numbers matching?

[Buick35]

I just read an ad for a matching numbers model t ford.I didn't think matching numbers came about until much later,is that true? Thanks,Greg.

[padgett]

Some cars had a number stamped on the engine and body. More had a range.

[wayne sheldon]

There were a lot of serial numbers on model T Fords in the earlier years. The engine number was the only "official" serial number. Most Ts before 1915 also had serial numbers on the radiator, the body, and a "car" number (stamped on the firewall "patent numbers" plate) which Ford specifically stated was NOT the car's serial number (figure that one out?). Practically speaking, none of these serial numbers actually "matched" (in a few rare cases sometimes they do, either by coincidence, or fakery). Over the years, the radiator and "car" numbers disappeared, engine serial numbers remained, and SOME cars also had body numbers (some bodies continued to be supplied by outside vendors). Then in December of 1925, for the '26 model year, and under pressure by several states for a "uniform" frame serial number, Ford began stamping a matching serial number on the frame under the front floorboards. This number from the factory, did match the engine serial number.

While the whole "numbers matching" brouhaha may be important for high performance cars of the "muscle car" era? They are not very important in the world of model Ts. Engines were often changed over the years for a wide variety of reasons. While having a '26 or '27 T with matching numbers would be a plus? It is a minor thing amongst most model T people. When it is time to sell a '26 or '27 T, there are a few potential buyers that will care, and a sale could maybe be made or lost on that basis. But it really does not affect the real value much if at all. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by wayne sheldon
spotted a typo :( (see edit history)

[TerryB]

Here is a PA model T registration from 1919.  Note serial number 

 

[Terry Bond]

3 hours ago, Buick35 said:

I just read an ad for a matching numbers model t ford.I didn't think matching numbers came about until much later,is that true? Thanks,Greg.

 

What numbers are matching?  Does it say in the ad?

Terry

[Joe in Canada]

Engine numbers are a big deal on brass T as there were cosmetic changes and different locations for numbers over the years. Then when you get to the early model T open valve engine you get into serious money.    

[padgett]

So in 1918 a penny post card was 2c ?

[wayne sheldon]

When one gets involved in the really early Ts, one does need to take some time and learn some of the important details. The difference between a maybe $10,000 brass so-called '09 and a $70,000 real '09 is in a hundred little details. Even in a car that looks "right" it can vary from $25,000 to $70,000 just in a few details between the engines and rear axle, and whether the body is a nice remake, or a survivor '09. A lot of people think they have gold in cars that are completely wrong. People that do not know what they are looking at can get stung badly if they do not know those dozens  (hundreds?) of details. I could write pages and pages of horror stories that I have seen in the hobby over the past fifty years. And I do not consider myself an expert.

The engine block alone went through at least five major variations between the early '09s and the end of 1912 model production. In minor details, the serial number in those same years was in four different locations, two of which, it stayed for only a couple of months or less. 

Hobbyists have been faking early blocks since the '50s, some of them very nicely done. If one doesn't know about the "parting lines"? Or the odd single digit numbers (people that know, know of what I mention). There were casting changes made due to deleted design ideas (what is that there for????). Many specific block designs were actually only used for a couple months. On all these, a serial number needs to match the time frame of the specific details.

Edited May 6, 2020 by wayne sheldon
spotted a typo :( (see edit history)

[Joe in Canada]

You can even get into reproduction open valve T engine blocks that Sandy McTavish made who was from Newton On. Canada years ago. There is still the odd one floating around never used. 

I seen an add last year for a fellow trying to find the molds Sandy used to cast the engine blocks. So who knows there might be more open valve engine blocks made in the future. 

[TerryB]

8 hours ago, padgett said:

So in 1918 a penny post card was 2c ?

Yes, it was to help pay for WWI.

[60FlatTop]

There used to be a Zap comics character named Potatoes Browning. I always remember him when I hear Matching Numbers.

 

Some things just stick in your head.

[Mark Wetherbee]

I don’t know the exact date, late 1925 production year (another can of worms in Model T’s) Ford started stamping the engine number on a frame rail. That is the only numbers that could be matching on a T Ford. As stated earlier by Wayne, early cars were in range but I don’t believe any had exactly matching numbers until the 1960’s restoration when people would stamp a reproduction dash plate to match an engine.

 

Wayne’s other comments are spot on, there’s a huge difference in the very early T’s where big money is involved in the smallest things.

[Terry Bond]

Yes indeed, many twists and turns with the numbers game.  I was hopeful the OP would get us a little more info so we could learn what numbers are matching.  Heck, we don't even know what year the car was yet.  It could have simply meant that the number on the engine matched the number of the title.

Terry

[JACK M]

4 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

There used to be a Zap comics character named Potatoes Browning. I always remember him when I hear Matching Numbers.

 

Some things just stick in your head.

 

In an interview Robert Crumb said that all of his characters were patterned after people he knew.

There were even interviews with some of them too.

Zap Comics must be one of the few things I remember about the sixties. seventies.

[60FlatTop]

14 minutes ago, JACK M said:

n an interview Robert Crumb said that all of his characters were patterned after people he knew.

 

That's how I keep the Forum members straight.

[coachJC]

Wayne is bang on in his response about Model Ts. And his last sentence hits the nail on the head "a serial number needs to match the time frame of the specific details." 

And with the exception of early brass cars(09-11) mostly then (12-15)  matching number are not not that important due to Model Ts not having a super high re-sale value.

 

Joe there was a Sandy McTavish Open Valve engine for sale at Hersey 2 yrs ago and it sold, it was up for sale again by the purchaser this past fall. I had a local engine re-builder ask me 100 questions about what I knew about that block.

[1937hd45]

7 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

You can even get into reproduction open valve T engine blocks that Sandy McTavish made who was from Newton On. Canada years ago. There is still the odd one floating around never used. 

I seen an add last year for a fellow trying to find the molds Sandy used to cast the engine blocks. So who knows there might be more open valve engine blocks made in the future. 

 

I don't follow the early T's that closely but would guess you could build a 1909 and win an AACA First Place Award with a trunk full of parts that once saw the inside of the Ford factory. Stanley Steamers are build out of thin air so why not. Bob 

Edited May 6, 2020 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[caddyshack]

If you want to get a little crazy about numbers matching, try researching the Selden Patent numbering system for 1900 to 1911+/- cars. That is where numbers matching needs documentation by Factory build sheets. I spent two years trying to sort out fact from fiction and in the end it paid off very well. I like the research and documentation to verify what I have and possibly what options were included.

Some people don't care, and that is fine too. Just my opinion. 

[Joe in Canada]

9 hours ago, coachJC said:

local engine re-builder

could I ask who the engine builder is?

[coachJC]

11 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

could I ask who the engine builder is?

Sent you a PM

[Akstraw]

On May 5, 2020 at 7:31 PM, TerryB said:

Here is a PA model T registration from 1919.  Note serial number 

 

Postmarked on Christmas Day, no less.