectfully say it is not a White 

[George K]

1 hour ago, nickelroadster said:

It is overwhelmingly clear that when Ed gets in to a group of cars he is going to chase things to the end and we will all end up knowing a bunch more things  Don't run out of time Ed.

An old friend Hal Ullrich who with his brother Bill were mechanic’s for D Cameron Peck told me this. The problem with getting old is you thought you knew a lot but the realize you have more to learn and little time to figure it out. He was a cool guy.

 

[George K]

6 minutes ago, 13White said:

While this is an unbelievable town car, I would respectfully say it is not a White 

 

6 minutes ago, 13White said:

While this is an unbelievable town car, I would respectfully say it is not a White 

Your right. Same type of body. Thanks.

[George K]

I meant this one.

[alsfarms]

What is the color called besides "light purple" of the above shown Town Car?

Al

[edinmass]

56 minutes ago, 13White said:

While this is an unbelievable town car, I would respectfully say it is not a White 

 

 

Here is a "white" White Town Car........ ask and you shall receive. 😇

 

This one has history to the White family........

 

Typical "White" two of the same cars......"the same thing but different!"

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

7 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

What is the color called besides "light purple" of the above shown Town Car?

Al

 

 

Obvious name choice for an Edwardian motor car........... "Royal Purple".

[George K]

18 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

 

Here is a "white" White Town Car........ ask and you shall receive. 😇

 

This one has history to the White family........

 

Typical "White" two of the same cars......"the same thing but different!"

 

 

 

 

I want those Locomobile headlights back.

[edinmass]

Here are three poor screen shots of the 1916 White catalog........showing the blue touring car above. It's on a 115 inch chassis........the 45 was on a 130 inch chassis.........the six is on a 150 inch chassis. The White 30 was expensive......and very well built. Basically there were three sizes from about 1911 to 1916 with some gaps......and then in 1917 everything went "large" with the GM series. 

[edinmass]

1 minute ago, George K said:

I want those Locomobile headlights back.

 

I'm fairly certain.......that Loco's stole the lights from White...........😉

[George K]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

 

I'm fairly certain.......that Loco's stole the lights from White...........😉

I would say that car was built out of left over parts at coach builder who was going out of business.😂

[edinmass]

7 minutes ago, George K said:

I would say that car was built out of left over parts at coach builder who was going out of business.😂

 

The important part......it's not floor sweepings! FYI- It has a 16 Valve Four in it, with an earlier casting date than my 15..........🤩

[George K]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

 

The important part......it's not floor sweepings! FYI- It has a 16 Valve Four in it, with an earlier casting date than my 15..........🤩

Oh boy we need to talk. FYI I forgot to say respectfully.

[alsfarms]

What year is the White White town car with the fold back top?  The octagonal Locomobile headlights should be used on the right automobile and a nice set of larger brass G & D lights hung in their place. Is the angular front fenders proper or an after thought?  In my cowboy taste, they don't do much for the overall look.  I am not keene on angular fenders when used on certain Locomobile's either!  I would sure like a ride around the block in that White White....however!

Al

[edinmass]

The white White is a 1915......that belonged to the white family from new till the 50's if memory serves me..........

[LI_BENTLEY]

To a restate an entry I made in the technical forum under 1917 White.  White NEVER, NEVER made a car or truck with a progressive shift pattern.  Unless you say the shifting into reverse is progressive because you get into reverse by shifting into 1st then continue to reverse and have to come beck through 1st to return to neutral.  When in neutral you can select any of the 4 forward speeds without going thru any other gear, so it is a selective transmission.  On a progressive transmission you have 1 neutral and usually go back for 1st then forward thrugh neutral into 2nd then forward into 3rd.  To down shift you return into 2nd then back to neutral just like a foot shifted motorcycle. 

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, LI_BENTLEY said:

To a restate an entry I made in the technical forum under 1917 White.  White NEVER, NEVER made a car or truck with a progressive shift pattern.  Unless you say the shifting into reverse is progressive because you get into reverse by shifting into 1st then continue to reverse and have to come beck through 1st to return to neutral.  When in neutral you can select any of the 4 forward speeds without going thru any other gear, so it is a selective transmission.  On a progressive transmission you have 1 neutral and usually go back for 1st then forward thrugh neutral into 2nd then forward into 3rd.  To down shift you return into 2nd then back to neutral just like a foot shifted motorcycle. 

I happily stand corrected. I can only comment on what I have been told........I have never driven a 30 hp unit. After twenty five years of thinking of them as progressive.....it’s hard to change my ways. 👍

[nickelroadster]

Ed, you just rode too many motorcycles when you were young.

[LI_BENTLEY]

All Whites before  the 16 valve 4 and most trucks after used the same 4 speed transmission the 30, 40, 45, and 60 hp cars and trucks.  The difference was the cars utilize an aluminum case and the trucks had a cast iron case.  Bout cars and trucks used the same clutch.   This is why the cars are so good, hard to break them.

[edinmass]

Its kind of ironic that Bugatti said W O Bentley made the fastest lorries in the world.........across the pond, the 16 valve White meets that definition............although no W O Bentley steers like a truck, and neither do the Whites. I would compare my 1917 16 Valve to a Speed Six. They have a similar feel.......and similar effort to shift them smoothly. Just thinking about my 16 valve makes me want to drive it.........I think it will get some exercise tomorrow morning.......

[13White]

1 hour ago, LI_BENTLEY said:

All Whites before  the 16 valve 4 and most trucks after used the same 4 speed transmission the 30, 40, 45, and 60 hp cars and trucks.  The difference was the cars utilize an aluminum case and the trucks had a cast iron case.  Bout cars and trucks used the same clutch.   This is why the cars are so good, hard to break them.

I agree completely with all of this, but I have to add that although the transmission cases are the same, aluminum and cast iron, the Model 15 3/4 ton trucks have 3rd gear direct, and 4th gear overdrive, the same as the cars.  The 1 1/2 ton model 20 truck transmission looks the same but 4th gear is direct and no overdrive. 

[edinmass]

Phil and I are working on the 15, putting new hoops on the car. It’s going to need a clutch......so we will pull the transmission and clean it up. I’ll be sure to take a bunch of photos. 

[blastermike]

Li Bentley. What can you tell me about my trans thats got an aluminium case 

i was told my truck was originally a 1915 chemical truck, and another thing thats been really puzzling me is the fact the Radiator mounts directly to the top of the frame not the shock type mounts as most other trucks have, all very confusing but maybe a white special or estate truck as mentioned previously, front axle has ornate holes which ive seen before but those trucks have shock mounted rads, appreciate your thoughts

[blastermike]

Forgot to add i know of a r/hand drive white car in Milwaukee  i bought some PA truck parts from the man and we talked about trucks when i mentioned i had a couple of whites he sent me some puctures of his white car he was working on, pictures below.

mike

[edinmass]

Mike.......from some observations, the White’s with the radiators suspended in springs seem to be 1 1/2 ton or heavier. The WWI trucks seem to have no consistent build types..........your truck frame looks much lighter than my 1917 car frame, and much more like my 1915. You said your truck was a chemical truck......I’m guessing then it’s a fire truck. Many Knox chemical trucks were “transportation” units as much as fire fighting units from the ones I have encountered. My two car transmission look nothing like you truck unit. Mine look like a mid 20’s mid line car and are fairly small from what I expected. Your transmission also looks small to my eyes compared to the mid teens units I have worked on in the past. It appears to be half the size of a Pope Hartford or Pierce car unit’s that I have played with. I have only seen a few photos of the front axel with the holes in it.........again, it appears much lighter than my two cars........especially the 1917. Not sure how you determined the date on the truck......could it be earlier and have a newer engine? Was there an “official” swap over date for trucks from RHD to LHD? I’m curious as to the direct/overdrive in 3rd and 4th. Any photos of the steering box? Looks like the truck is going to be a real head turner when done........what are you going to use/build for a body?

Edited March 12, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[nzcarnerd]

19 hours ago, 13White said:

While this is an unbelievable town car, I would respectfully say it is not a White 

It is a Garford.