1934 Pierce Arrow

[32tatra]

 Don't know how you get Face book posting on web site

[classiclines]

Wow - this was difficult to find - this link should work:

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/423645295409730/?ref=category_feed&referral_code=undefined

 

Will try to upload a few pics for ease of reference - no phone number must message on Facebook

[classiclines]

Not mine --- Here are four pics - more on the site - text says:

An absolutely solid car. 90k original miles. Straight Eight cylinder motor. Engine Serial # 305248. Part of my private collection. Running out of room in a 21000 sq foot building so some of my bigger pieces have got to go. Body and frame are great. Chrome is beautiful. Will need interior redone. I have the springs for the seats. It does run!

[edinmass]

That’s a lot of money, for a parts car. Not dumping on it, but it’s just a parts car, with some less than stellar wood replacement........and we know what that means. Caveat Emptor! 

[mike6024]

Joseph Joey James Gajewski, other listings

 

 

[mike6024]

 

1934 PACKARD i8i385 vin# 753278 dated 10/21/33
$30,000

This beautiful PACKARD is from my private collection. I believe it is very important to mention two very interesting facts about this vehicle. It has 2600 ORIGINAL miles! You may ask why are the miles so low? From what we have been able to learn about this vehicle is that it originally belonged to the KELLOGG ESTATE. We have been told that it was used primarily around the estate and driven outside of the estate VERY sparingly. Thus, the condition and LOW miles. If you have more questions or would like to see it in person contact George: [hidden information]. Note: It DOES NOT have an automatic transmission. 

[classiclines]

Not Mine - facebook link - no phone number:

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/702906150393124/?ref=product_details&referral_code=undefined

 

and three more pics - curious for a car with such low miles, why the right front is painted black and the left front is custom-spray blue and primer gray.

[edinmass]

If the Packard only has 2600 miles on it......why does it have a thirty five cent paint job, and a pair of late 50’s mirrors screwed onto the front doors?

[Gearheadengineer]

25 minutes ago, edinmass said:

If the Packard only has 2600 miles on it......why does it have a thirty five cent paint job, and a pair of late 50’s mirrors screwed onto the front doors?

Maybe these guys snuck out to the garage and took it for a spin?

 

 

[rg171352]

"brass edition".

 

5 hours ago, mike6024 said:

Joseph Joey James Gajewski, other listings

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by rg171352 (see edit history)

[BucketofBolts]

The 1934 Pierce Arrow does not appear to me to be in the category of "parts car". The vehicle appears to be complete albeit not put all back together.   

[edinmass]

5 minutes ago, BucketofBolts said:

The 1934 Pierce Arrow does not appear to me to be in the category of "parts car". The vehicle appears to be complete albeit not put all back together.   

 

It’s a parts car............having cut up much better Piece Arrows than this one, and five cars in four years.........I’m certain of it. And.........28k will buy you a nice driving car, ready to tour. The car in the photos is going nowhere for years and tens of thousands of dollars. Look below at my signature line.........

Edited March 11, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[m-mman]

9 minutes ago, BucketofBolts said:

The 1934 Pierce Arrow does not appear to me to be in the category of "parts car". The vehicle appears to be complete albeit not put all back together.   

 

Unlike most other cars, it is not only about the current condition. 

 

In the world of Full Classics (and among independent brands at that) the cost of parts and repairs are significantly more than you would imagine for more normal cars that most people have experience with. 

 

Very little was produced originally (these were low volume cars) Very little is reproduced today (and what has been is more expensive than you would expect, again due to low volume)  Commonly needed items like carbs, distributors and radiators are thousands of dollars each. Distributor caps for Full Classics can easily run $400- $1000 

 

These were the super cars of their era. They were unusual and technologically advanced for their era They were never intended to be owner serviced, so nothing is easy to repair. They aren't Model As or Ford V-8s. They are difficult cars to work on 

 

Because they are "Full Classics" the expectation is that they should be restored perfectly. At the meets and shows where these types of cars gather, you will not get much attention for 'making a good effort' or doing a halfway job. You cannot just do a quick reupholster of that interior. The correct cloth (wool broadcloth?) can be hundreds of dollars a yard and you are talking many, many yards. 

And after spending all the money as above, you still have a 'base model' four door sedan. 

 

Then as Ed mentioned, if you really want one, there are much better examples available for less than it would cost to fix this one. They have been saved/restored since the 1950s. You are probably not familiar with cars like this because unless you are into them, you do not know where to find them. These things rarely come out to casual cruise meets. 

[Grimy]

2 hours ago, m-mman said:

These things rarely come out to casual cruise meets. 

Not so--at least in my case.  Photo was Sunday the 7th at a local (5 mi away) cars-n-coffee.  Note the rat rod (actually, an "art car") next door.  I've driven this 1934 "production" Silver Arrow 17,000 miles since acquiring it 15 years ago.  Would be more miles, but a couple of others need their share of road miles, too.

 

That said, I'm not ready to dismiss the 1934 sedan as a parts car.  I'm seeing normal aged wood in the doors, with perhaps a replacement piece or two--and that's viewing on my large screen.  How my dear friend Eddie finds it so deficient on his phone is beyond me.  Not every car needs to be a contender at a major concours--mine isn't--I have a hell of a lot of fun driving it.  Mine is the only production SA of 12 known that comes out to play frequently.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Grimy
fixed typo (see edit history)

[m-mman]

14 minutes ago, Grimy said:

My is the only production SA of 12 known that comes out to play frequently.

Exactly the point I was trying to make.  

[mike6024]

He's got one of those 1929 MERCEDES BENZ SSK's too. $14,500

[B Jake Moran]

The seller is typical of those trying to unload 4 door sedans of this era. $30,000 please. We seldom.know what they actually sell for or if they sell.  

[edinmass]

George......look close at the half ass wood replacement in the drivers door........the car is falling apart. And certainly the drivers door wood isn’t the only bad wood in the car. Look at my White.......condition for display is obviously not a concern to me........having a sedan with bad wood and doors falling off are a concern. Having done this for almost fifty years, and being familiar with Pierce cars having owned countless numbers of them, and worked on even more...........I know a parts car when I see it. That said.......since so few people are restoring car like this today......it may just end up forever as a space in a garage where it’s never restored, and never turned into parts. I see it all the time. Owners who insist their car is the best thing on the planet......in reality, it’s just a mess on wheels. Supply and demand dictate the market.......not me. Look at the car closely on a large screen.............ad says “absolutely solid car”...........a solid pile of xxxx. Just another dreamer looking for his lotto ticket.

Edited March 12, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

George is the 12 number current......or now minus one with that mess in Minnasoda? Then there is the one in Virginia that is a burn project that would be more than challenging to attempt to save, and the one in the Berkshires that was on the list years ago and now cut up by.............the guys from Indian Orchard.

Edited March 12, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Dave39MD]

[edinmass]

And the missing wood in the rear body tub. Think that door post is the only bad wood? Look at the repair.......not even good enough to call it hack work. Check out the warp in the floor boards that are turning to dust after being water logged for years. Yes! The car is solid..........just like the ad says......check out the hack job on the running boards.........look close at the center door pillar on the drivers side........rusty and pitted......but that didn’t stop them from painting it.......without doing any body work. What do you think is under the rest of the paint? Not dumping on the car........it is what it is, a pile of rusty parts that rolls around. Can’t wait to see the next ad for the car.......”solid California car.........near perfect.”

Edited March 12, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Grimy]

6 hours ago, edinmass said:

George is the 12 number current......or now minus one with that mess in Minnasoda? Then there is the one in Virginia that is a burn project that would be more than challenging to attempt to save, and the one in the Berkshires that was on the list years ago and now cut up by.............the guys from Indian Orchard.

Before I posted that number I re-checked the number of known-to-PAS survivors, against Bernie's 2005 recension tables and the current nearly-complete effort by Dave W. to purge the database and add anything known by PAS even if not claimed by a member.  The count of 12 is all for which PAS has known of even ONE of the three identifying numbers (serial, engine, and body) per car of this period.  The burn project I know of but haven't seen, and the owner has never given me any numbers--and he has not claimed it in PAS records; it's said to have a Seagrave engine.  I don't know of the Minnesota car.  I began checking the survivor count in 2005 and building a spreadsheet while negotiating for mine.  In Bernie's records (begun in 1948, nine years before PAS was founded) there are three no-number anomalies, each once claimed by a short-term member, which can't be correlated to any known owner or car.  Do you have any of the numbers from the car you and John cut up?

 

The car currently being modified for a SEMA show is body Y-7.  That poor thing has been an auction whore (probably offered 20 times or more in the last 20 years) which I examined closely in 2005, as a comp for what became my own car, at both the Springfield IL meet and Hershey that year, while it was being offered by the St. Louis dealer at twice the price he bought it (also at auction).  He wound up losing money when he finally bailed in Feb 2006.  Both times during my examination it ran well and presented very well.  A more recent owner added those god-awful skirts.

[Grimy]

7 hours ago, edinmass said:

George......look close at the half ass wood replacement in the drivers door........the car is falling apart. And certainly the drivers door wood isn’t the only bad wood in the car. Look at my White.......condition for display is obviously not a concern to me........having a sedan with bad wood and doors falling off are a concern. Having done this for almost fifty years, and being familiar with Pierce cars having owned countless numbers of them, and worked on even more...........I know a parts car when I see it. That said.......since so few people are restoring car like this today......it may just end up forever as a space in a garage where it’s never restored, and never turned into parts. I see it all the time.

Wow, did I ever touch a nerve!

 

For those not as familiar with these cars:

 

* floorboards, not marine plywood from the factory, are almost always bad in original cars and are easily replaced.  Question is where the moisture came from and what else was affected in the process.

 

* driver's door leading edge (vertical) of door frame is the most vulnerable wooden structural component.

 

* sill condition is critical, but would have to be examined closely.  Agree that the left door pillar wood is suspect.

 

Without personally examining it, I won't call it a parts car.  That said, from what we see in the photos, the asking price is twice what it should be.

 

Let me address one issue straight up:  Ed and I differ substantially in our estimation of what should be a parts car.  To me, a desirable, low-production car--even with "too many doors"--can and should be saved if possible.  Such cars are far from quick fixes, but individuals with a moderate degree of skill and patience can bring them back.  I think Ed is referring to "professional labor" costs, in which case I'd agree with him.  Not everyone can own a Pebble-quality car, but a project for someone with more patience and skills than dollars can have a happy ending.  Total production of 1934 Pierce-Arrows (4 wheelbases, 3 engines, 19 body styles) was 1,740 units.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Grimy
added a few words (see edit history)

[classiclines]

I learn a lot from dialogue like this - appreciate the wisdom from both perspectives!

[BucketofBolts]

QUERY: Is it better for an unrestored Pierce Arrow to languish unseen in some dusty moist garage wasting away little by little, never to be seen or driven due to the high cost of a concourse restoration?  Or is it more practical to spend a lesser sum of money (at least for those with a limited budget) and attempt an amateur job and place the vehicle on the road to enjoy and be seen albeit not all together an original concourse condition?   I would think any Pierce Arrow owner (especially the ones with superior restorations) would relish seeing a Pierce Arrow (any condition) shown to the public and driven even if the car was not "top notch". Being driven at least gets the name "Pierce Arrow" out there to be seen and appreciated. Moreover, those who can afford to pay for a top quality restoration will be able to have others who may have never been aware of the name of the manufacturer appreciate the owner of a well restored Pierce Arrow vehicle and respect the the owner of that well restored vehicle being aware that not all Pierce Arrows are alike and aware that the less than concourse Pierce Arrow is not in the same league as a well restored concourse Pierce Arrow. 

 

I concede that to do it correct the vehicle that is for sale in this post would be expensive. Yet, to me if a buyer can put together even a less than stellar restoration that type of amateur job would be preferred to parking the vehicle in some hidden garage never to be seen until some heir (of the man that  owned the vehicle) takes possession out of an estate and sells the dusty, rusted, behemoth for cheap only to have the car to be stashed away in some one else's old garage to further deteriorate.  

 

Personally deciding upon placing a Pierce Arrow that needs attention in some barn to deteriorate  and never be restored due to the high cost is a decision that I would prefer not to make.  I would rather see the car made into a Pierce Arrow Restorod or even a Pierce Arrow Ratrod than see it slowly rust away.  Sadly I am too busy with my collection to add another project vehicle to work on.   

[edinmass]

It’s not about overall points or cosmetic condition. A Pierce with 90k on the clock is like a newer Honda with 600k on it. The car is worn out.........look at my White. I’m obviously not obsessed with cosmetic condition. I know Pierce cars.......there is nothing there but some parts.......many beyond service. Just because something is perceived to be rare or special, it doesn’t mean it’s worth saving. I have a 93 point car that’s identical......and you can have it for just a bit more than this car.......and it was sorted in my shop. And it hasn’t been seen in public for 60 years. Ready to go turn key. It will be listed for sale here soon. And it needs NOTHING.

Edited March 13, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Grimy]

Structural wood is EVERYTHING!  Lest @edinmass Eddie think that I think that everything can be saved, here are photos of a Series 80 5-passenger deluxe sedan in the Bay Area that Annie dragged me to see today after she found a plea from the owner's buddy that he's moving in a month and must get rid of it.  Guy has had it 40 years, took it apart to restore.  No title.  There is ZERO structural wood left.  All parts other than the decent steering wheel are inside the car.  Can't find serial number because a plank supporting a 200-lb tub of engine parts is resting on it.  Can't see engine number because the block is inside the car.

 

I offered 3 hrs of my time next week to work with him to pull boxes out, spread out contents for photos, so see if there are any surviving goodies like an *uncracked* cylinder head, correct carb, water pump, instruments, etc.  He was reluctant to expend the energy.  I told him to view the stuffed car as a "bargain box" at a farm auction:  You have to bid without seeing the contents.  If I can't find and photograph goodies, no way will anyone purchase the hulk.

 

This is not a parts car, it's a pile of parts.

 

If any of you guys want to try, PM me and I'll give you his name and phone number.  He doesn't do email.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Grimy
tagged edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Just as the series 80 has almost zero value......the 34 above is in a somewhat similar situation. Not complete, bad wood, ruined by poor restoration attempts, and just so worn out that many parts are just junk. Think it’s easy to make it run and drive? Nope..........ever try and buy a water jacket for a Pierce lately? They have not made them in years........they are impossible to find at almost any price. It’s small details like this that non big car owners fail to understand. The water jacket probably has forty to fifty bolts holding it in. How many are stripped out and need To be repaired. The list of things like this in endless. If your not a good mechanic today, buying a big pre war car that can’t be driven fifty miles before you pay for it is a big risk......more than you can imagine. Hell, recently someone bought a car from a dealer who sold it as turn key perfect...........they have the engine out of it now. His response...........it’s 90 years old.......go shit in your hat. Fact is if you want a good early car, join the single marque club.......get to know the people and cars, and buy one that just finished a five hundred mile tour. More money up front, ten times cheaper in the long run.

[Matt Harwood]

I have to agree with Ed in most regards. It's a noble thing to want to buy a car and get it running, but I have learned the hard way that it is rarely as easy as rebuilding a carburetor and cleaning out a gas tank and some penetrating oil in the cylinders. Need a water pump rebuild? $1000. Generator? $750. Radiator? $2000. Hell, just a gasket set for a car like this is $1500. And that's just the basic stuff that any old car would need. If the wood is bad, what do you do? Fix it? Ignore it? Epoxy it? It could compromise the car enough to make it undriveable and even if it doesn't, do you really want a car whose doors won't close and that shakes and rattles down the road? Then there are the unobtainium parts that Ed mentions--is the carburetor there? Is the cylinder head usable or cracked? Manifolds? Distributor? I suppose with enough ingenuity, you could cobble together a carb from another car, weld up castings, and make the car limp along well enough to crawl to local shows, but is that the Pierce Arrow (or other Full Classic) you want to own? One that is a test of willpower every time you take it out and needs a wish and a prayer to get you home? Even good old cars can test your patience--why go looking for something that's exponentially worse? A car like this isn't a Model A where everything is available with a phone call.

 

So yes, patch it up enough to make it somewhat functional and you have a somewhat functional Pierce. Is that really anyone's end game, especially for $28,000?

[Grimy]

7 hours ago, mike6024 said:

That's funny. It's in the Bay Area? I would have volunteered to help photograph parts. What a shame. Creams wrecking yard would haul it off and give him $100 for scrap value.

Mike, it's in Castro Valley.  Never registered with Pierce-Arrow Society.  I put a friend in Alameda doing a shoestring refurbishment of the only Series 80 I've seen with sidemounted spares onto the case. He's also a longtime Model T guy. He should see it sometime today.

[BucketofBolts]

I am convinced now. A literally meaning of the above posts means that no new full restorations of any Pierce Arrow vehicle will likely be attempted unless the vehicle has some significant historical value or a super desirable model.    What about taking the 1934 Pierce Arrow that was posted for $28,000 and negotiate down to $14,000 and then make it into a hotrod with a modern engine, modern brakes, and modern transmission, and incorporate steel supports in place of missing wood?  Not an original Pierce Arrow but a close appearance to a Pierce Arrow. 

[George Cole]

1 hour ago, BucketofBolts said:

I am convinced now. A literally meaning of the above posts means that no new full restorations of any Pierce Arrow vehicle will likely be attempted unless the vehicle has some significant historical value or a super desirable model.    What about taking the 1934 Pierce Arrow that was posted for $28,000 and negotiate down to $14,000 and then make it into a hotrod with a modern engine, modern brakes, and modern transmission, and incorporate steel supports in place of missing wood?  Not an original Pierce Arrow but a close appearance to a Pierce Arrow. 

You're swatting a hornet's nest...around here that would be worse than parting it out or trying to restore it.

Edited March 13, 2021 by George Cole (see edit history)

[BucketofBolts]

When I swat at a Hornet's nest I usually wear protective clothing and gloves. However, with these last posts it appears that I am attempting to swat at a Hornet's nest while wearing nothing but Borat's yellow banana thong. I would be interested in what happens to that Burgundy colored  1934 Pierce Arrow in 10 years from now. I suspect it will be in the same condition in someone else's garage. 

[edinmass]

12 hours ago, Ben P. said:

Ed, I’m deleting the word ‘big’ and replacing it with the word ‘any’ - printing it out on a card and handing it to anyone who asks about my car (a 12k restored Buick that now has 44k into it [and counting] and will still be a 12k Buick when done).

A case COULD be made for a risk on a T based on the fact T guys start b*tching when their engine rebuilds approach 4K — but something tells me one couldn’t even be done for that today....

3 years in and I haven’t even really driven it yet. The puppy sniffed it out though. He approved.

I love the car

(gratuitous puppy picture⬇️)

 

The only thing big on a small old car are the bills. Love the puppy........three thumbs up for the dog! 👍👍👍

[ericmac]

On 3/13/2021 at 11:50 AM, Ben P. said:

Ask him if a T engine can be rebuilt for 4K or less today - or are a few characters on the mtfca forum just blowing their own horn’s giving the impression they can have it done for that. 🙃

No. I know from experience that a T engine cannot be rebuilt for 4K or less. Those of us who have GOOD Ts and want them right, and we do what everyone else does; we pay what it takes to correctly complete the job. This is not a hobby for tightwads, even if you own and drive a humble T.

Back to the topic at hand, methinks it's either a parts car or a car you REALLY need to love to bring it over the finish line. 

[rg171352]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:05 PM, Grimy said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Excellent use for hose clamps!