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The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts


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9 hours ago, Walt G said:

SO if this is the final discussion about the White Saga then I can stop looking for anything on White cars and go back to focus on finding things about my own cars - ok, done, but hey I was reading a issue of Motor Life magazine from April 1917 this morning ( doesn't everyone(?) have a unread copy of that or Motor Print laying around?) And wouldn't you know it , more White stuff - no not snow ! ( A.J. I knew you were thinking along that line 😲) but there was a article on "Harmonizing Headlamps" ( no I didn't make that up) and here is what was shown...................

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A "White" White

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Well........Phil and I got back on the White service wise. The initial sorting is over.......now to the very fine tuning, where you get hours of work for little or no results. Anyway, pulled the water pump so we can trial fit the prototype water pump gear and shaft. While doing so, another issue popped up......it wasn’t pleasant. Now we will cast new impellers.......with help for lots of great people on this site. Here is what we are dealing with. Also, the shaft was not leaking....but the temporary repair had begun to fail............

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Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Yes Ed I feel your pain in the pump! My 1925 Buicks have suffered the same need as to having new impellors cast.

DSCF7249.thumb.JPG.8da7c5ea0c48222b25fdc4ccada5512e.JPG What was left of my 1925 Standard Impellor.

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Vanes torn off of the spare pump for the 1925 Master.

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Machining the new brass replacement.

 

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I agree...that's beyond repair. Quite a lot of the deterioration is attributable to the poor alloy they used. Of course, they used the best that was available but aluminum metallurgy was in it's infancy then although the automotive world was in love with it. Around 1917-1918 Alcoa hired Laurence Pomeroy, ex chief engineer at Vauxhall, to develop automotive aluminum alloys. He wrote a number of papers for the SAE on the value of reducing reciprocating weight and I suspect had much to do with the creation of Lynnite, the aluminum alloy used in connecting rods and pistons, but that doesn't come about for ten years after Ed's White was built.

 

When you make the pattern for the new one I suggest you give the hub parallel sides about 1/4" thick, rather than that tapered shape, so it can be retained with a couple of set screws rather than the pin. When that was made it's very likely that the pin hole was drilled through both parts at the same time...lining up the two holes, if the parts were drilled separately, is nearly to impossible.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Thanks for the heads up. I will give the information to the gentlemen who is helping me with the pattern. Especially since I will end up sending you the rough casting.........of thats ok.🤔

 

Its been years since I have done any casting, and all my usual sources are dead, blind, or no longer working. 

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I'll post a picture of the pattern I made for my impeller. Except that the blades are straight (which would increase the water pressure) it looks much the same. And yes, it's ok....probably a good idea too!

 

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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"give the hub parallel sides about 1/4" thick, rather than that tapered shape," thought the reason for tapered splines was to make the die release easier in production.

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If that is a requirement why not make the bottom 3/8 and the top 1/4. Strength and tapper! The strength should increase with the splines being a little thicker and should not adversely affect the operation would it? 

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Well.......digging in deep on the White now..........we had a front end issue that early on we thought was a wheel bearing. Further investigation proved it to be a king pin. We took it apart tonight, and found some interesting things that I have never come across before. Unusual solid axel design that doesn’t have a kingpin........also, here is a photo of the front wheel.........anyone ever see anything like this on a car. Some kind of roll pin pounded in the back side of the hub acting as a bearing retainer. Photos of the spindle tomorrow. Best, Ed.

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Ed don't worry about winter.  That is when it gets nice where he lives.  The back of that bearing retainer looks like it has been grinding on something.  Should there really be all those striations on it?  It looks like the tapered axle may be a little worn.  The backing plate that retains the bearing is actually somewhat similar to my Olds Weston-Mott setup.  For years I had to put .1 shims between the axle and the hub because the wheels would go too far in on the axle and the brake hubs would start to cut into the wheels.  This was finally solved when they became so bad that I had to make new axles.

Edited by nickelroadster
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Dave.....all is well with the spindle, and bearings. I will post photos tomorrow of the funky spindle, and the problem in the front end. Best part is it’s an easy fix.............parts are available over the counter.......not bad for a 104 year old fancy car.

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5 hours ago, edinmass said:

Well.......digging in deep on the White now..........we had a front end issue that early on we thought was a wheel bearing. Further investigation proved it to be a king pin. We took it apart tonight, and found some interesting things that I have never come across before. Unusual solid axel design that doesn’t have a kingpin........also, here is a photo of the front wheel.........anyone ever see anything like this on a car. Some kind of roll pin pounded in the back side of the hub acting as a bearing retainer. Photos of the spindle tomorrow. Best, Ed.

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It looks like the retainer is a disk that threads into the hub. Then the pins are driven in to prevent the disk from unscrewing.

I have a pair of front hubs for a G or GA White and they have a somewhat similar set up.

Greg

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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On the initial check out of the car, we thought we had a bad right front wheel bearing. Closer inspection determined it was a king pin flopping around.....quite a bit. My guess is this is what took the car out of service in 1942. Knowing now we had a good car.......make that great car, Phil and I decided to tear into it to finish everything so we could take it on the AACA and HCCA tours coming up in Florida. Wheel bearings are standerd metric sizes as one would expect. Available over the counter for 12 bucks each...........makes a Pierce Arrow wheel bearing look ridiculously expensive........which it is. The wheels needed a puller to get off the car........and it's the size of something you would use on a five ton truck. Had a custom puller made by a member here who is 85 years old, very sharp, and still working in the shop with the machines. I recommend him 100 percent. Made a fantastic puller, works every time, and definitely the only way to get the wheels off without causing damage. 

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I must admit......I wasn't looking forward to making king pins.......they are extreamly complicated on White trucks as I had seen a print for one a few months ago........just like the water pump shaft with a one off gear.........White never did anything easy. After getting the wheel off, it was time to attack the spindle. I don't have much for the way of Pullers and no press here, so I was expecting problems across the board just getting it apart to get new pins made. After spending half an hour to figure out how to get the spindle apart........SURPRISE.....no king pin. Actually what we did find was a very well made spindle that was very easily serviced. It uses off the shelf replacement bushings available today for about 15 dollars each.................WOW......and "easy" fix, compared to what we were expecting. Photos will work better than words............the spindle must have cost a small fortune to manufacture and machine. The lower pin has a steel bushing on it, and it fits into the lower nut that has a bronze bushing ......all easy to service.......I felt like I hit the lottery. 

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Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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WE have new headlights and tail lights going on it this week. Rear tail and stop lights are quick on/off and disconnect LED Model T units from 1919. Since the car is 12 volts.......makes the entire set up easy to do with all off the shelf components. The front headlights are 1922 Chevy units, on their own light bar, that go on and off in under a minute, with a quick disconnect also. We bought new reflectors and halagon bulbs..........so no we will have great lighting for using the car at night.....which here in Florida is a reality of driving cars. All the lights come on automatically if the car is running without using a switch. I will probably leave the rear lights on the car 99 percent of the time for safety......with no brake lights and one small running light from the factory, I keep thinking someone is going to hit me in the rear every time I drive the car. Mechanically the car has been a god send under the hood........it starts and runs effortlessly.....we will set the timing this week by a light.......I like the factory White barrel valve carb so much I'm not going to try the Zenith until after I tour with the car a bit. When the lights are finally finished and painted to march the car, I will post some photos. We are changing the oil for the third time.......going from 5-30 to 40-70. We will also flush the trans and rear end one last time. I will get tires on order Monday morning. A few weeks and the "Great White" will be done and on the road for years before it needs any service. 

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"don't have much for the way of Pullers and no press here" - 2497 Okeechobee Blvd West Palm Beach, FL 33409. Have one of their 12 ton presses, couldn't justify a 20. Does everything I need. Did need a special puller to remove the arm from a Saginaw power steering. Amazon came through for that.

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The upper pin holds the bearing races in place. The entire thing was a jig saw puzzle.......it only comes apart one way, in order.......and there isn’t enough clearance to get it out unless every component is in the exact correct position. Amazingly the condition of everything except the two lower bushings are perfect. It came apart like it was assembled yesterday........the taper holding in the steering link popped off like it was put on the day before. Cleaning the 104 year old grease and dirt are the worst part of the job. How the machined the spindle Is beyond me. I would have liked to see the equipment and jig to keep this all square and on center. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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This continues to be so very interesting to read , especially now in the health crisis when most of us can't work on our cars nor have a place to take parts to be fixed etc because of all the restrictions. Ed it is also wonderful how you explain things to make it reasonably easy to understand the process , the documentation is absolutely great. Thank you for taking the time to do this for us.

Walt

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Thanks Walt. So far the White has been a lot of work, but no terrible problems. Joe making the gear and shaft for the water pump is a benefit beyond words.......experience has taught me that most shops just wont take the time to figure things out correctly.........every year I hear horror stories about shops losing parts, doing poor workmanship, and sending out inferior or useless parts. I’m very fortunate that Joe and Gary are so knowledgeable and willing to help. When one has a special skill set it’s fun to share it with other craftsmen that appreciate your skill set. Gary’s engineering background based in “hand on design”and real world fabrication  is an unusual skill set today. Joe taking on a helical gear because he finds it an interesting challenge is also terrific. I will be happy to return any favor they need that I can help with. Welding and fabrication have never been my strong suits. Casting was learned and mostly forgotten from thirty five years ago. What I did produce successfully back then was with lots of help of old time pattern makers and foundry men. Finding a foundry willing to work with fussy patterns, or difficult pours that are hard to pack are nearly impossible today. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Back in the day amazing things could be done with a rough forging and an expert machinist with a precision thread cutting lathe, a big mill with the right attachments,, and a broaching tool. Was not fast but could be very precise. Guess mostly a lost art now but requires a certain way of thinking about the design of a part.

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5 minutes ago, padgett said:

… requires a certain way of thinking about the design of a part.

 

Agreed. I believe it's somewhat of the same set of skills that enable some folks to create great three-dimensional models on computers. Spatial relations is what I call it.

Edited by J3Studio (see edit history)
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We have both spindles off the car. We knew the passenger side had problems. When we got the drivers side apart it too was not where it needed to be. New inner and outer wheel bearings have been sourced. The new bushings have been ordered and arrive tomorrow. Not too bad ordering new off the shelf front end parts for a 104 year old car. We have pulled the grease fittings for the shackle pins and have cleaned them out and will flush the pins with new grease tomorrow. That only leaves the drag links and tie rod ends in the front end yet to be done. When finished the entire steering system will have been gone through........sound familiar? You simply can not “spot fix” a front end on a car. You need to do EVERY part. We also plan to service the springs....all 20 of them on each corner. The car rode well and steered extremely easy.......it should be much better when we are done with it. I also replaced all the ball bearings in the upper king pin thrust bearings......it takes 22 balls and I bought fifty American made replacements for 16 dollars. None of the bearings were bad, and all could have been reused, total replacement cost for the front end parts was under 150 bucks........so inexpensive that it doesn’t make sense not to change everything out............should last another 104 years without issue.

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Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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The light project is in progress.......new tail lights arrived today. Brackets will be fabricated and installed tomorrow. With the 12 volt two wire system it makes things much easier to deal with. We are making two new partial wiring harnesses for the car. One to the rear from the battery box to the new tail lights, stop lights, and electric fuel pump. I would usually never run a electric pump on a car with a vacuum tank......but since the installation was started in 1951 and the fuel limes had been cut, and the frame had been drilled for the pump, I figured we would go from where we were at. It’s being done safely. You can’t use the pump while driving the car. You must shut it off, remove the battery cover, and with the engine off you can prime the system. Since the first time I started the car, the Stewart Warner vacuum tank has operated flawlessly. Still using all its 100 year old springs, flapper, and float. Only the top gasket is new. The new tail lights and stop lights will always be “on and working” whenever the car is running.......safety first. The headlights if installed on the car will also operate the same way.....whenever the car is running, the new halogen lights will be on also. It’s all coming together well. We were planning to take the car on a mystery ride Friday night with a bunch of modern “super GT cars” but I don’t think we will be finished for another week at the soonest. Looks like we will take the 1929 Stearns Knight Brunn instead. It’s probably been sixty years since it has been driven using the lights while going down the road. We will post photos Saturday. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Ed,

everyone should be a little jealous about the ease at which you fixed your front end.  It is too bad that other manufacturers did not imitate this setup.  I am still a little curious about how the bearing retainers ended up with the wear on the backside.  Does there seem to be a way to set that retainer at just the right place?  It seems that you have a choice of moving a quarter turn at a time. Is there a picture of the outer bearing? 

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1 hour ago, edinmass said:

We have both spindles off the car. We knew the passenger side had problems. When we got the drivers side apart it too was not where it needed to be. New inner and outer wheel bearings have been sourced. The new bushings have been ordered and arrive tomorrow. Not too bad ordering new off the shelf front end parts for a 104 year old car.

 

Agreed. I think this has been one of the most amazing things in this thread.

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7 minutes ago, nickelroadster said:

Ed,

everyone should be a little jealous about the ease at which you fixed your front end.  It is too bad that other manufacturers did not imitate this setup.  I am still a little curious about how the bearing retainers ended up with the wear on the backside.  Does there seem to be a way to set that retainer at just the right place?  It seems that you have a choice of moving a quarter turn at a time. Is there a picture of the outer bearing? 


 

I will take photos and post a detailed answer tomorrow! 👍
 

FYI- Dave came down a few weeks ago and drove the car. He can attest how easy it steered, and the bit of wobble/vibration in the right front from the bad bushing between 25-35 mph. After that, it went away.........

 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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