padgett Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 "give the hub parallel sides about 1/4" thick, rather than that tapered shape," thought the reason for tapered splines was to make the die release easier in production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 If that is a requirement why not make the bottom 3/8 and the top 1/4. Strength and tapper! The strength should increase with the splines being a little thicker and should not adversely affect the operation would it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 Well.......digging in deep on the White now..........we had a front end issue that early on we thought was a wheel bearing. Further investigation proved it to be a king pin. We took it apart tonight, and found some interesting things that I have never come across before. Unusual solid axel design that doesn’t have a kingpin........also, here is a photo of the front wheel.........anyone ever see anything like this on a car. Some kind of roll pin pounded in the back side of the hub acting as a bearing retainer. Photos of the spindle tomorrow. Best, Ed. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wetherbee Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 Better hurry up, winter is coming! This picture was part of a lot on eBay with a very obscene starting price, but it made me think of you for some reason... 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 Mark.......that’s a 1916 White 4-45. Very nice car. Shorter wheelbase than my 17, and a factory body. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wetherbee Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 All I could see is that it was a White that’s covered with more white, but the entire make is obscure enough that I couldn’t tell anything other than that, I’m impressed you did in les than two minutes... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickelroadster Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 (edited) Ed don't worry about winter. That is when it gets nice where he lives. The back of that bearing retainer looks like it has been grinding on something. Should there really be all those striations on it? It looks like the tapered axle may be a little worn. The backing plate that retains the bearing is actually somewhat similar to my Olds Weston-Mott setup. For years I had to put .1 shims between the axle and the hub because the wheels would go too far in on the axle and the brake hubs would start to cut into the wheels. This was finally solved when they became so bad that I had to make new axles. Edited December 12, 2020 by nickelroadster spelling (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 Dave.....all is well with the spindle, and bearings. I will post photos tomorrow of the funky spindle, and the problem in the front end. Best part is it’s an easy fix.............parts are available over the counter.......not bad for a 104 year old fancy car. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, edinmass said: Well.......digging in deep on the White now..........we had a front end issue that early on we thought was a wheel bearing. Further investigation proved it to be a king pin. We took it apart tonight, and found some interesting things that I have never come across before. Unusual solid axel design that doesn’t have a kingpin........also, here is a photo of the front wheel.........anyone ever see anything like this on a car. Some kind of roll pin pounded in the back side of the hub acting as a bearing retainer. Photos of the spindle tomorrow. Best, Ed. It looks like the retainer is a disk that threads into the hub. Then the pins are driven in to prevent the disk from unscrewing. I have a pair of front hubs for a G or GA White and they have a somewhat similar set up. Greg Edited December 12, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 Strange.......turns out it's a sideways cotter pin. With 104 years of grease and grime, you couldn't see any of the pin halves. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 On the initial check out of the car, we thought we had a bad right front wheel bearing. Closer inspection determined it was a king pin flopping around.....quite a bit. My guess is this is what took the car out of service in 1942. Knowing now we had a good car.......make that great car, Phil and I decided to tear into it to finish everything so we could take it on the AACA and HCCA tours coming up in Florida. Wheel bearings are standerd metric sizes as one would expect. Available over the counter for 12 bucks each...........makes a Pierce Arrow wheel bearing look ridiculously expensive........which it is. The wheels needed a puller to get off the car........and it's the size of something you would use on a five ton truck. Had a custom puller made by a member here who is 85 years old, very sharp, and still working in the shop with the machines. I recommend him 100 percent. Made a fantastic puller, works every time, and definitely the only way to get the wheels off without causing damage. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 (edited) I must admit......I wasn't looking forward to making king pins.......they are extreamly complicated on White trucks as I had seen a print for one a few months ago........just like the water pump shaft with a one off gear.........White never did anything easy. After getting the wheel off, it was time to attack the spindle. I don't have much for the way of Pullers and no press here, so I was expecting problems across the board just getting it apart to get new pins made. After spending half an hour to figure out how to get the spindle apart........SURPRISE.....no king pin. Actually what we did find was a very well made spindle that was very easily serviced. It uses off the shelf replacement bushings available today for about 15 dollars each.................WOW......and "easy" fix, compared to what we were expecting. Photos will work better than words............the spindle must have cost a small fortune to manufacture and machine. The lower pin has a steel bushing on it, and it fits into the lower nut that has a bronze bushing ......all easy to service.......I felt like I hit the lottery. Edited December 13, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 WE have new headlights and tail lights going on it this week. Rear tail and stop lights are quick on/off and disconnect LED Model T units from 1919. Since the car is 12 volts.......makes the entire set up easy to do with all off the shelf components. The front headlights are 1922 Chevy units, on their own light bar, that go on and off in under a minute, with a quick disconnect also. We bought new reflectors and halagon bulbs..........so no we will have great lighting for using the car at night.....which here in Florida is a reality of driving cars. All the lights come on automatically if the car is running without using a switch. I will probably leave the rear lights on the car 99 percent of the time for safety......with no brake lights and one small running light from the factory, I keep thinking someone is going to hit me in the rear every time I drive the car. Mechanically the car has been a god send under the hood........it starts and runs effortlessly.....we will set the timing this week by a light.......I like the factory White barrel valve carb so much I'm not going to try the Zenith until after I tour with the car a bit. When the lights are finally finished and painted to march the car, I will post some photos. We are changing the oil for the third time.......going from 5-30 to 40-70. We will also flush the trans and rear end one last time. I will get tires on order Monday morning. A few weeks and the "Great White" will be done and on the road for years before it needs any service. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 More fantastic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 Don’t you love great engineering! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 "don't have much for the way of Pullers and no press here" - 2497 Okeechobee Blvd West Palm Beach, FL 33409. Have one of their 12 ton presses, couldn't justify a 20. Does everything I need. Did need a special puller to remove the arm from a Saginaw power steering. Amazon came through for that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 Those are unusual spindles for sure ! Is the part where the bushings ride a separate pin or is it all one piece ? If one piece it does look like a complicated thing to make. Your friend makes nice hub pullers !. Greg Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 (edited) The upper pin holds the bearing races in place. The entire thing was a jig saw puzzle.......it only comes apart one way, in order.......and there isn’t enough clearance to get it out unless every component is in the exact correct position. Amazingly the condition of everything except the two lower bushings are perfect. It came apart like it was assembled yesterday........the taper holding in the steering link popped off like it was put on the day before. Cleaning the 104 year old grease and dirt are the worst part of the job. How the machined the spindle Is beyond me. I would have liked to see the equipment and jig to keep this all square and on center. Edited December 12, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walt G Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 This continues to be so very interesting to read , especially now in the health crisis when most of us can't work on our cars nor have a place to take parts to be fixed etc because of all the restrictions. Ed it is also wonderful how you explain things to make it reasonably easy to understand the process , the documentation is absolutely great. Thank you for taking the time to do this for us. Walt 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 13, 2020 Author Share Posted December 13, 2020 (edited) Thanks Walt. So far the White has been a lot of work, but no terrible problems. Joe making the gear and shaft for the water pump is a benefit beyond words.......experience has taught me that most shops just wont take the time to figure things out correctly.........every year I hear horror stories about shops losing parts, doing poor workmanship, and sending out inferior or useless parts. I’m very fortunate that Joe and Gary are so knowledgeable and willing to help. When one has a special skill set it’s fun to share it with other craftsmen that appreciate your skill set. Gary’s engineering background based in “hand on design”and real world fabrication is an unusual skill set today. Joe taking on a helical gear because he finds it an interesting challenge is also terrific. I will be happy to return any favor they need that I can help with. Welding and fabrication have never been my strong suits. Casting was learned and mostly forgotten from thirty five years ago. What I did produce successfully back then was with lots of help of old time pattern makers and foundry men. Finding a foundry willing to work with fussy patterns, or difficult pours that are hard to pack are nearly impossible today. Edited December 13, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J3Studio Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 (edited) A spectacular thread—with amazing progress (and a few things that are unexpectedly easy). This is why I enjoy this forum. Edited December 13, 2020 by J3Studio (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickelroadster Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Ed, Those spindle bushings are the cat's pajamas! I am still wondering why the screw in bearing retainer (Probably a better name for it) is all scored up on the back side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Back in the day amazing things could be done with a rough forging and an expert machinist with a precision thread cutting lathe, a big mill with the right attachments,, and a broaching tool. Was not fast but could be very precise. Guess mostly a lost art now but requires a certain way of thinking about the design of a part. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J3Studio Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, padgett said: … requires a certain way of thinking about the design of a part. Agreed. I believe it's somewhat of the same set of skills that enable some folks to create great three-dimensional models on computers. Spatial relations is what I call it. Edited December 13, 2020 by J3Studio (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 (edited) We have both spindles off the car. We knew the passenger side had problems. When we got the drivers side apart it too was not where it needed to be. New inner and outer wheel bearings have been sourced. The new bushings have been ordered and arrive tomorrow. Not too bad ordering new off the shelf front end parts for a 104 year old car. We have pulled the grease fittings for the shackle pins and have cleaned them out and will flush the pins with new grease tomorrow. That only leaves the drag links and tie rod ends in the front end yet to be done. When finished the entire steering system will have been gone through........sound familiar? You simply can not “spot fix” a front end on a car. You need to do EVERY part. We also plan to service the springs....all 20 of them on each corner. The car rode well and steered extremely easy.......it should be much better when we are done with it. I also replaced all the ball bearings in the upper king pin thrust bearings......it takes 22 balls and I bought fifty American made replacements for 16 dollars. None of the bearings were bad, and all could have been reused, total replacement cost for the front end parts was under 150 bucks........so inexpensive that it doesn’t make sense not to change everything out............should last another 104 years without issue. Edited December 16, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 (edited) The light project is in progress.......new tail lights arrived today. Brackets will be fabricated and installed tomorrow. With the 12 volt two wire system it makes things much easier to deal with. We are making two new partial wiring harnesses for the car. One to the rear from the battery box to the new tail lights, stop lights, and electric fuel pump. I would usually never run a electric pump on a car with a vacuum tank......but since the installation was started in 1951 and the fuel limes had been cut, and the frame had been drilled for the pump, I figured we would go from where we were at. It’s being done safely. You can’t use the pump while driving the car. You must shut it off, remove the battery cover, and with the engine off you can prime the system. Since the first time I started the car, the Stewart Warner vacuum tank has operated flawlessly. Still using all its 100 year old springs, flapper, and float. Only the top gasket is new. The new tail lights and stop lights will always be “on and working” whenever the car is running.......safety first. The headlights if installed on the car will also operate the same way.....whenever the car is running, the new halogen lights will be on also. It’s all coming together well. We were planning to take the car on a mystery ride Friday night with a bunch of modern “super GT cars” but I don’t think we will be finished for another week at the soonest. Looks like we will take the 1929 Stearns Knight Brunn instead. It’s probably been sixty years since it has been driven using the lights while going down the road. We will post photos Saturday. Edited December 16, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickelroadster Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Ed, everyone should be a little jealous about the ease at which you fixed your front end. It is too bad that other manufacturers did not imitate this setup. I am still a little curious about how the bearing retainers ended up with the wear on the backside. Does there seem to be a way to set that retainer at just the right place? It seems that you have a choice of moving a quarter turn at a time. Is there a picture of the outer bearing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J3Studio Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, edinmass said: We have both spindles off the car. We knew the passenger side had problems. When we got the drivers side apart it too was not where it needed to be. New inner and outer wheel bearings have been sourced. The new bushings have been ordered and arrive tomorrow. Not too bad ordering new off the shelf front end parts for a 104 year old car. Agreed. I think this has been one of the most amazing things in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, nickelroadster said: Ed, everyone should be a little jealous about the ease at which you fixed your front end. It is too bad that other manufacturers did not imitate this setup. I am still a little curious about how the bearing retainers ended up with the wear on the backside. Does there seem to be a way to set that retainer at just the right place? It seems that you have a choice of moving a quarter turn at a time. Is there a picture of the outer bearing? I will take photos and post a detailed answer tomorrow! 👍 FYI- Dave came down a few weeks ago and drove the car. He can attest how easy it steered, and the bit of wobble/vibration in the right front from the bad bushing between 25-35 mph. After that, it went away......... Edited December 16, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickelroadster Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 Ed, Some of us are still waiting for your post. I understand that you got sidetracked with batteries for the truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 19, 2020 Author Share Posted December 19, 2020 Sorry Dave, got sidetracked by a “pick up car tour” around the area tonight. I’ll post tomorrow morning after the Merlot wears off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickelroadster Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 No problem Ed, We all know the struggles you have had working outside in the inclement weather . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 20, 2020 Author Share Posted December 20, 2020 (edited) The new bushings are installed into the lower spindle nut housing, and everything went fine. The total parts cost for rebuilding the front end was less than fifty dollars..........hows that for off the shelf parts on a pre WWI car? The most difficult part of the job was cleaning everything........104 year old dirt is as hard as concrete........and the parts took a stiff brush cleaning in the tank five times total to get them clean enough to be reassembled. Tail light brackets are fabricated and temporarily installed, as are the new front easy on/easy off headlights. Ran into a curve ball with the bulbs and I should get that sorted shortly. One of the headlight lenses was a home made replacement......so now I need to find another......sometimes the BS never ends. Drew up a wiring harness for the lights and fuel pump. Also began fabrication of the stop light switch.......all of this stuff is hidden and made with correct 1917 era materials. We drained the oil for the third or fourth time, and dropped the small oil pan clean out and screen. Everything looked good. I installed some magnets to the oil pan cover that is removed each time the screen is cleaned.....if we get any metal in the pan it will stick to the magnets. Only two large items left unaddressed mechanically is the rear brakes and wheel bearings, and a new set of tires. With the holidays and friends and family showing up, things will slow down for a few weeks. Plan is to have the car entirely done by January 2021. We will be tour ready for years to come. Photo below of the spindle and new bushings installed. Edited December 20, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 21, 2020 Author Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) Good evening yesterday........we put the White front end back together. It took about three hours to get it apart. It took another two hours finding bushings and bearings. Cleaning took about 8 hours........and that's NOT paint prep........just getting the concrete like dirt and grease off of everything. Each side went togeather in less than 15 minutes.......the front end is that easy to work on. Everything is tight.......no more flopping or wobble while driving ..............we didn't actually drive it today.....but I'm certain its better than new. The lights are still progressing, and we installed the brake light switch also. Fabricating things in a shop that isn't set up for iron working makes things go slow. Every modification is bolt on with no drilling and everything can be removed in just minutes. The car still continues to impress as as we service it and learn new construction details. Here are a few photos of the front end.......Best, Ed. Edited December 21, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Wow, taper and a Woodruff key. They weren't taking any chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 21, 2020 Author Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, padgett said: Wow, taper and a Woodruff key. They weren't taking any chances. Nope....overbuilt. Came apart easy....I was stunned. Notice the leather boots over every joint and linkage ..........all 104 years old. There must be fifty of them on the car...........Trimacar is gonna be busy when we get to them. Edited December 22, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 It is a good thing retired David Coco likes you! Or am I speaking out of turn here? I was admiring that leather boot when I first looked at the photo. I was wondering how many of those that car had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 22, 2020 Author Share Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) Dave and I go a long way back........we get along just fine. Two old school guys who see most things the same way. 👍 There are literally fifty leather boots........but I think Dave will only have to make me two for the driveshaft. They have been removed, and are in great condition.....except stiff from 104 years of sitting on the shaft. They shrunk quite a bit and they are very large. The smaller ones have not suffered too badly. Edited December 22, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 22, 2020 Author Share Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) Here is a page from the owners manual.........good detail, and the list of parts is also interesting to use while looking at the blow up. Interesting to see the book shows grease cups in the entire front end, while the car actually has grease fittings. Edited December 22, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickelroadster Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 Over and over we get reminded that the engineers paid not the slightest attention to anyone in accounting. They just did what they bloody well felt like! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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