nzcarnerd Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 A long shot. The photo was posted on a local facebook page which is supposed to be for NZ photos but this one obviously is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 OK, enlighten me, please. Not doubting, curious. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 50 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: OK, enlighten me, please. Not doubting, curious. Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 I guess that the speedster (aka, race about) is circa 1910-1912. The car's features don't match Mercer, Stutz, or Peerless of the period. The car appears to be professionally made (not home-built). The following are some features that I noted in the photograph: • The car has a monocle windshield, which has been removed (note the slightly darker area on the steering column, below the steering wheel). • The car has a step plate. • The car is lacking the fenders. • The car has four spare tires stacked behind the driver. • The car has separate quadrants for the spark and throttle controls on the steering wheel hub (a bit unusual). • The car appears to have an "aerodynamic" designed pressure tank on the frame. Likely for the acetylene headlights. • The gear shift lever gate design and the hand brake mounting is a clue to indentifying the car. • The shape of the cowl likely encloses an angled instrument panel board. • The gasoline tank could be oval shaped, as not much of the tank is visible behind the driver. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Close up of the gear shift gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stude17 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) Definitely a long shot but if the initials on the side of the seat are "GJG" I'll go for a GJG Pirate Runabout circa 1910-12 https://www.google.com/search?q=gjg+pirate+runabout&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj1t6KrvtDfAhUGgbwKHYljB6IQ7Al6BAgFEA0&biw=1035&bih=534&dpr=1.75#imgrc=1InLVP2uk3BwAM:&spf=1546479556935 Edited January 3, 2019 by Stude17 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 The hat that the woman is wearing has a fairly close match to the hat (less the feather) offered in a 1912 millinery catalog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 • Re. the letters on the driver's seat: They appear to be "EAG". • Re. the unknown car being a GJG Pirate runabout: The shape of the top of the hood on the GJG car does not match the unknown car. • Re. GJG brand name on the driver's seat: The company would likely use their "triangle" logo on the seat (rather than initials); see below. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28 Chrysler Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 I think it is one of the in studio cars. A prop car in front of a mural painted wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 The '36539' serial would suggest a professional photographer's work and/or filing system. And it may be in front of a painted background, but that has to be a real car. With what tires cost at that time, no one would likely stack four on the rear deck for just photo prop use. In fact, I can't ever recall a period photo of a car with four spare covers stacked up on the rear deck. This one is a mystery, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 The passenger has her hat tied on with a scarf. The "driver" appears to be relying on gravity to keep her voluminous hat on. Note the driver's knees. They are very high. I think she (they) are just sitting in the car, with feet nowhere near the pedals. The driver's seat back appears to be higher than the passenger's. I wonder if the passenger's seat is lower than and forward of the driver's, as they were in racing cars of the era. The four tires on the rear might indicate an endurance racer (no pit crews: the driver and "engineer" changed flats). I think tires in the day were unreliable, not least because the rubber was low strength (Zinc oxide was nowhere near as good as carbon black for strengthening rubber). So I think it is a professional promotional session with the racing car and the owner's or driver's wife and daughter have had their photo taken in the mean machine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lump Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 The quality and size of the photo would strongly suggest a professional photographer, as do the numbers in the print. So you could say that these things would lend credence to the idea of a studio with backdrop. But the scene behind the car certainly isn't very dramatic or impressive, such as one might expect to find in a studio backdrop. Back in the early 1900's, "brush" was considered to be an "untidy nuisance, " So would have expected something more impressive in a studio backdrop. I also notice two light-colored horizontal lines in the background behind the passengers left outer arm, which might be a couple boards or etc lying there. Now if those were towering trees in the background, or a brook with a waterfall, or a beautiful flower garden, one might be more convinced of an artificial backdrop. When trying to figure out the "story" of a photo, I like to look at reflections, and to scan for things like airbrush touch-ups. (If there is any airbrush work here, it's really good, because I didn't notice it.) With old-time studio shots of glossy things like cars, you can sometimes see evidence of light sources from more than one direction (from various studio lights hung around a building). Sometimes you can even see reflections of dark-painted rafters, light booms, cords, etc. My tired and weak old eyes can't see any here. In my career I have shot a lot of car photos for publication in car magazines and/or car parts catalogs. On occasions which required serious professional skills and equipment, I hired skilled professional photographers; sometimes working with them on multi-day photo sessions. In that experience I have come to believe that the two best situations for getting terrific quality photos of glossy, reflective objects like shiny cars are: 1) Top quality studios, and 2) Outdoors on brightly cloudy days. (Thin clouds make excellent light diffusers, which help avoid distracting shadows, glares, hot-spots, and reflections) Noticing the bright reflection on the hood and cowl on this car, with good reflections of the cowl light and hold-down clamp in the side of the hood, suggests a very bright environment (like outdoors). You can also see the light-reflection on the "aerodynamic designed pressure tank" on the side, which seems to match the angle of the light-reflection on the hood and cowl. Another observation: photographers I have worked with always try to avoid things in the background which will look like they are "growing out of the head" of the subject. In this photo, the driver's head is directly in front of a tree trunk. Yet there is a clear space right beside the tree. Indeed, if the passenger moved closer to the driver to close the distance (notice how much room there is in the passenger seat near the driver), then the car could have been rolled forward about a foot (or the camera shifted) and both ladies' heads would be outlined by open space in the background. I'm not sure of anything here. Just making observations to try and help everyone figure this puzzle out. And I'm definitely not an expert on old-time photography techniques. But many of the clues that I look for to try and spot a studio shot of a shiny car are not visible here...at least not to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lump Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Good observations, Spinneyhill. I too assume that this photo is merely two women posing in someone's car, with no intention of actually driving it at the moment. But one point I might disagree would be your observation about the driver's hat. My parents loved collecting antique clothing which reflected the correct vintage of the cars we and our friends enjoyed. Mom had lots of old hats that she wore for old car tours, and had an extensive collection of fancy hat pins which she usually used to keep those hats in place. Only occasionally would she use a scarf to hold her hat in place, explaining to me that multiple hat pins would secure the hat to ladies' heads without crushing a fancy hairdo which was under the hat...unlike a scarf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Yes, I had thought of pins, but that is so big. My grandmother had a good selection of hat pins, I remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Quote I have come to believe that the two best situations for getting terrific quality photos of glossy, reflective objects like shiny cars are: 1) Top quality studios, and 2) Outdoors on brightly cloudy days. (Thin clouds make excellent light diffusers, which help avoid distracting shadows, glares, hot-spots, and reflections) Most of the broadcast commercials I've been around outdoors were done during morning twilight, i.e. after it gets light but before the sun comes up, simply for the even quality of the light at that hour. Quote The four tires on the rear might indicate an endurance racer (no pit crews: the driver and "engineer" changed flats). No issue with the claim, but as I said, I've never seen a period photo showing even an endurance racer carrying four tires. Two, for sure; three, maybe, but never four. Do feel as most seem that this is a staged shot. Bet that woman never drove that car an inch... Still, there are enough unique features that we ought to have a shot at ID'ing it. That cowl and that pointy tank, which I feel is likely an oil tank rather than an acetylene tank. Anybody recall seeing anything like that before? If only Austy Clark were still with us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 23 hours ago, gwells said: that pointy tank, which I feel is likely an oil tank rather than an acetylene tank. I think so too. It has a pump on it. Unusual for the driver to pump up oil pressure though – I thought that was the engineer's job. I have a vague memory of having seen such a pointy tank on these fora before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Have to chuckle at you using the term engineer at this context. I think mechanician was fairly common back then but riding mechanic became the standard after WWI, it seems to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipdang Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Just a slight addition: both women seem to be dressed for a leafless, chilly day – coats, hats, gloves, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 A friend told me that the tank on the side of chassis, below the driver, is an oil tank as used on Simplex raceabouts of the period. The "aerodynamic" design of the oil tank, as well as the four spare tires, implies that the car may be intended (or used in) a road race. Two of the spare tires appear to be well used. I checked Simplex online pictures, but could not find a match to the gear lever gate or the handbrake design. The handbrake support has a strap (with the detent teeth) over the outside surface of the lever, just above the pivot point, which seems to be a fairly unique design feature. Most of the cars of the period had the handbrake detent teeth located on the side of the lever facing the chassis. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHa Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Is this a Locomobile Briarcliff? Interesting that it is stripped except for sidelites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted January 3, 2019 Author Share Posted January 3, 2019 Briarcliff was a Lozier model – wasn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I was just about to post that! Similar, but no dice. The Loziers have a bead in the center of that cowl section and the unknown car does not and the unknown's top hood angle is squared off and riveted, which likely means there's a hinge on the underside. Here's the Coker Lozier at the Atlanta Concours in 2017. And here's the yellow Lozier that Jerry Foley has owned forever. The tried to get it to come to the Atlanta Councours in 2017, but it didn't make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozierman Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Yes, Lozier had the Briarcliff model. The blue and white Lozier Briarcliff shown here is a 1911. It is owned by Fred Hoch. Corky Coker had his model J, 1910 Meadow Brook at the Atlanta meet. Next to Fred's Lozier is the 1914 Lozier (maroon) owned by Todd Lozier. We had our 1913 Lozier Fairmont touring at this Lozier gathering too, but it's not shown here. The speedster in the photo is not a Lozier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Thanks for correcting my error, Michael. And for affirming that Lozier is a dead end on this search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stude17 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 A Stoddard-Dayton Runabout? Perhaps a circa 1907 Model K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Closer, but not a match that I can see, unless the car in question has been extensively modified from stock. Mark Hyman has/had a gorgeous Model K for sale and here's a pic to compare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I think that Stude17 has nailed it; the unknown car is a Stoddard-Dayton. Stoddard-Daytons of the period have two sectors for the spark and throttle controls. However, I was unable to find a photo that shows the hand brake detent bar mounted on the outside of the lever with the teeth facing up. I think what is shown in the available photos of Stoddard-Daytons is a series of "running" design changes in the hand brake construction. The first design is shown on the unknown car (outside detent bar with the teeth facing up). The second design also has the teeth facing up, but with the brake lever designed such that it straddles the detent bar. The last design has a brake lever which straddles the detent bar, but with the teeth facing down (the post by gwells). Evidently, the designers realized that a design with the teeth facing up was a poor choice, since road dirt and stones would be more likely to cause a jam in the operation of the brake. The photo of the car with a yellow body / red frame shows the second design and the other photo shows the last design and the two sectors for the park and throttle controls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Shown is a Stoddard-Dayton (photo taken mid-1930s) which shows that the gas tank behind the seats and a long chassis with space for spare tires stacked horizontally behind the gas tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Allen, Respectfully, I am so far not fully convinced. On the Hyman car, notice these differences... The gate for the shifter is situated inside the body/frame rail. The sectors for the throttle and spark levels on the steering column are the same diameter; not so on the OP's pic. Plus these are atop the wheel on the OP's pic and beneath the wheel on the Hyman car. Much weaker-looking handle atop the brake lever on the Hyman car. Steering wheel seems smaller in diameter and the spokes have a very different cross-section. Seats on the Hyman car sit on a platform, whereas on the OP's pic they're mounted much lower. Visible edge of the seat differs greatly between the two cars. Rear edge of hood on Hyman car does not follow the cowl's form very closely. Hood on Hyman car doesn't have riveted outer hinge and has embossed ribs. It was very common during the timeframe we suppose for the unknown car to 'strip down' (remove fenders, lower seats, etc.) street vehicles to make them into track cars but it would be unusual (IMO) for a hood to be changed, seats to be changed (rather than just lowered), a steering column to be changed, etc. Not saying the unknown car isn't a Stoddard-Dayton, but I am seeing too many detail differences to feel it is based on a Model K Stoddard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Your last pic doesn't have the mismatch between the cowl and the rear of the hood. I recognize that image...Stoddard Dayton Roadster: William E. Scripps Detroit News President Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Having fun with this, as I hope everyone is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I have my doubts this is an out and out race car, more likely a road car following the race car style. It was reasonably common for the sporting set young men of this era to build, or commission a racing style car based on a slightly second hand "better" quality car. Real race cars were generally a lot more "used" looking. Often had grippy steering wheel wraps, and would never have cowl lamps or brackets. Greg in Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I would agree with you except for one thing: that "aero" oil tank with what looks like a hand pump. There's no reason for that sort of thing on a street car IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Many of the speedsters of the day had hand pumps for gas tank pressurization, less common on oil tanks but definitely, some were. Look at photos of cars with behind the seat cylindrical tanks. If there are two fillers the tank is divided into a fuel and oil compartment. Often there are two small tubes as well leading to two hand pumps. Greg in Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 After a bit of net surfing for Stoddard-Dayton images, I found a photo that shows the first design hand brake detent bar and a gated shifter than looks very similar to the unknown car. Evidently, the unknown car is an earlier race car than most of the images available online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 OP Mark, Is there any other info you can glean from where that photo was originally posted? Did the poster of the pic indicate where he or she acquired it? And you hinted that the image was not in NZ. Can you explain why you say so? Just scratching for some more clues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 31 minutes ago, 1912Staver said: Real race cars were generally a lot more "used" looking. Often had grippy steering wheel wraps, and would never have cowl lamps or brackets. Agree 100% with these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted January 4, 2019 Author Share Posted January 4, 2019 I say 'not NZ' for several reasons. First we didn't get those big expensive US cars here. The guy who posted it on a Facebook page has posted quite a few photos that are not NZ. Sorry, no more info on the source of the photo. I just feel sure it was taken in the US. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Thanks, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_a Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Joan Newton Cuneo maybe? She drove and raced lots of cars in this era, including Locomobile, White, Knox, Rainier, Pope-Hartford, and Stearns. from The Old Motor "Mad For Speed" story, Dec. 3, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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