'31 Chrysler Imperial for $55K

[ligurian]

What was wrong with that CG Chrysler Imperial for it to go for $55K?

[Matt Harwood]

Right-hand drive rebodied from a 4-door sedan in South Africa.

[1937hd45]

Photos or a link to the auction, please. Bob 

[Matt Harwood]

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/hf19/hershey/lots/r0148-1931-chrysler-cg-imperial-dual-cowl-phaeton-in-the-style-of-lebaron/797013

[K8096]

[maok]

It needs WW ...😁

[John_Mereness]

No offense to the person who built it as they did a very good job building it, though it just is unfortunately just "off" enough to substantially hurt its value. 

[1937hd45]

Looks like a nice addition to someone's collection, what would $55,000 buy you in Ford V8's 1932-1940? Bob 

[alsancle]

11 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Right-hand drive rebodied from a 4-door sedan in South Africa.

 

Bingo.   Plus the gas smelled like it was 25 years old.   I was impressed it was able to run.

 

Anytime you see what looks like a "deal" at an auction with the attendance level of this one you should assume that there are real reasons for the price.

 

The real steal was the 36 Packard Super Eight Phaeton for under 100k.

[Matt Harwood]

There was no money in the room for anything after that V16 Cadillac. Some of that stuff went shockingly cheap. I bet RM was thrilled with day 1 sales and disappointed with day 2 sales.

[John_Mereness]

The "shockingly" has been showing itself since about January.   I would call it a car recession or maybe just seeing what happens via tail of a period of possible unsustainable growth - the really choice stuff seems to be doing fine, convertibles fine, exceptional restorations fine (but owners often still loosing on sale values less than restoration costs), certain sports cars doing well and others bouncing all over the board, the decent usable under 20-25K stuff seems ok, and the rest is just getting by or ... 

 

Sidenote:  The cost of restoring is a real eye openner !

Edited October 14, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[md murray]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

.

 

The real steal was the 36 Packard Super Eight Phaeton for under 100k.

-Absolutely. As honest as they come, just a lovely car

[Graham Man]

Ultra rare optional padded dash...paint falling off the dash.  It is so hard to convert a sedan...

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

2 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

... the really choice stuff seems to be doing fine, convertibles fine, exceptional restorations fine...

 

One of our local members is a Packard collector.

He had 2 beautiful Packard phaetons at Hershey.

He told me that the Classics are having the same

trouble in the falling market as other cars are:  There

are just too many on the market and not enough buyers.

[alsancle]

“Choice stuff” does not include production bodied Packards.  It is the 1/10 of 1 percent stuff that you see zero of at most shows.

 

Things are slow across the board for 99.9 percent of the cars.

[Restorer32]

The collapse of prices should thrill those who constantly chant that "money is ruining the hobby".

[Matt Harwood]

Not to go off on this tangent yet again, but there's a big correction happening right now, in front of our eyes. Current owners or their relatives, or, if you're lucky the next guy to own your car, they're all going to have to take considerably less than they think the car is worth to get it sold. The days of old cars gaining value every year are over and the mass-produced common cars that were popular with a huge swath of the Baby Boomers are going to get hit hardest (think 55-57 Chevys and T-Birds). Supply far outstrips demand in almost every category so prices are necessarily going to have to fall and they are falling, right in front of our eyes. In 2008, a really nice 1957 Bel Air convertible, black with a red interior and a Power Pack would be a $100,000 car. I just sold an extremely nice one for $62,000. -40% in about 10 years, and the bleeding has only just begun.

 

Whatever you do, DO NOT tell your kids that they'll be able to retire on what your old cars are worth. You're only dooming them to maintaining these anchors for life while they wait for a buyer who will never come. And stop saying, "Well, I paid $40,000 for it, but I spent another $15,000 on it, so I need to get $70,000 out of it." That's a pipe dream, too. You WILL lose money, so go ahead and start planning for it.

 

There's no money left in the hobby except at the very top, as AJ says. The rest of us are going to have to get back to simply enjoying it because we enjoy it and let the money we lose be the cost of the fun we're having.

[Restorer32]

I can't wait for Duesenbergs to get cheap. I've always wanted one.

[1937hd45]

Most guys loose money playing golf. They die and the clubs go to the dump. Bob 

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

“Choice stuff” does not include production bodied Packards.  It is the 1/10 of 1 percent stuff that you see zero of at most shows.

Things are slow across the board for 99.9 percent of the cars.

 

Does anyone have some sales examples to verify

that custom-bodied Packards are still doing well?

Our local member's Classics include, I know, a dashing

1934 salon model (pictured) and things that aren't so ordinary,

yet he surprised me by saying that the top end is hurting too.

He said the difference in the last 5 to 10 years is remarkable.

 

Another local man, just a couple of years ago, bought

a Marmon V-16 convertible.  It was at Hershey in 2017.

This part of Penna. is full of people with interesting cars,

yet in our well-populated AACA region those collectors are a little bit

fewer every year, sorry to say.  That might explain the statement

that there is currently a surplus of cars on the market. 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

There are too many cars out there, just look at the Billions of dollars of inventory sitting on dealership lots. Every Vintage car dealership has hanger queens that have been there for years. The ugly and overpriced will be around forever. Bob 

[1937hd45]

Question for the dealers & informed. That Chrysler looks nice in the photo, but the trunk could be left on the curb. If this had been a 3, or 4 1/2 liter Bentley four door that had a touring body added would there be any complaint? Bob

[FLYER15015]

17 hours ago, maok said:

It needs WW ...😁

YUP !!!

 

Mike in Colorado

[alsancle]

With whitewalls it might have struggled to break 50k.   I will echo Matt:

 

1.  RHD is a killer in the USA for cars that were available with LHD.

 

2.  Reproduction coachwork is usually 20 to 25% of the value of a real car.    If you look at the real white one of these (with LHD) that sold at Greenwich a few years ago you will see it brought around 180k for similar tatty condition.

 

Take #1 and #2 and multiple them and the 55 doesn't look too bad.  Remember the vig, so it was really 60k.

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, 1937hd45 said:

 If this had been a 3, or 4 1/2 liter Bentley four door that had a touring body added would there be any complaint? Bob

 

Well, there's a difference in a number of ways. Body swaps (that is, taking a correct body from one car and putting it on another chassis) are less egregious than rebodies (creating a new but correct body from scratch), which are more acceptable than whatever you would call something like this Chrysler (being a cut-down sedan modified to resemble a dual-cowl phaeton). There are certainly degrees of wrongness. Body swaps will take a hit, but not as great a hit as a full rebody and nowhere near as big as a made-up car like this. The Bentley guys are wary of made-up cars and reproduction bodywork, but body swaps don't seem to bother them much. That's typically because 1) the cars are very well documented so they know where the bodies came from and 2) because there are all kinds of "upgrades" that all the Bentley guys do anyway (for instance, most 3 litre cars become 4-1/2 litre cars without any external differences since they use the same block). They also seem more open to mixing and matching since that happened a lot in-period and has always been generally acceptable. But there are plenty of cars that are known to have been recently created from nothing (my ex-business partner's 1924 Bentley 3/4.5 litre LeMans touring, for example) and while they're technically correct, they're not regarded in the same league as "real" cars that were built by Bentley in-period. That, to me, is as it should be.

 

With cars conjured from thin air, it all depends on the quality. This Chrysler looks OK until you see a correct one next to it, then every line on it is wrong. You will constantly have to explain this car to people who scratch their heads over certain details. It will never be welcome on any show field that matters, including AACA and CCCA, never mind a major concours. That automatically excludes any guy with real money, which will clamp down on values pretty hard. That's in contrast to, say, a Fran Roxas rebody that exactly duplicates a car that either never existed or was destroyed or which only one or two exist and someone wants one anyway. A correct rebody is worth more than a car like this Chrysler, but far less than a real one even if the quality is equal or better to original (which I would argue Fran's cars are).

 

It's a totally esoteric thing, but that's how our hobby has decided to value premium cars. It's the Full Classic version of an L89 Corvette with matching numbers vs. a warranty replacement block vs. a clone. Technically the same car, vastly different values. Silly on one hand, but on the other, why pay a premium for a car that isn't right? You can argue that for $60,000 that Chrysler could be a lot of fun (and I would not disagree) but you will quickly find that when you try to sell it the list of buyers is extremely short. As my friend Motoringicons once said, "Easy to buy, hard to sell." Do you really want to shell out $60 grand on something that is neither fish nor foul, unwelcome at most events, and will be an anchor when you try to sell it?

 

To put it more into your area of expertise, Bob, what about an early brass Model T created entirely from parts in the Snyder's catalog? Worth as much as an authentic 1909 Model T? Or just a mongrel, even if it's a beautiful mongrel?

 

That is why the value on this Chrysler was relatively low. It has to be to make owning it anything near a reasonable proposition.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[md murray]

1 hour ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

Does anyone have some sales examples to verify

that custom-bodied Packards are still doing well?

 Obviously not custom bodied but certainly a fine example of a ridiculously gorgeous Packard doing pretty well.  Fairly recent and expensive enough to give any ordinary man a nose bleed.

https://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1930-packard-734-speedster-runabout-2/

Quote

 

 

 

[1937hd45]

10 minutes ago, md murray said:

 Obviously not custom bodied but certainly a fine example of a ridiculously gorgeous Packard doing pretty well.  Fairly recent and expensive enough to give any ordinary man a nose bleed.

https://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1930-packard-734-speedster-runabout-2/

 

I would have bought something more exotic for that money. Still happy I sold my 1928 Packard 443 Roadster and spent the money buying my 1912 Ford. Bob 

[Ed Luddy]

6 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Not to go off on this tangent yet again, but there's a big correction happening right now, in front of our eyes. Current owners or their relatives, or, if you're lucky the next guy to own your car, they're all going to have to take considerably less than they think the car is worth to get it sold. The days of old cars gaining value every year are over and the mass-produced common cars that were popular with a huge swath of the Baby Boomers are going to get hit hardest (think 55-57 Chevys and T-Birds). Supply far outstrips demand in almost every category so prices are necessarily going to have to fall and they are falling, right in front of our eyes. In 2008, a really nice 1957 Bel Air convertible, black with a red interior and a Power Pack would be a $100,000 car. I just sold an extremely nice one for $62,000. -40% in about 10 years, and the bleeding has only just begun.

 

Whatever you do, DO NOT tell your kids that they'll be able to retire on what your old cars are worth. You're only dooming them to maintaining these anchors for life while they wait for a buyer who will never come. And stop saying, "Well, I paid $40,000 for it, but I spent another $15,000 on it, so I need to get $70,000 out of it." That's a pipe dream, too. You WILL lose money, so go ahead and start planning for it.

 

There's no money left in the hobby except at the very top, as AJ says. The rest of us are going to have to get back to simply enjoying it because we enjoy it and let the money we lose be the cost of the fun we're having.

With 2020 a few months away it looks like "Boom, Bust, Echo Theory" is coming true. Up here in the frozen tundra of South Western Ontario old cars are very soft.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Ed Luddy (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

21 hours ago, alsancle said:

“Choice stuff” does not include production bodied Packards.  It is the 1/10 of 1 percent stuff that you see zero of at most shows.

 

Things are slow across the board for 99.9 percent of the cars.

I think the 36 Super Packard Phaeton that sold at Hershey went too low and I am guessing this was due to it being an original car with upgrades verses fully restored - which is a shame is I would rather have a car in this condition 100 times over a restored car - and basically have always been willing to pay more too.

 

The Standard 8 Phaeton that did not sell was sort of an anomaly like the non-supercharged Auburn Speedster that recently sold (when you hit certain price ranges you tend to want the best of the best example in the Marque verses ...). 

 

I disagree with the Millennial argument of Matt's - what I believe is that lots of cars soared up in value and it is difficult to find buyers for so many over 100K priced cars - regardless of peoples age or ...  Running a Concours d'Elegance, I will tell you that people love the early stuff, though the problem is they just plain cannot afford it or they can afford one "it" and get something more drive-able/usable.  I also I see noticeable numbers of younger people at Horseless Carriage Club events matched to younger people at Auburn Cord Duesenberg Events. And, in Europe younger people are commonplace with older cars. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)