The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts

[1912Staver]

Did White make their own compressor ? My Packard truck had a very small compressor mounted on the side of the crankcase to provide gas tank pressure. For the initial starting pressure there was a hand pump on the dash. 

 But a very small , low pressure compressor , strictly a couple of pounds for the tank only.

 

[edinmass]

Yes, it's their own design as far as I can tell......might be from a supplier for some of the items.........they made their own carburetor, transmission, and other components. 

[Dave Henderson]

There were plenty of very cheap good, practical used cars available in prewar 1940, for collectors the Model T dominated.  Running Duesenbergs sold for chump change.  I believe the organizer of the ACDClub once had a $150.00 one.  Few Whites existed then, parts availability nil, hardly anyone just "collected" antique cars then .  Whites weren't even listed in the 1935 Kelley Blue book, which incidentally for example listed a '26 Lincoln Dietrich Brougham and a Sport Touring for $15.  So I believe the White's value would have been commensurate, I'll say $14 just to be the cantankerous low guy.

[1912Staver]

That one is a tire service pump for sure. And not your typical Kellogg , either accessory or factory mounted unit. I am curious about the casting logo on the side. Is that something found on other cast parts on White's, or just the pump?

 The one on my Packard engine was a very simple design. Constant drive off a cam shaft eccentric, and only a couple of pounds pressure.  No need for cooling fins or disengagement provisions.

Edited July 24, 2021 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

I think the hex-shaped design includes the artistic rendering of the letters AR. It wouldn’t surprise me that these are the pattern maker’s initials. So now just find a copy of the Hartford, CT city directory for 1915-1917 and identify a foundry worker or pattern maker with those initials working for Hartford Machine Screw Co. on Capitol Ave.  Or, did they sub it out to another shop?

 

The casting has parting lines that show the pattern was in four or more pieces. It wasn’t just two pieces to fit in a cope and a drag in the foundry as a half-pattern couldn’t be pulled from the sand due to the complex shape. I stared at the compressor body for hours trying to figure ways to split a pattern for sand casting gray iron, couldn’t solve it. Actually, the body may be cast steel. I can 3D print a 1-piece pattern for investment casting but will need to find a foundry willing to make just one via a “lost wax” process. I have a place for casting bronze that way, but not for gray iron or cast steel. 

[edinmass]

It’s interesting that the engine crankcase has its own separate enclosed crankcase for the air pump......so it has a separate oil supply that you service and change the oil just like a miniature crank case. It’s splash lubricated. Gary.......another owner is missing his pump also.......so it’s going to be three for sure so far.........and I still have others to check with. The fitting on the top of the pump were off just a few months ago and should easily come out if you wish to try......you can’t hurt them. I was wondering maybe cast bronze with a sleeve? I still like the idea of metal printing it.........but with at least three needed, that ship has sailed.

[Gary_Ash]

I didn't realize how many parts there were to the compressor and how complicated it is.  If Ed wants to make a few, it's going to be a significant project.  I'll take the original compressor and some of my drawings to my local machine shop guy and see if he can take on machining the castings and making the various small parts.  He can probably tell us if the original casting is cast iron or cast steel.  He's made a lot of parts for me over the last 10 years, so I trust him.  Then I'll send the compressor back to Ed.  I think the modelling is 98% accurate, just a few minor details might be different from the original, but not functionally.  Here are some images from CAD and camera, compare to Ed's photos above:

 

Compressor body machined.

 

 

Compressor actuator arm

Compressor connecting rod - brass or bronze?

 

Piston bottom view - hardened steel, 1.5" o.d.

 

 

Holding spring for actuator arm, 0.040" spring steel

Small parts for air inlet valve.  Valve plate retaining screw, 4-40x3/8, and 1/16" cotter pin not shown.

 

Inlet valve fitting with 3/4-20 extra fine thread

 

Outlet valve fitting.  It uses a spring to push a 3/8" steel ball into a seat, ball raises with increased pressure.

 

Steel ball and spring for outlet valve

 

Rendering of pump half assembled

 

3D printing the compressor body casting pattern in transparent PLA plastic, 11 hours into a 32 hour print job.  Transparent PLA is used because

it has the least amount of other added materials, vaporizes completely during investment casting.

 

 

[JV Puleo]

On 7/24/2021 at 6:00 PM, Gary_Ash said:

The casting has parting lines that show the pattern was in four or more pieces. It wasn’t just two pieces to fit in a cope and a drag in the foundry as a half-pattern couldn’t be pulled from the sand due to the complex shape. I stared at the compressor body for hours trying to figure ways to split a pattern for sand casting gray iron, couldn’t solve it. Actually, the body may be cast steel. I can 3D print a 1-piece pattern for investment casting but will need to find a foundry willing to make just one via a “lost wax” process. I have a place for casting bronze that way, but not for gray iron or cast steel. 

 

Why not make it in bronze and paint it. I've been experimenting with baking enamel paint...and getting a result very much like that. Or, you might want to call this place:

http://cumberlandfoundry.com/

 

I've never used them but I've driven past the place several times - it's quite close to the shop. There is another foundry in my neighborhood as well - again, I've never used them but, if needed, I can check them out.

Edited July 26, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Nothing is ever easy. At least we don’t need to make the crankshaft and gears. Looks like we will be making three or four. It will still be a few days before a count. It never ceases to amaze me how well 3D modeling is when you have the right people helping you. It’s obvious Gary’s talent as a skilled engineer. I had six years of drawing with a T square, and the drawings would have taken me two weeks to do by hand. And I’m certain they would contain mistakes.

[trimacar]

On 7/23/2021 at 11:33 PM, edinmass said:

.I stumbled over the first 1917 White,

 

Well, Ed, you stumbled over the first one because you have a friend who, when presented with the strange and unusual, thinks of you.  So there, put that in your pipe and smoke it!  The 1917 couldn't have found a better home.

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, trimacar said:

 

Well, Ed, you stumbled over the first one because you have a friend who, when presented with the strange and unusual, thinks of you.  So there, put that in your pipe and smoke it!  The 1917 couldn't have found a better home.

 

 

Dave it was probably ten to one that I decided to look into the car further........because YOU said it was interesting. Thus it's YOUR fault I am on this long, strange trip of White Automobiles. It's probably going to get humid in my garage in the future. Read between the lines! 🤭

[Gary_Ash]

After more than 31 hours of printing, the first of the investment casting patterns is done.  Because of the fins and arms that stick out to the side, it's necessary to print a lot of supports that need to be removed after printing, a tedious job, but the supports increase the quality of the surfaces.  I'll bring the pattern and the original to the machine shop today so that Andy can see the before and after versions.  I don't think machining the castings will be a big job but making the parts for the valves will be a little time consuming.  I made the cylinder bore and hole sizes a little smaller than finish machined dimensions.  All the walls are about 0.020" thick with the space between the inside and outside walls filled with about 10% material for reinforcement.  You can see the diamond pattern filler in the photos. This reduces the time to print and the amount of material used.  The pattern weighs only 3 ounces, about $1 of PLA printing material, while the original part weighs about 2.5 lbs.   

 

I saw Ed making noises about four copies now.  How many Whites without tire pumps are left in the world?

 

Casting the compressor body in bronze would be easy as I have a foundry that we've worked with before - they cast Ed's water pump impeller that Joe Puleo machined.  I have a couple of minor concerns about using bronze for the body.  First, the machinability index is only 40 compared to brass, perhaps lower than cast iron or cast carbon steel, but it's really only the cylinder bore that matters.  The thermal coefficient of expansion  of bronze is nearly twice that of cast iron or steel, though in the case of this 1.5" bore compressor, the piston-cylinder gap would only increase about .001" per 100 °F increase in temperature, perhaps too small to worry about.  The piston doesn't have rings, starts with about .001" clearance.  Wear is the other issue.  The bronze will be softer than cast iron or steel, so it may wear faster.  It's easier to replace the piston in the future than the body, but how many hours will the compressor run anyhow?   I don't know what the coefficient of friction is for greasy silicon bronze (C87300 alloy) against hardened steel, but maybe it's no worse than a cast iron-to-steel pair.  Silicon-aluminum bronze alloys (C64200) make good bushings but the foundry doesn't use that one.  In spite of my silly concerns, it would be easier, faster, and cheaper to just cast the compressor body in the same silicon bronze alloy used for making statues and outdoor plaques.  The body gets painted black in any event.   In another hundred years, someone else can worry about the consequences of wear.  Ditto for the connecting rod.

 

Here are photos of the first 3D printed casting pattern.

 

Pattern and compressor, right side.

 

Pattern and compressor, end view.

 

Pattern and compressor, bottom view.

 

[edinmass]

Gary....I'm trying to buy up all the 1917 White 16 Valve cars I can find. I currently own half of the known worlds supply, not counting the three in permanent museum collections. There is a need for three castings, and I though maybe keep one plastic unit as a sample and teaching tool for our museum. I should know in a few days an exact number. Pattern looks fantastic........but then again, all the stuff you build does. 👍

[SC38dls]

Ed, this thread gets better and better with each White you buy. I think you should start negotiating with the museums that have the three on display. They most likely need some work done on them and then the rest of us could enjoy your progress!  
Have fun. 
dave s 

[edinmass]

Dave........there is another White in my future. Only when is the question. No, I’m not blowing steam up anyone’s ass........YET! 🥸

[SC38dls]

Only one!  You need to own the whole fleet! 

[edinmass]

8 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

Only one!  You need to own the whole fleet! 

 

 

Please send your large cash donations to : "The Church of Special Ed." Donations are NOT deductible but all proceeds will be spent on whiskey, women, or pre war cars.......we NEVER waste money here! A much better deal than your other choices!

[Gary_Ash]

I went to see my buddy Andy at his machine shop about 10 minutes from my house.  I asked if he was up for a challenge, but his answer was a sad "No."  His assistant had given two weeks notice, left last Friday.  Andy had spent two years training him to run all the machines in the shop after the previous guy left.  Now his dilemma is that it's hard to find anyone with any experience, and training takes away time from Andy running other machines and making money.  He has more work lined up than he can handle right now.  But, he said, get the castings done and come back, maybe he could squeeze in some time in the fall.  So, I'll ship the originals back to Ed and we'll see about getting the castings done when quantity is settled.  Anyone know a machinist who wants a job in New Bedford, MA?  

 

I can probably get the inlet and exhaust valves done at emachineshop.com as the parts are pretty simple.

[edinmass]

We need four castings.............of the compressor.  👍👍
 

I’ll give you a ring tomorrow.

Edited July 28, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

So, after the loss of the other White Moto Meeter........look what I bought. Thanks to our member here who gave me the heads up............NOS.......not too shabby. 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Gary...Cast bronze bores and threads beautifully. It's more difficult to turn but works well with very sharp HSS tooling. I've my reservations about doing it with carbide, at carbide speeds, but confess I've no experience with that. You are correct in that the expansion rate on something that small is negligible.

[edinmass]

This thread is one year old today......time flies.

[edinmass]

Update.......the two cars I went to look at for AJ the day I picked up the great White, have been sold. So the saga of the road trip continues. They were exceptionally rare cars, one an untouched original, the other what was left after a tragic fire. They were eight cylinder sleeve valve cars.....which now have a new loving home. You can’t get them all. Look at the CCCA Stearns Knight thread to get a glimpse of what they were....

[edinmass]

12 months to the day, and what a long strange trip it’s been. Now I have two 1917 Whites. Never intended to own one.......never mind two. That’s what makes the hobby great. Good cars, fantastic people. The White has been one of the best car adventures I have ever undertaken.......and believe me, I have had my hands in more stuff than anyone can imagine. The White story is only just beginning..........I expect much more mechanical challenges with the new car, and am still fishing for number three...........one never knows when it will happen. Since I have two great cars I own that I have never seen in person.........I’m going to try restraint and land the next one after the other two are finished and sorted........time frame? Probably mid summer next year. If things work out, we will be one decade older than the current saga......cross your fingers and hope. As for number three......they always pop up when money is tight, time is short, and life is busy. Lesson learned long ago........buy it while you can, good cars come along once in a decade if your lucky. Here’s to number three.......👍

Edited August 1, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

For some reason I hadn't looked at the pictures of Gary's finished pattern. Actually, it does not look like a difficult machining job - much simpler than I imagined. The bore would be critical but judging from the quality of the casting we used on the water pump, relatively little metal would have to be removed. The fellow I use to grind special end mills can grind one so that, when plunge milling, the result is as accurate as a reamed hole. I think that would be the way to go, especially if making 4 of them. It would assure uniformity. Could you use a commercially available compressor piston? If so, the hole could be bored to match it.

 

Aside from that, it's just simple drilling and threading.

[edinmass]

On 8/22/2020 at 5:22 PM, edinmass said:

Interestingly, I have been working so much on the car, I haven’t had a chance to get familiar with it.........found this today........never noticed it before, on the drivers side rear door.......just continues to get better and better...........it’s severely faded.....I thing I shall duplicate it with my initial......M. The only cosmetic improvement I intend to make.........

 

See the above photo from a year ago. The original owners initial was painted on both rear doors. Well, time, paperwork, and some luck......and toss in a shxx load of hard work. I can now give you the name, address, and background information on the 1917 White’s original owner. I must admit, when I got the last name figured out.......I had a smile on my face. His name was Finger...............so, with all the time and effort looking into his history it felt like he was giving me the finger. A.C. Finger of Far Rockaway New York. It’s on the ocean in Long Island. Not too far from where I have purchased two cars...........and both of those are interesting stories not yet told. I have the history of my car from day one.......to today. Every owner, every garage, every barn has been documented. It’s been a great adventure so far.......with more to come.

Edited August 1, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Ed, all of this information along with your documentation of the work you and Phil have put into sorting the Great White would make for a very interesting story. You should get Walt (as he is a great story teller)  to sit down with you as I’m sure between the two of you it could get done. 

[edinmass]

On 8/1/2021 at 9:04 AM, SC38DLS said:

Ed, all of this information along with your documentation of the work you and Phil have put into sorting the Great White would make for a very interesting story. You should get Walt (as he is a great story teller)  to sit down with you as I’m sure between the two of you it could get done. 

 

We will probably make a small bound book on the car. We make them for every car in the collection I manage. They are lots of work, but fun, and guarantee that the history discover will never be lost. 
 

Off to Pebble........truck is loaded, car on the way. Looking forward to seeing some of our forum friends there. We will be driving the RED Model J ......you can’t miss it. We will be in the Best of Show reunion class. 👍

Edited August 5, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Grimy]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

Looking forward to seeing some of our forum friends there.

I'll see you there, Ed.  I'll be spending Friday and Saturday doing grunt work to clean up two local friends' cars being shown.

[edinmass]

23 minutes ago, Grimy said:

I'll see you there, Ed.  I'll be spending Friday and Saturday doing grunt work to clean up two local friends' cars being shown.

I’ll be in the truck lot most of the time. If your around, give me a ring.

[Walt G]

Hope all of you who are attending PB have a good time and good weather. Great cars, but just not my kind of event.

My sincere thanks to all for this thread - I especially enjoy the commentary about how to do the creation of the air compressor - serious computer use and programs etc. is just beyond my interest to devote time to  , yes I could learn but at my state in life currently I am more comfortable looking in period literature, periodicals, programs, images, albums that are all 80+ years old which fortunately I have here at my finger tips. All the stories there waiting to be told as the right mix of information is sorted out.

My sincerest thanks to Ed, Joe, Gary and countless others who have the savvy to negotiate a computer and their programs, I am indeed a dinosaur when it comes to that by comparison.  I am most comfortable behind the keys of an Underwood typewriter ( which was a gift from my good friend Tim in Vt. that I had serviced in Manhattan a decade + ago) , or writing with a pen, with a nib that gets filled with ink from a bottle.

[SC38dls]

Have a great trip. Sorry I can’t be there to provide a “Woodford”refreshment but maybe the UPS man will show up!😳

dave s 

[Grimy]

6 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I’ll be in the truck lot most of the time. If your around, give me a ring.

Will do!

[wayne sheldon]

Travel well and safe! I wish I could go, in spite of the fact that such upscale shows have never really been my forte. Not in the cards this year, again. I do like the big shows occasionally.

[Terry Harper]

11 hours ago, edinmass said:

Off to Pebble........truck is loaded, car on the way.

 

Good luck Ed! And above all have fun.

[Terry Harper]

6 hours ago, Walt G said:

I am most comfortable behind the keys of an Underwood typewriter

Funny you should mention that. Our daughter is Autistic. One of here prized possessions is an old manual typewriter. When she gets frustrated (such as when a Halloween party got canceled or some other grave injustice) its very common to hear her furiously rapping out a response or rebuttal - usually in the form of a legal argument. However, for her creative writing (about 300 words per day.... everyday) she uses her I-pad. I think the mechanical feel of the keys and the satisfying rap and clack is therapeutic for her.

[Larry Schramm]

On 7/18/2021 at 6:59 PM, Grimy said:

Note no sidemounts, only rear-mounted spares.  From the background, I'll guess that the location is an Army post in the DC area--note what looks like a local license plate AND an Army number.  May have been fitted with sidemounted spares before being shipped overseas--see the photos of the car from the Bacon Collection recently posted.  It is said (I can't prove) that two of these cars were built.

 

Notice that the spare tires are mounted on the rear of the car.

 

On 7/18/2021 at 6:44 PM, edinmass said:

Here is a off subject photo, but too good not to share. General Pershing’s car.

 

[Grimy]

1 hour ago, Larry Schramm said:

Notice that the spare tires are mounted on the rear of the car.

I thought that was what I said, Larry.  The apparently only survivor of the two reportedly built is in a NV collection -- and occasionally run on the Modoc Tour -- with two rear-mounted spares as seen here, PLUS a pair of sidemounted spares, for a total of FOUR spare wheels and tires.  Earlier in this thread was a photo of one of these cars overseas with all four spares, two at the rear and two in sidemount position.

[edinmass]

John and I are out in Califunny and had an opportunity to visit with Grimy....aka George. It’s been since 2006 that I visited him at his home......although we often see each other at PAS meets around the country. Got to kick a bunch of tires.......our first collection visit on this trip. I expect we will see many more. I have been  up for 20 hours.....off to bed.

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Grimy]

Ed, what a pleasant surprise to see you and John!  Thanks for stopping by--wish you had more time.  You guys must have flown low to get to LaLaLand AKA The Land of the Lotus-Eaters so quickly.