Charging issues on my 64'

[TallJohn]

I will take a stab at this. Just replaced my alternator and decided to replace my voltage regulator and connector at the same time. I can't get a reading over 12.4 volts anywhere in the system (battery at 12.4). Checked all the wires for continuity and resistance, all good with only a bit of resistance on the brown wire going from the connector back to the firewall. Driving me nuts so I took the new alternator to the local O'Reilly's and had it bench tested, tested ok 13.4 to 15.8 volts ( even said the voltage regulator was fine! Regulator is external! hmmm.) After a few more You tube videos later I did a diode test on it. It failed. Would a failed diode cause the alternator not to put out voltage from the BAT term on the alternator?  No buzzing from the voltage regulator, adjusted tension spring, nothing. Maybe I got a bad alternator from Summit Racing to begin with. My "ground" is good and both of my multimeters are working fine. Anything else I should check before I send the alternator back? Bench test vs. what is happening in the car makes me scratch my head...  In addition I have gone through previous articles in the Riview and nothing quite hits home. I tried the  suggestions.  You Tube videos helped some, but problem not solved. Thanks for any suggestions you might come up with ....

Edited July 31, 2020 by TallJohn
left out info (see edit history)

[telriv]

More China crap. Send it back.

[johnrex]

Suggest putting in a Powermaster, that's what I did. It came with test data!

[dr914]

I agree, easiest is to change the alternator and regulator with quality parts. If all of the wiring looks good cheap parts are  problem.  I assume that the alternator light comes on when you turn the key on and then stays on when the car is running?

 

[Riviera63]

May or may not be your issue. I had a similar problem going to the BCA National Convention in 2018. Battery died for no apparent reason. Replaced battery, still not charging from the alternator. Coincidentally, pulled into an O'Reilly's and got a voltage regulator as a test at a Tires Plus said it was bad. Still not charging. Replaced that voltage regulator with another one. Still not charging. Got a new alternator. Still not charging. In the end all components were good, new and old. The culprit was a bad connection/connectors at the alternator. They looked good with a visual inspection. Old connectors snipped off, new connectors put on and the problem was solved. Of course, it was in the high 80's and humid while we were changing all of this stuff in the O'Reilly's parking lot and my brother-in-laws driveway.

 

Bill

[TallJohn]

Problem partly solved. I had bought a new connector and wired in the blue and white wires accordingly. all continuity good as stated before . Although my splice was good, the leads in the head of the plug were reversed  from the parts store. I switched them and car was charging immediately. Lesson learned on the blu and white wire to the back of the alternator. Diode test was good too!

 

Now the new issue. Amp light stays on and the voltage regulator is buzzing loudly at idle. Very annoying. System is at 13.3 at idle and 15.2 at higher rpm. Buzzing stops with acceleration , louder as I come to a stop. Amp light is continuous while the car is on.  Any thoughts? Thanks. Ad thanks Riviera 63 for leading me to take a second look at the connector.

[RivNut]

How old are your battery cables?  Are they at least a 0 (zero) gauge or thicker.  The cheap stuff hanging on the racks at your local jobbers just can't handle the load.

[TallJohn]

Positive cable is brand new. Ground cable three or four years old. 

Are you thinking that would be the cause of the voltage regulator buzzing so much as well as the amp light staying on even though the system is charging?

[telriv]

Doubtful that battery cables are at fault since they are fairly new.  What gauge are they???  Do you know or how to tell???  Probably still a bad V/R

[dr914]

sounds like now that the regulator is not operating correctly. It is causing the alternator to charge too much. Will fry the battery and could boil it over

[arnulfo de l.a.]

I think there may be a reverse polarity issue going on some where  that’s causing the regulator chattering and light to stay on.i know its too late now but i always try to have original to the car components rebuilt i.e. starters, generators ,etc. whenever possible

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Do a continuity test and verify that the wire coming from the F terminal on the back of the generator is the one that actually lands on the F terminal of the regulater. Do the same with the R terminal. Make sure you disconnect your battery before doing this. Then check each wire for continuity to ground , then check for continuity between the two wires. Al this must be done with both wires disconnected on both ends. Good luck

[TallJohn]

I had done a continuity test to begin with, but I will do it again to double check. When I started it this morning I increased VR to 14.2 at idle, no buzzing, but Amp light remains on solid and the VR was clicking at the speed of a turn signal and amp light was flickering at the same rhythm of the points tapping each other. Car is charging fine. Took in for a spin, now no  clicking at all ( Hmmmm). Charging fine but amp light still on...ugh

[TallJohn]

Thanks for the replies. Did some more tinkering with the VR this morning. Amp light barely on at idle , goes away at higher rpm. VR Quiet, charging. I will keep tinkering....Continuity is good, double checked...Thanks all...

[Jerry Shuck]

Tall John,  I need your help!  I have the same friggin problem with my '64 Riv.  New alternator, American made voltage regulator, new coil, good battery, cables, good grounds.  The voltage regulator points are chattering at low idle and at acceleration up to about 2000 rpm with the amp dummy light illuminating in sync.   Driving me nuts.  How did you resolve your problem?  Than ks,  Jerry   gshuck@gmx.com

[RivNut]

25 minutes ago, Gerald Shuck said:

Tall John,  I need your help!  I have the same friggin problem with my '64 Riv.  New alternator, American made voltage regulator, new coil, good battery, cables, good grounds.  The voltage regulator points are chattering at low idle and at acceleration up to about 2000 rpm with the amp dummy light illuminating in sync.   Driving me nuts.  How did you resolve your problem?  Than ks,  Jerry   gshuck@gmx.com

Tall John hasn’t been on the forum since January of 2021. Probably sold his Riviera.

[1965rivgs]

29 minutes ago, Gerald Shuck said:

Tall John,  I need your help!  I have the same friggin problem with my '64 Riv.  New alternator, American made voltage regulator, new coil, good battery, cables, good grounds.  The voltage regulator points are chattering at low idle and at acceleration up to about 2000 rpm with the amp dummy light illuminating in sync.   Driving me nuts.  How did you resolve your problem?  Than ks,  Jerry   gshuck@gmx.com

  Make sure your connections at the voltage regulator are good...the guideline is " Clean, Bright and Tight!"

Tom Mooney

Edited December 1, 2022 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[Jerry Shuck]

OK,  all the plugs, wires and grounds are clean and solid and show continuity using my multimeter on the OHMs setting?  Next steps?

[Jerry Shuck]

Hello out there.  Does anyone know the exact point gap(s) adjustments on the Delco Voltage Regulator #01119515?  There are three gaps that might need adjustments according the the tech guy at Lectric Limited but he doesn't know what the gaps should be...simply says that by adjusting the points I might be able to eliminate the contact point chatter.

[RivNut]

Might be easier to replace the old vr with a newer transistorized one.

[Jerry Shuck]

I'll look into that. Thanks

[jframe]

12 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Might be easier to replace the old vr with a newer transistorized one.

I went a step further, and got rid of the external regulator altogether. Bought an internally regulated alternator for a late 70's GM car, then a short adapter harness from Speedway Motors that plugs into the existing alternator harness on one end, and your new alternator on the other. The harness came with a plug that you stick into the voltage regulator harness that jumps the appropriate wires so everything functions. Tucked that unused harness into the fender and left the regulator for appearance. All my charging issues went away.

[Jerry Shuck]

Thanks Mark. Call me an idiot but I'm always trying my best to hold onto originality.  I need to enter the space age I suppose.

[Jim Cannon]

23 hours ago, RivNut said:

Might be easier to replace the old vr with a newer transistorized one.

For future reference, for people who search threads looking for answers, the solid state voltage regulator that works in the 1st gen. Riviera is a Wells VR715.

 

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=942025&jsn=271

 

Out of stock right now. Cover is riveted on, no screws.  If someone substitutes one with screws, it is mechanical, not solid state. You can drill out the rivets and screw an original cover on to make it look like an original Delco Remy VR.

[Riviera63]

5 hours ago, Jim Cannon said:

For future reference, for people who search threads looking for answers, the solid state voltage regulator that works in the 1st gen. Riviera is a Wells VR715.

 

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=942025&jsn=271

 

Out of stock right now. Cover is riveted on, no screws.  If someone substitutes one with screws, it is mechanical, not solid state. You can drill out the rivets and screw an original cover on to make it look like an original Delco Remy VR.

 

I did this after reading Jim's talking about this in the past. I found mine on e-bay. My original cover is on the VR715. An easy swap.

 

Bill

 

 

[Bloo]

On 12/1/2022 at 10:38 AM, Jerry Shuck said:

Tall John,  I need your help!  I have the same friggin problem with my '64 Riv.  New alternator, American made voltage regulator, new coil, good battery, cables, good grounds.  The voltage regulator points are chattering at low idle and at acceleration up to about 2000 rpm with the amp dummy light illuminating in sync.   Driving me nuts.  How did you resolve your problem?  Than ks,  Jerry   gshuck@gmx.com

Take your alternator off and take it to a good auto electric shop and get it checked specifically for bad diodes. They should be able to spin it on their tester and tell. I don't really think this is the problem, but due to the way GM turns the system on I would like to know this detail is OK right up front.

 

On 12/2/2022 at 11:08 AM, Jerry Shuck said:

OK,  all the plugs, wires and grounds are clean and solid and show continuity using my multimeter on the OHMs setting?  Next steps?

I don't think an ohmmeter will do you a lot of good on a charging system, but I'm sure someone will disagree. If you have made sure all those connections are clean and tight, that is what's needed. Make sure the regulator is well grounded to the body. There might be a ground wire under a mounting screw that goes back to the alternator case. be sure its good-clean-tight if it is there. Note: copper wires never stretch, and ones that do are broken inside the insulation.

 

On 12/2/2022 at 12:08 PM, Jerry Shuck said:

Hello out there.  Does anyone know the exact point gap(s) adjustments on the Delco Voltage Regulator #01119515?  There are three gaps that might need adjustments according the the tech guy at Lectric Limited but he doesn't know what the gaps should be...simply says that by adjusting the points I might be able to eliminate the contact point chatter.

I recommend NOT screwing with that. There is no reason for that to be OK and then suddenly wrong under a metal cover. There are probably books posted online that tell you how to do it, and it is probably in your service manual as well, but the last step is setting the little springs to get the charging voltage right and the field relay voltage right. That is a lot of unnecessary headache. Don't do it. The charging voltage, which is set with a spring, is the only thing you would ever normally change in service, and rarely ever then. You would change that after verifying beyond any doubt that the charging voltage is wrong, and checking it against a charging-voltage-vs-temperature table from the manual, taking into account the ambient temperature around the regulator. I don't think that guy knew what he was talking about. Either that or he misunderstood what you were asking him.

 

A tiny tiny bit of barely perceptible chattering is probably normal. Excessive chattering, is most likely caused by excess resistance between the alternator and the battery. The excessive resistance could be on the positive or negative side.

 

Make sure the connection at the big alternator post is clean and solid, and follow it all the way back to the battery. You may need to look at the wiring diagram in the manual (I don't have one here for Riviera). It may go to the horn relay or something (?), and then on down to the starter (probably) and then through the battery cable back to the battery. All connections must be clean and tight. This does not mean that they look clean on the outside, it means that where they are clamped to each other by a screw (or whatever) that the surfaces are clean.

 

On the ground side, some GM cars have a nice big ground wire between the alternator case and the engine block or head. That is nice, but not strictly necessary as long as the alternator is well grounded to the engine through the brackets. Continuing from the engine, follow the current path back to the battery. The negative battery cable is probably(?) attached to the engine, and goes back to the battery terminal, completing the circuit. Make sure everything in that path from the alternator case back to the battery is clean and tight.

 

One more thing, way back in my second paragraph I mentioned that there might(?) be a redundant ground wire from a regulator mounting screw back to the alternator case. If it is not there, then the regulator is getting it's ground another way, and that way is probably the negative battery cable.

 

Some GM cars, (and if memory serves me right this includes the Riviera), have a battery ground cable with a small pigtail that grounds the body. On cars without the redundant ground wire from the regulator to the alternator case, the connection between the big wire and the little wire at the negative battery post could be a big deal, because that connection is functioning as the regulator ground. I have seen cars where someone has replaced the terminal, and there is corrosion growing where the two wires meet at the negative battery terminal.

 

On 12/2/2022 at 1:39 PM, Jerry Shuck said:

Call me an idiot but I'm always trying my best to hold onto originality.  I need to enter the space age I suppose.

I have the same charging system the first generation Riviera uses on my truck. It is a 1966, and has been in the family since 1987 when I won it in a drawing. I have never had to work on the charging system. When it finally fails I imagine I will need to blow the dead spiders out of the regulator, and drag some paper soaked in brake cleaner between the points. Most guys with the "upgrades" change parts a lot more often than that. Your mileage may vary.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

8 hours ago, Bloo said:

Take your alternator off and take it to a good auto electric shop and get it checked specifically for bad diodes. They should be able to spin it on their tester and tell. I don't really think this is the problem, but due to the way GM turns the system on I would like to know this detail is OK right up front.

 

I don't think an ohmmeter will do you a lot of good on a charging system, but I'm sure someone will disagree. If you have made sure all those connections are clean and tight, that is what's needed. Make sure the regulator is well grounded to the body. There might be a ground wire under a mounting screw that goes back to the alternator case. be sure its good-clean-tight if it is there. Note: copper wires never stretch, and ones that do are broken inside the insulation.

 

I recommend NOT screwing with that. There is no reason for that to be OK and then suddenly wrong under a metal cover. There are probably books posted online that tell you how to do it, and it is probably in your service manual as well, but the last step is setting the little springs to get the charging voltage right and the field relay voltage right. That is a lot of unnecessary headache. Don't do it. The charging voltage, which is set with a spring, is the only thing you would ever normally change in service, and rarely ever then. You would change that after verifying beyond any doubt that the charging voltage is wrong, and checking it against a charging-voltage-vs-temperature table from the manual, taking into account the ambient temperature around the regulator. I don't think that guy knew what he was talking about. Either that or he misunderstood what you were asking him.

 

A tiny tiny bit of barely perceptible chattering is probably normal. Excessive chattering, is most likely caused by excess resistance between the alternator and the battery. The excessive resistance could be on the positive or negative side.

 

Make sure the connection at the big alternator post is clean and solid, and follow it all the way back to the battery. You may need to look at the wiring diagram in the manual (I don't have one here for Riviera). It may go to the horn relay or something (?), and then on down to the starter (probably) and then through the battery cable back to the battery. All connections must be clean and tight. This does not mean that they look clean on the outside, it means that where they are clamped to each other by a screw (or whatever) that the surfaces are clean.

 

On the ground side, some GM cars have a nice big ground wire between the alternator case and the engine block or head. That is nice, but not strictly necessary as long as the alternator is well grounded to the engine through the brackets. Continuing from the engine, follow the current path back to the battery. The negative battery cable is probably(?) attached to the engine, and goes back to the battery terminal, completing the circuit. Make sure everything in that path from the alternator case back to the battery is clean and tight.

 

One more thing, way back in my second paragraph I mentioned that there might(?) be a redundant ground wire from a regulator mounting screw back to the alternator case. If it is not there, then the regulator is getting it's ground another way, and that way is probably the negative battery cable.

 

Some GM cars, (and if memory serves me right this includes the Riviera), have a battery ground cable with a small pigtail that grounds the body. On cars without the redundant ground wire from the regulator to the alternator case, the connection between the big wire and the little wire at the negative battery post could be a big deal, because that connection is functioning as the regulator ground. I have seen cars where someone has replaced the terminal, and there is corrosion growing where the two wires meet at the negative battery terminal.

 

I have the same charging system the first generation Riviera uses on my truck. It is a 1966, and has been in the family since 1987 when I won it in a drawing. I have never had to work on the charging system. When it finally fails I imagine I will need to blow the dead spiders out of the regulator, and drag some paper soaked in brake cleaner between the points. Most guys with the "upgrades" change parts a lot more often than that. Your mileage may vary.

 

 

  The ohm meter is to check continuity between wire ends/terminals or for a break in a wire. There are other ways but this is among the most basic.

  The original ground wire on his `64 Riviera is between the ground cable terminal at the battery directly to the votage regulator base via a mounting screw.

  Given the description of the symptoms I have most often found a poor connection at the regulator due to the typical suspects (clean, bright and tight!) or poor continuity between a wire and terminal...a couple of times a broken wire within the insulation.

Tom

[Jerry Shuck]

Great information, thank you.  The fellow who rebuilt my alternator tells me that he put three new negative and three new positive diodes in and tested it before shipping. The only thing that I can think of (other than a bad field relay) after reading all of the wiring warnings above is that my alternator (original to the car) had a ground post that was not utilized before I had it rebuilt.  I ran a redundant ground wire to the block off of this post.  I have always heard that too many grounds are better than fewer.   Grounds and all wiring continuity seems solid to me.  

[Jim Cannon]

Post a picture of all your wires connected to your voltage regulator. I was looking at my '63 today and I saw a yellow wire come out of the wiring harness and connect to one of the voltage regulator mounting screws.  This would be a ground.  I did not look at my alternator, but the yellow wire might run to there. This is the bes way to tie the regulator and the alternator grounds together.

 

I have '64 shop manuals out in the garage. I will look at the wiring diagrams tomorrow to see what they show.

[jframe]

On 12/2/2022 at 3:39 PM, Jerry Shuck said:

Thanks Mark. Call me an idiot but I'm always trying my best to hold onto originality.  I need to enter the space age I suppose.

I certainly understand that; I did the same. Worked on mine trying different regulators and such for over a month, and finally gave up. Got to thinking; do I want to drive this thing, or work on it until spring lol.

[RivNut]

Jim is pretty much a stickler for originality.  Re-read what he said about his use of thr electronic VR.  1 Drill out the rivets hold on thr cover. 2 Remove the cover from your old VR.  3 install the old cover on the new VR using the original screws.  Runs like new, looks old.  
 

Rockauto may be out of stock, but if you Google the part number, you can find them. 

 

[telriv]

Jim,

 

You will be surprised at the wiring differences between '63 & '64

 

Tom T.

[Jim Cannon]

2 hours ago, telriv said:

Jim,

 

You will be surprised at the wiring differences between '63 & '64

 

Tom T.

I know. That's why I specifically mentioned that I was looking at a '63.  Most people think that the 3 years of the 1st gen. Riviera are all "the same" and we both know that they are not.  Similar, but different in some areas.

 

I will get out to my shop and dig up my reference materials. The rain just started and it's getting colder here in the mountains.  A good day to sit indoors by a fire with a few books and wiring diagrams.  🙂

 

[Jerry Shuck]

JIm,

 

I ran a redundant ground line from the mounting bracket of the regulator to the power steering engine bracket mount.

[arnulfo de l.a.]

On 12/1/2022 at 10:38 AM, Jerry Shuck said:

Tall John,  I need your help!  I have the same friggin problem with my '64 Riv.  New alternator, American made voltage regulator, new coil, good battery, cables, good grounds.  The voltage regulator points are chattering at low idle and at acceleration up to about 2000 rpm with the amp dummy light illuminating in sync.   Driving me nuts.  How did you resolve your problem?  Than ks,  Jerry   gshuck@gmx.com

This points to a reverse polarity issue at the regulator. Meaning, your ground wire is going to your positive terminal and vice versa between the alternator and the regulator. The coils in the regulator are polarity sensitive. If I’m not mistaken the field circuit in the alternator is activated by grounding the circuit via the voltage regulator. When the field circuit in the alternator is activated or excited , the battery is being charged. 

[gungeey]

On 12/5/2022 at 11:30 AM, Jerry Shuck said:

Jerry,

 

I ran a redundant ground line from the mounting bracket of the regulator to the power steering engine bracket mount.

 

Jim, I fight veering from original also. But now you have an uglyass green wire running over to your pwr steering pump with a mickey mouse terminal. This is to see if your chatter goes away. I know you were thinking of running  dedicated ground for your delcotron also. Again, not in keeping with " to the letter" original. I'm guessing your alt light is still flickering? I gave in and started using these..  readily available old stock Made in USA item:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185660585490?hash=item2b3a3bb612:g:6XsAAOSwaUBjdZdP&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoLwMHwMkcsAvwdp%2F7m%2BPANg%2BvnLPrWm9UvBiYsyjv0IbpsnyHT3EbrIAUJ6yogxXbaceF2%2Bu4LFZVhs0BqfXoP95EI4YojjvWgDNPq7QwRmqUXelpw0rQmqH%2Bt3BJjFUvZs1w0pPuhr5zECD4EGGFUed1SJzOWRxmGqY%2BkLvkRPBSPrj2Al7xlnoAAafXvd4Bq40qb2sJDxqz1AG5ajExtw%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR5y7sfqcYQ.

 

I use a bolt and nut and serrated lock washer on one of the legs of the vr and clean the inside wheel well to bare metal for the nut/washer. Those self tapping holes have gotten bigger and bigger and aren't good grounds anymore. I use a 00gauge Ground strap for the battery and oversized braided ground straps from engine to firewall.

 

I also buy original appearing alts from these guys. Built from scratch with all new parts. About 100 bucks. Never a problem.

 

Tuff Stuff Performance

 

Finally, battery condition. It seems to be hit or miss. I got a NAPA Legend this time. The Interstate Megatron before lasted about 6 years. The NAPA now has a plain black top if you peel off a couple stickers for a nice clean look.

 

I say this after years of seemingly endless hiccups in electrical systems. Unless you're deadset against any variance from factory perfect original stop fighting and update so you can drive confidently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do have a known good orig VR you can have for shipping. 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by gungeey (see edit history)

[arnulfo de l.a.]

The original electrical systems to these cars are quite stout, in my opinion, as long as you dont tax them with aftermarket high power electronics. My 65 has all the original components and wiring. Only problem i ever had was with the starter. I had it rebuilt by nearby shop. 

[XframeFX]

On 12/5/2022 at 9:23 AM, Jim Cannon said:

The rain just started and it's getting colder here in the mountains.  A good day to sit indoors by a fire with a few books and wiring diagrams. 

We are already 5-weeks into winter. Will be -33 Deg. C overnight.

 

This topic is on the original Delco 10DN Alternator. I switched to a 3-wire 10SI, actually twice. It is also Legacy but is popular and has the internal regulator. Amazing how cheap rebuilds are.

My 3rd attack on this will be a new Bosch AL530N which is a 3-wire 10SI at 61 Amps. The case may need to be "clocked" to bring the connector to the bottom. Doing so, may affect warranty. But warranty didn't cover my rebuilds😨

[Jerry Shuck]

Here is the lates.  Lectric Limited sent me a new replacement voltage regulator and here is the new situation;

 

1.  Engine OFF:  battery reads 13.9 volts DC

 

2.  Engine RUNNING:

     a.  Regulator humming constantly with dummy light on constantly...a little bit of flicker.

     b.  Battery reads   16.7 Volts DC

     c.  Battery reads    5.0 to .7 Volts AC

 

Can I assume that the diodes are bad?  Any more helpful ideas?

[XframeFX]

3 hours ago, Jerry Shuck said:

Battery reads   16.7 Volts DC

Oh Man, too high, totally NG.

 

That replacement VR is an original mechanical contact unit? If so, why not a Wells VR715 electronic VR mentioned here?

 

To understand the idiot light, one bulb contact receives switched 12V with the engine running and the other bulb contact receives voltage from your charging system. Under normal operating conditions, they cancel-out and the bulb remains off. When the charging system fails, there's a differential and the bulb is on.

So obviously the alternator is putting out 16.7 Vdc and the battery where you're measuring from sees this same voltage. The light should be out.

What happens when you have the ignition on ACC? the light should illuminate dimly.

 

I diode is not required when the ignition circuit is separate from the switched circuit and only with conversions to the 10SI Alternator.

 

Treat the Voltage Regulator as a Unit. I wouldn't mess with what's under the cap. It appears the VR and/or the connection to it is the culprit.

 

Resources:

http://www.madelectrical.com/

https://alternatorparts.com/10dn-alternators-parts-and-kits.html

 

Good Luck!