Sid Hiatt Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 Having trouble with the brakes on my 55 , I've replaced the 4 drums new, shoes, wheel cylinders, new springs, retainers and now when I drive it pulls to the right , have bleed the brakes, adjusted the brakes till I am blue in the face and can not fix, I have checked the front end everything seems to be OK ,no movement in wheel up or down or back in forth ,car drives well no drifting side to side . the reason I did this brake work the shoes were wore out and the Drums were to big diameter, had to much taken out. I have also replaced the brake lines with new stainless lines. I'm at a loss as what to do to fix. Any Ideas as what can be the problem or where to look . Hope you guys can help. (P.S the car did not pull either way before brake work.) Thanks, SID Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fr. Buick Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 Shoes installed correctly? Look at your service manual, it will picture how to place the longer and shorter shoe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 Flexible hoses replaced? Brake shoe with the short lining to the front? Lining all from same batch? Wheel alignment? It will pull if toed out. Contaminants on brake shoes? Grease=use spray brake cleaner; brake fluid use simple green and water (if soaked with brake fluid put in boiling water or replace shoes). Swap drums or linings side to side? If air in the lines brake pedal will "pump up" to higher lever than on first application. Bleed carefully with a partner who can follow directions. Try to tap the backing plate with a hammer while bleeding. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packick Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 Boy, does your story sound familiar! I also decided to reline the brakes on my '55 Century since they were worn. They didn't pull at all before I started the job, however after I installed the new brakes it pulled to the right on a hard stop. Easing up to a stop sign there was no pulling. I tried adjusting the brake shoes . . . that didn't fix it; I tried switching the front drums . . . that didn't fix it; I tried new brake springs . . . still no luck. I was at wits end. So I took the car to an old-time mechanic and he found the problem. It wasn't the brakes at all, it was the steering. He ended up tightening the slotted ends on the steering cross shaft (where Pittman arm attaches). The left one was off a bit. That seemed to correct most of the pulling. He told me to drive the car for a while to see if everything settles down; if not, I may need to adjust both sides on the cross shaft inward another half turn in to possibly get rid of the pulling. The Shop Manual tells how many turns to adjust the cross shaft to, but as things wear down those specs may be a bit off. Before the brake job, I had to remove the steering linkage when I installed a new rear main seal. I counted the number of turns I used to unscrew the cross shaft ends, and re-assembled it with the same number of turns . . . or so I thought. Since I did the brake job at roughly the same time I did the rear main seal, I didn't get a chance to drive the car to notice the pulling due to the steering. So I was sure it was a brake problem. Anyway, that's my brake saga. Now the car stops just fine. In fact, we took it on a 400-mile tour in the mountains last fall and the brakes performed as-advertised. Hopefully this will help your situation. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Hiatt Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 The brakes shoes are installed right , going to check every thing again and bled see if that does anything. THANKS ,Sid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Sid Hiatt said: The brakes shoes are installed right , going to check every thing again and bled see if that does anything. THANKS ,Sid Unlikely additional bleeding is required. The pull occurs under braking I'm assuming. If the front end parts are tight then it leaves three things. The right side shoes is contacting the drum first over the left side shoes. The left side maybe slow to react. A shoe is covered with some grease. I would pull both drums and assure the shoes are free of any grease(as Willie suggested). The new drums, did you clean off the light oil or protective coating that normally is applied to new drums/discs to prevent rusting while sitting in a warehouse? 1. Assure the shoes are installed correctly(primary and secondary are in the correct spot). 2. Use brake clean or similar to clean the drums and shoe surfaces. 3. Adjust the star wheel adjuster all the way in. Reinstall the drums. 4. Begin the adjustment procedure again. The shoes just need to slightly touch the drums. Not much drag at all. And...are the wheel bearings torqued as required? And a biggie, the surfaces on the backing plate where the shoes ride, are these smooth? No worn in ridge from years of service? If so, smooth with a grinder so the shoe can move freely. The areas circled in red below: Edited February 24, 2020 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Hiatt Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 When I received the new drums they were ruff grind, took them and had them turned smooth , no grease on shoes or drums, the shoes are installed correct , the wheel bearings are torque correct, the backing plates are smooth, it just doesn't make any sense. Yes the pull is under braking , no pulling either way when car is moving only on stopping. The pass side is adjusted with slight or no shoe to drum contact the driver side has more drag than right side. Did not have this problem with old shoes and wore out drums . Thanks, SID Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 36 minutes ago, Sid Hiatt said: The pass side is adjusted with slight or no shoe to drum contact the driver side has more drag than right side. Any drag will heat up the shoes and drum and may affect braking: sometimes worse; sometimes better depending on the lining material. Does it pull the same with cold brakes? Two years ago I replaced the front wheel cylinders on my 55. The fit was the same as the old ones except for the bleeder which is now metric. I had a helluva time getting them bled! This year I flushed the fluid...just flushed with no air introduced... and had hard pulling to the right. Bled again = no joy. Next I got a helper to stand hard on the pedal (only letting it go down half way) and I slightly cracked a bleeder while tapping on the backing plate. That solved it. Somehow air got into the system even though my bleeding technique has a tube attached to a reservoir above the bleeder. Vacuum bleeders never worked for me...some say it is because the master cylinder is below the wheel cylinders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Another item to check, what does the wear on the shoes look like? The contact patch appears to be equal from side to side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Call me crazy, I have heard a few times that switching the drums from side to side cured the pull issue. Then again, it could be those that did this simply re-adjusted the brakes once the drums were switched. The adjustment corrected the issue and not so much of a drum switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Were the shoes arced to the corresponding drum. Every time a drum is turned, no matter how little the shoes NEED to be arced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Hiatt Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 I'm sorry but never heard about shoes need to be arced and don't know you mean? unless you mean the shoes need to wear to the drum? Don't see how changing drums from one side to the other would change pull but will due and see. Yes it pulls when brakes are cold . I noticed that the shoes seem to be making contact at the top and bottom of the primary shoe and the bottom of the secondary shoe with the drum. the shoes seem to be ruffed up. Both sides pass and driver side shoes look like that. Hope I made that clear? The front of the shoes are smooth, and they are were smooth when installed? Thanks for all the input, hope I get this corrected . SID Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caballero2 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 I think that this might help some. https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?showuninstallsurvey=1&installsource=nag&schemaver=1.0.0.0&year=2015&source=nag&machinelocation=244&cmpgn=ignite&hsimp=yhs-ext_onb&ssdcat=321&vendor=none&vendorsrc=firefox&oslocale=iso:usa&osvers=6.1&ver=22.17.3.50&oslang=iso:eng&os=windows&templatecat=sbu_w_1000_5039_nsbu_retail_2&cdest=nag&chn=1007450&version=22.17.3.50&o=ds&p=brake shoe arching machine photo&prt=ngc&schemacat=sbu_w&olpchannel=retail&tpr=111&doa=2019-07-24&guid=2124f7d8-323e-4218-9c0c-3561844bc64a&hspart=symantec&installstatus=updated&doi=2019-07-24&type=ff_ds_ignite_wk30_2019¶m1=2124f7d8-323e-4218-9c0c-3561844bc64a_2019-07-24_ff¶m2=ds_nag_ignite¶m3=ngc_22.17.3.50_wk30_2019¶m4=1007450 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Anyone who doesn't know about arcing or arching (depends on the country) brake shoes has no business touching brake shoes or drums. If the shoe does not fit the drum (make contact all around) how can it possibly stop the car correctly. Pure PHYSICS Pure COMMON SENSE. All the stories about riding the brakes until the shoes fit just indicate an ignorance by the mechanic of what he was doing. Shoes can be hand fitted/arced/arched to a drum, it just takes a little longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fr. Buick Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 An arcing machine is a grinding device that measures the dia of the drum and grinds down the shoes slightly to match that dia. so that you get a more complete contact of shoe to drum. Try a truck repair shop. To confirm good contact, remove the shoes and set them against the drum. More gap equals less brake effectiveness. I helped a budy recently on an early Chrysler with 14 inch drums, where all shoe contact was at the ends of the shoe, none in the middle, so the shoe material installed by a prior owner was too thick. He ground it down by hand, and got much better brakes. You could use machining blue on the drum and rub the shoe against it to help get a more even contact pattern. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 7 hours ago, Fr. Buick said: An arcing machine is a grinding device that measures the dia of the drum and grinds down the shoes slightly to match that dia. so that you get a more complete contact of shoe to drum. Try a truck repair shop. To confirm good contact, remove the shoes and set them against the drum. More gap equals less brake effectiveness. I helped a budy recently on an early Chrysler with 14 inch drums, where all shoe contact was at the ends of the shoe, none in the middle, so the shoe material installed by a prior owner was too thick. He ground it down by hand, and got much better brakes. You could use machining blue on the drum and rub the shoe against it to help get a more even contact pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 Keep in mind that prussion blue is actually a grease that you will be rubbing into your linings. Just sayin.......bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Hiatt Posted February 26, 2020 Author Share Posted February 26, 2020 I am 81years old and have worked on cars all my life and have worked on drum brakes on lots of different makes of cars and I can honest say never heard of a arcing machine, so a old dog can learn something new. Mr. Tinindian as having no business working on brakes we all cant be as smart as you seem to be. Maybe as growing up very poor and always doing with nothing never could afford real garage work I missed arcing shoes. I must of been lucky until this car. Thanks again, Sid 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Sid Hiatt said: I am 81years old and have worked on cars all my life and have worked on drum brakes on lots of different makes of cars and I can honest say never heard of a arcing machine, so a old dog can learn something new. Mr. Tinindian as having no business working on brakes we all cant be as smart as you seem to be. Maybe as growing up very poor and always doing with nothing never could afford real garage work I missed arcing shoes. I must of been lucky until this car. Thanks again, Sid My personal experience with out of the box drum shoes, I have not had an issue with having to be worked to fit the contour of the drum allowing more contact. I'm certain there are shoes that simply do not provided good overall contact straight out of the box. I had a set on my 60 that were poor in overall contact. The replacement organic shoes straight out of the box followed the contour of the drums quite well. I installed same. 2 ton Annie stops great. Edited February 26, 2020 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 So how hard does it pull? Just a slight drift if you let go of the steering wheel or doe it jerk the steering wheel out of your hands and lock up the wheel? If the former, then just drive it and re-adjust the shoes after a few hundred miles; if the latter look for contaminants on the shoes, air in the system or defective hose. Maybe it is the new non-asbestos lining material that is so sensitive. In the past I just installed the cheapest Western Auto linings and did nothing with very worn, grooved and tapered drums...it was a little squirrely at first but soon settled to work normally. On one car recently the brakes were working well, but the linings were very worn...worn in the center to the rivets with no contact on the edges. Better drums and new linings and it still works well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 With soft shoes mechanics got used to no arching shoes to fit drums, as they wore in quickly. Which was good, since arching shoes in the old days put asbestos in the air to breathe. Now with hard linings, one must look to see how close the shoe matches the drum. And adjust. No longer asbestos worries, but still use a dust mask.... Using machining blue is carrying a good thing a little too far, eye sight is fine to see if the shoe matches the drum. And if used drum, check for bellmouth, taper, etc. etc. All which affect friction from shoe to drum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caballero2 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 I belive all are on track about the shoes being on exact center with the drum. However, no-one is citing the fact that the anchor pin for the shoes is eccentrically mounted in the backing plate. In the service manual, at least for the '57s, a major adjustment is described when no arching machine is availible, the mounting nut on the anchor is loosened and with the brakes applied, the anchor pin is rotated to center the shoe. This adjustment should be done by strictly following instructions in the manual. If I am correct, this adjustment is also described in the '55 service manual. Caballelro2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packick Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 Caballero2: Good point. My assumption when Sid indicated he adjusted the brakes was that the eccentric had been adjusted too. Silly me. Also, you stated that when you adjust the eccentrics you loosen the bolt then apply the brakes to center the shoes. In my '55 shop manual, unless I misread it, it says to loosen the bolt, then tap on the backing plate with a hammer to get the shoes to center. Did Buick change the process from '55 to '57? Your method sounds more logical. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caballero2 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 Yes, I overlooked the BFH part. Hope that I covered that and maybe otlhers by emphasizing the strict instructions. Caballero2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Hiatt Posted February 27, 2020 Author Share Posted February 27, 2020 I did not try adjusting the anchor pin, well give it a try and see if it helps, I want to thank all of you for your input. Will keep you posted on my progress Thanks ,SID . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 Seems like a lot of time spent checking and rechecking the usual suspects. I am thinking I might get under the car while it is sitting with all four wheels on the ground and give each A-frame a gentle tug with a come-a-long anchored to the midsection of the frame. Compare the play with a couple of guide sticks at the front of the a-frame. Might also do the same check on the rear. When you keep doing the same thing correctly and still have a problem you need to try something else. Two scrap pieces of vinyl flooring with silicone sprayed between placed under the wheels will make them slide easy. It could make you say the same thing the old woman said when the person next to her yelled "Bingo". Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Hiatt Posted March 9, 2020 Author Share Posted March 9, 2020 Give a update on my brakes, I bought new wheel cylinders and new hoses and spring kits again for the front from Fusick and installed , and I don't have the pulling any more to the right . I did not buy from them in the beginning from Fusick . As for the shoes fitting the drums I left the adjusting spring and wheel on the shoes and put them inside the drum and they fit perfect to the drum . The shoes did not need to be arched . Brake pedal goes to about 2 inches from the floor it is a hard pedal but wish it was more than it is. The brakes on this car have been a problem since day one , I was putting the car in my garage after just receiving the car and the brakes failed and caused $ 9,000 damage to 2 other cars. This car has not been kind to me. So I don't know what the problem was for sure but is now fixed. Thanks again to all, SID 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packick Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 You might be able to adjust the rod coming out of the Master Cylinder to get more brake pedal. I haven't done that on my '55 Century but I have on my other old cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, packick said: You might be able to adjust the rod coming out of the Master Cylinder to get more brake pedal. I haven't done that on my '55 Century but I have on my other old cars. You may have to do that especially if someone has "messed with it" in the past, but that rod seldom needs adjusting once it is set. Drive it a few hundred miles and adjust the shoes at all 4 wheels. Edited March 9, 2020 by old-tank spelling (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 Adjust the brakes so they have slight drag on all 4 wheels. By slight I mean you can hear the scrape, but not see the wheel slow down much as you spin it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 10 hours ago, Frank DuVal said: Adjust the brakes so they have slight drag on all 4 wheels. By slight I mean you can hear the scrape, but not see the wheel slow down much as you spin it. Nope. Page 287 in service manual! Drive a few hundred miles so that any edges that interfered with the initial adjustment are worn away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packick Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 There seems to be two schools of thought on how to adjust the brakes. One method is as Frank and Old-Tank describe. However, an old mechanic friend of mine swears by this method: Tighten the adjusting screw (star wheel) so that the drum can’t be moved by hand, or is an effort to move with two hands. Then loosen the adjusting screw by about 6 clicks. He claims that this is the proper setting for the brakes. There will be lots of scraping on the drum but you should be able to move the drum by hand. On one of my old cars I used Frank's method but the brake pedal went about 1/2 way to the floor before I got a solid pedal. When I used the method described above, the brake pedal only went down about 1/4 of the way. Maybe my first adjustment could have used a couple more clicks? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56 Buick Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 I still don't understand which method we should be using. I have seen both methods referred to. I am the same as you because if I use the method of no scraping then the travel on the brake pedal is crazy but if I do the 6 clicks method there is some scraping and the brake pedal travel issue is good. However, doesn't this mean the shoes are always dragging and will just wear shoe and drum face? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 I was taught the scraping method as a teen, but the last adjustment I did on the '56 was the non scraping one. It may be that the parking brake needs to be adjusted tighter in order to bring the pedal up in both situations. I am satisfied with the no scraping method as long as I can get my sneaker toe under the depressed pedal and the pedal is firm, not spongy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 10 hours ago, 56 Buick said: I still don't understand which method we should be using. I have seen both methods referred to. I am the same as you because if I use the method of no scraping then the travel on the brake pedal is crazy but if I do the 6 clicks method there is some scraping and the brake pedal travel issue is good. However, doesn't this mean the shoes are always dragging and will just wear shoe and drum face? Which method? Service manual! The "drag method" will never get an even adjustment. The manual says 12 clicks and 6 clicks is probably OK, BUT if there is some dragging some shoes will heat and even swell to drag even more with more heat and that shoe will be less effective in a sudden stop with pulling to the opposite side. The aggressive material on the shoes that I use do not like 6 clicks, so 12 it is and I live with a lower pedal that stops real good. Always count the clicks to tighten before you back off...you need to know where you started; the first adjustment after the initial installation adjustment will show a big difference between wheels. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 1950 calls for backing off 15 clicks. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) Arcing brakes shoe... Edited March 21, 2020 by c49er (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 The original problem was pulling to the right with four wheel drum brakes. If the same technique was used to adjust all four brakes something else would cause the pulling. Remember the guy a couple of years ago with the shudder in his '48 Buick convertible? All the speculation and suggestions and it turned out all the bolts weren't put back into the bell housing after a clutch job. My earlier suggestion was to look for play in the suspension attaching points. It was a fairly easy test. My next step would be to replace the shoes. It is possible some greezy fingers got on the surface and "someone" thought brake cleaner would clean it off. There have been some quiet moments in my garage after the Boss said "Keep your fingers off the braking surfaces". Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now