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1948 Buick Super Convertible


geenyc

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Hello

 

Dad passed away suddenly, three days away from retirement, and was working on this car, sharing the same birth year.  It is a very sad tale losing my brother and father in a span of 5 months.  I am left to figure out what to do with this vehicle.  On one hand, there is a lot of sentimental value to be created by seeing this project through and having it pass down through generations.  On the other hand, i am not familiar with the process and have no idea what rabbit hole i would be going down by embarking on this project.  The car is currently located in Brooklyn, NY and i am getting it into one piece as i need to vacate the garage it is currently located at.

 

I know dad bought it for roughly 20K in 2010, powder coated the frame and changed the seals on the motor.  The car does not run and drive any longer but did when he bought it.  

 

Does anyone have an idea of what it would cost to fully restore this car?  Also, reputable shops that have experience with Buick?  I am open to shipping the car out of state.

 

Here are some photos as the guys start to put it together and photos dad took.

 

https://www.icloud.com/photos/#0k7T6ljQFJmuhDs6cZoDwKDAA

 

Thank you

Edited by geenyc (see edit history)
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Holy cow. That brings back memories.......

 

Your best bet will be to slowly assemble the car yourself. To have a reputable shop restore this will put you WAY upsode down.  Now, if cost is not a worry, there are shops out there.  But, the good shops will have a waiting list of peopleamd cars.

 

Keep us posted and Merry Christmas

 

Matt

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Matt - quite the project.  I am very impressed but unfortunately unlike my dad, I lack the perseverance and expertise to put it together .  Does anyone have a sense of what the car can be sold for as-is [just barebones put together into one piece]?  

 

Thank you

Edited by geenyc (see edit history)
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Condolences on your loss

 

Do you have the title?

Do you have the grille, chrome strips, lights, instruments and the like?  These small parts make a big difference when selling "as is". Have the interior & seats?

A photo of the data plate would help.

Sadly it is likely to cost more than is worth to pay someone to restore-reassemble, even before the $20K purchase price.  But a great car when restored.Ro

 

Edit

The photo of the transmission shows a 5 bolt cover, so a 40/50 series (248ci) and not the 70 series Roadmaster (320ci) 6 bolt cover [But I may be incorrect]

 

 

Edited by 1939_Buick (see edit history)
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Oh my, what a project! It doesn't look like the body has been painted yet--am I right? That is a big expense, as is the interior and I believe it is supposed to be leather upholstery on the convertibles. IF the exhaust manifold is all one piece from front to back, it is a Super. If it is three pieces one fitting inside the other, it is a Roadmaster. When a car is taken apart to the extent that this one has, it actually loses value, due to the extreme amount of labor required to put it back together. My best guess is that it would cost a minimum of $20,000 to $25,000 to paint and put this thing back together, and probably more than that. I have seen too many abandoned projects like this, but in your case it is something that could not be avoided. I am sorry to say that I don't think you will get $20,000 for it in its present state. $10,000 if you are very lucky, due to the amount of work it will require to make it a running, driving car again. If the parts are not properly organized and labeled, maybe not even 10K, because it can take hours just to find the correct nut & bolt if things are not labeled and organized. My shop has done several abandoned projects like this, but I am in Texas and you are in New York, and you don't need high transport expenses added to this. Someone locally may be interested.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

Leonard, Texas

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8 hours ago, 1939_Buick said:

 

 

Edit

The photo of the transmission shows a 5 bolt cover, so a 40/50 series (248ci) and not the 70 series Roadmaster (320ci) 6 bolt cover [But I may be incorrect]

 

 

  You are correct.  Pic 14 clearly shows the crankcase ventilation intake at the rear.  320 is at the front.  SO, a 248, and a Super.

 

  Ben

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Thank you - i received a photo of the data plate and it is indeed a Super based on my decoding.

 

I do have the title and need to take stock of the parts laying around.  I think I need to pay someone to restore it based on the above.

 

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_dc2.thumb.jpg.727fe3b43004b22906671e6d3ffa780b.jpg

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5 hours ago, geenyc said:

I do have the title and need to take stock of the parts laying around.  I think I need to pay someone to restore it based on the above.

That is may likely to cost more than it could be sold for. And that is ignoring the money it all ready.  If you can do work yourself that's different.

But if you want to keep it because it was your fathers car that's very good.

 

Photographing all the small bits will help. Likely some bits will be missing or damaged so will be money to spend for those.

 

Sadly in the state that is in now would have more appeal to a hot rodder than a restorer. A Hot rodder would be interested in the title, frame & body shell.   They would sell the drive line for a few hundred $. They would/may not be that interested in things like instruments, correct interior, correct ss trim & correct door handles and 1001 other bits that a restorer needs.

Edited by 1939_Buick (see edit history)
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My condolences on the loss of your Dad and your Brother.  This is a heartbreaking scenario and I wish you good luck.

 

At some point you have to consider that the folks who have responded are not in your area, have none or limited interest,  and are giving you good advice.   NY cars of this age would not have a title.  They would have a transferable registration in most cases.  If you truly have a title then the absolute first thing you'll need to do is get a transferable registration. Otherwise you'll be unable to transfer ownership.  This usually means the executor of your Dad's estate will have to go to a local DMV office with a death certificate and proof they are the executor and then follow the program to secure a new transferable registration. 

 

Then you have to be realistic about how to proceed on this car.  

 

On one hand to sell it as it is will result in a loss if your dad really did pay that much for it.  But it would be the quickest and easiest way to deal with the project. 

 

On the other hand if you decide to fix it you must consider that a reputable shop will want to redo just about everything that was already done in order to guarantee their results, and the costs will be extremely high.  A good quality paint job alone will run $10K , except in the NYC area I bet that is more.  Chrome replating is upwards of the paint job amount, and things will have to be shipped outside NYC to find a place that can do the work.  That alone raises risks of loss of parts and increased costs.  An interior that is done right will be in the same neighborhood and then you will have close to $50K in a vehicle before it is put back together, when similar vintage Buick convertibles that are complete and driveable are selling for between $40-60K depending on the quality of the work completed. 

 

You can have lesser quality work done.  And have the car reassembled and take the chance.  In that case you'd have to decide how far to go with the project.  If you want to keep the car and pass it down to future family members who may cherish it, then you could have the car's body reassembled now without painting it,  invest in a new wiring harness  if needed (likely if it still has original wiring) , and get the engine running.  Then take your time getting the rest of the car to meet roadworthy condition.  Since the engine did run when you father bought it chances are it will run again now.  After that the car needs to steer and stop, although some might argue it needs to steer and stop before the engine needs to run.  But I suggest it this way because given the condition of the car right now, if you decide at any point that you have to sell it, you will get your best price from a car that at least runs.

 

I am sorry to bring such bad news to the table.  

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I am very sorry to hear about your dad and brother.  This is a tough situation, and I can relate.  I'm lucky to have been able to keep one of my dad's cars and now have it on the road and enjoy it.

 

One way to look at it is, if you inherited the car, you probably won't lose money (or not much) if you spend 40-50k to get it put back together and finished, should you decide later to sell it.  The money your dad paid is a sunk cost. 

 

If the interior and chrome is at least presentable, you can have them reinstalled as-is, and save a lot of $ while still being able to drive and enjoy the car.  If you decide later to redo these items, it's easy to do without tearing the whole car apart again.

 

These are only viable options because a lot has been done to the car and it looks like a very good and solid car.  If it was a rough car just in pieces, these options would not present themselves, so all is not lost.

 

Do you have pics of chrome and interior?

Edited by lancemb (see edit history)
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I appreciate the candor, no matter how grim it may be.  I need factual information from individuals who have far more expertise in this realm than me to make an educated decision. 

 

I will be trying to take stock of parts this weekend.  

 

I have an an original title that was assigned but never registered so it is basically a bearer instrument.  

 

I understand the hourly labor premium that the tri state metro area charges and that is why i am axed to ship it south if i restore. 

 

i spoke to a gentlemen in West Palm Beach Florida, Dan Russell, operating a family owned shop with his two sons.  He explained that he will basically charge an hourly rate of $60, with weekly reports and requisitions.  

 

Assume 500 hours at $60 we are at 30K, leaving $20k of wiggle room for parts and other vendor labor to get to a $50K value yet i have a fresh “97-98” pt car per Dan.  This would be break even, or slightly underwater on a 70 year old car.  

 

Has anyone heard of this shop or can speak to its reputation?  Is 500 hours an appropriate conservative number or am i undershooting it?  I do not need a concours car.  

 

Thank you all and happy holidays. 

 

Edited by geenyc (see edit history)
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My father passed in September before we could finish my car.  Granted mine was 90% done, it has still been tough without him.  He was my right hand man.  If he was working on a car and it was in the position your is in, there is no way I could finish that in any reasonable amount of time.  Its bad enough putting a car together that you took apart and thought you documented well.  It’s completely different when you didn’t.  That takes some real skill and expertise.  I would sell what you have and move on.  I’m still considering selling his collector car that is 100% complete.  Even after they are done, they require work.

 

I would never ship a car way to be worked on without having an incredible prior relationship with whoever is doing it.

 

 

Edited by 39BuickEight (see edit history)
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22 hours ago, geenyc said:

I appreciate the candor, no matter how grim it may be.  I need factual information from individuals who have far more expertise in this realm than me to make an educated decision. 

 

I will be trying to take stock of parts this weekend.  

 

I have an an original title that was assigned but never registered so it is basically a bearer instrument.  

 

I understand the hourly labor premium that the tri state metro area charges and that is why i am axed to ship it south if i restore. 

 

i spoke to a gentlemen in West Palm Beach Florida, Dan Russell, operating a family owned shop with his two sons.  He explained that he will basically charge an hourly rate of $60, with weekly reports and requisitions.  

 

Assume 500 hours at $60 we are at 30K, leaving $20k of wiggle room for parts and other vendor labor to get to a $50K value yet i have a fresh “97-98” pt car per Dan.  This would be break even, or slightly underwater on a 70 year old car.  

 

Has anyone heard of this shop or can speak to its reputation?  Is 500 hours an appropriate conservative number or am i undershooting it?  I do not need a concours car.  

 

Thank you all and happy holidays. 

 

That seems plausible to me.  Maybe Pete Phillips can chime in again, and if you are willing to ship it to TX you may want to talk to him about assembling it for you.

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I'm not sure if it was talked about but an interior for this is going to run around 10G isn't it?  Any top bows would need to be plated as well if they were to be correct, to be the 97 to 98 point car.  What does a wire harness for this run (a correct one)?  I'm not up on Buicks,  just know those little things really add up.  

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Interior $13,500.00

this is the reason I chose to make my own

harness $1,400.00+\-

purchased new

 

I am 2.5 hrs away from you and could offer a lot of help on what goes where,etc. If I had the garage space, would offer to do. 

All sheet metal will have to come apart for paint to be done correctly. The color inside the trunk was not an original color and the interior is custom also I think. White vinyl wasnt an option. 

The wiring harness looks newer in the video.

 

 

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There is a Chapter of the Buick Club of America on Long Island. There are several members there with experience in this type of vehicle. You may want to contact the Director of that Chapter who participates in this site as MRJBuick.  You can send him a Personal Message and see if some of the local Buick Guys would be willing to help you sort your thoughts. 

 

 

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This isn't an uncommon situation. I have bought a few of these unfinished projects and never finished them myself. A couple of thoughts sometimes overlooked; the pleasure your Dad got from owning, working on, and day dreaming about that car are a value that is private and consumed at the moment. It is probably a wash on the ownership since 2010, 20 grand over 8 years, I know guys who spent that on casino trips. A pragmatic way to look at the value of the car, whatever it is assumed to be, is to figure out its percentage of the total inheritance. Hopefully it is well under 10% of what he left behind, maybe 2 or 3% if he was careful about spending on toys. New York State probably snatched more than the value of the car in taxes- that they will spend with all the discretion of a Navy sailor from the Brooklyn shipyards.

 

Watching the video, I was thinking the car is taking up $300 to $600 of monthly rental real estate in space. And it looks like it has been there a while. That's 3 to 5 thousand dollars per year for storage. I am at the other end of the state and using space at $120 per month, but I still figure that as a thousand dollars a year sunk into the extra car and not retrievable. It is costing you money right now just for that. If you own the building you are pretty well set so go back to the total inheritance again.

 

My old cars are a small part of what I own. My Wife has instructions to give any of them to relatives I have identified as qualified, as well of a couple of close friends. If they don't want any of the cars she has a list of very low sales prices to let them go for and avoid a burden. I used the term "toys" above. That's what they are and should be, not an investment to be recaptured and not a monument to posterity. My outsider opinion would be to check that some nephew wasn't drooling all over that car. If one was, give it to him. If he can afford the storage space.

 

There are a lot of good points in the replies and the topic will be read for a while. One really strong message is in here for others: The car was purchased in 2010 and the paperwork is still in the previous owner's name. Don't do stuff like that. If anyone buys an old car make it legally yours as soon as possible. Verify and legalize your ownership before you start spending time and money on a car. I bet there are cars out there owned for 30 or more years that the current owner has never titled or licensed. Imagine the state telling you the car is not yours and that it needs to be returned to the owner of record. It happens.

 

Good luck with the car. All my cars have given me a lot of pleasure and owe me nothing. I could walk away from the lot very satisfied and happy. I am lucky. Everyone around me knows I feel that way. And I am sure, under similar circumstances, it would be a relief for them to know.

Bernie

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21 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

One really strong message is in here for others: The car was purchased in 2010 and the paperwork is still in the previous owner's name. Don't do stuff like that. If anyone buys an old car make it legally yours as soon as possible. Verify and legalize your ownership before you start spending time and money on a car. I bet there are cars out there owned for 30 or more years that the current owner has never titled or licensed. Imagine the state telling you the car is not yours and that it needs to be returned to the owner of record. It happens.

 

AMEN!!!  

I learned this lesson on a 63 Corvair Spyder when I was in High School!  It did not end well for me!   More recently, when I picked up that 92 Wagon the car was titled in DC.  There were two owners listed on the title, although only an address for one of them.  The car was being sold in NY by a nephew who had no legal claim to the car.  The NY DMV took two full months to send me a title in my name, and inquiries were answered that they were researching the previous DC owner's claim to owning the vehicle.  Cannot  imagine how that would have turned out if one or both of them had passed in the interim.  

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Re: titling

 

Dad started working on the car then Sandy hit in 2012 and wiped out tens of cars.  The restoration went on the back burner as my brother and father tried to rebuild.  

 

In 2017 my brother got brain cancer and again the car got put to the wayside.  He survived only 11 months, shy of his 47th birthday. 

 

The intent was always  to finish the car and never to leave it in the sellers name but circumstances dictated otherwise.  

 

Re: the car

 

I spoke to another gentlemen today in Ft Myers - Michael Case from Classic Auto Restoration.  

 

His rate is $72 an hour.  They offer consignment after inventory checkin labor of 8-10 hours and a 10% fee upon disposition.  This is a much bigger shop than Russell with 40 cars in process and 15 employees.  An enclosed transporter would run 1.4K give or take as long as all of the parts fit within the car as to not take up 2 slots.  For 2K i would basically have the car in a position to sell.  From all my research, and this gentlemen’s commentary, this car should trade somewhere in the 20’s.  But the market dictates what the car is worth. 

 

 I think anything less than that and i am leaning to restore and then keep or sell, but embarking on a project nonetheless.  

 

The comment above regarding space, the garage is 1800 a month.  I need to vacate it as soon as possible so gestation there is not an option.  It is expensive to let the project linger. 

 

Dad was in the body shop business for 30 years.  He was supremely loyal to his workers and they are repaying the favor now helping me bring the car into saleable condition.  

 

Edited by geenyc (see edit history)
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A quick search on Mecum’s site shows 1948 Super Convertibles bid from around $29-$53k over the last year or so.  Very wide range, but the cars aren’t as always as good as they look in pictures or on TV.  I imagine the $53k car probably has a $10-$15k+ paint job and $10k+ in chrome.  Given that, getting $20k for one that is disassembled and not painted could be tough.   If you had free storage and the time to wait, that would be different.   There is someone out there looking for a project like this, somewhere.

Edited by 39BuickEight (see edit history)
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4 hours ago, geenyc said:

Re: the car

I spoke to another gentlemen today in Ft Myers - Michael Case from Classic Auto Restoration.  

His rate is $72 an hour.  They offer consignment after inventory checkin labor of 8-10 hours and a 10% fee upon disposition. 

The hourly rate is only part of it.  How long they will take to do a task in unknown

Do they or others have knowledge of post war GM cars?  Or 1940's straight 8 Buick's.

Do you just want it assembled?  With a few crates of left over parts.  Some parts will be missing/damaged. Running & stopping?

Agreeing the exact scope of work, what you expect and what they understand the work to be, is the hard part.  Time & money can soon run away.

 

But as posts above, the documentation must be 100% sorted out first.  If the car is an another state that may be harder.

 

Edited by 1939_Buick (see edit history)
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I've worked in a restoration shop.  No offense to any of them, but remember that the craftsmen employed are working by the hour, so time means nothing to them.  It's not that they would intentionally drag out a task, it's just that it doesn't matter to them how long the task takes.

 

Some people work fast, some people work slow.  I'm one of the slow ones, and when I'm doing a job for someone else make adjustments to my hours accordingly.

 

Another member of this forum put it well.  At the end of the week, look at the hours spent and the tasks completed.  If they don't match, adjust the hours accordingly to be fair to the customer.  I would say most shops don't do that.

 

Restoration, as Captain Obvious would state, has become very, very expensive, particularly if you don't do your own work......

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4 hours ago, trimacar said:

I've worked in a restoration shop.  No offense to any of them, but remember that the craftsmen employed are working by the hour, so time means nothing to them.  It's not that they would intentionally drag out a task, it's just that it doesn't matter to them how long the task takes.

 

Some people work fast, some people work slow.  I'm one of the slow ones, and when I'm doing a job for someone else make adjustments to my hours accordingly.

 

Another member of this forum put it well.  At the end of the week, look at the hours spent and the tasks completed.  If they don't match, adjust the hours accordingly to be fair to the customer.  I would say most shops don't do that.

 

Restoration, as Captain Obvious would state, has become very, very expensive, particularly if you don't do your own work......

 

 

Man oh Man, can I relate to this story! In my opinion, restorations and or modifications have become a thing of the past unless as trimacar points out you are able to do the work yourself. At $60 to $100+ per hour one can get underwater very quickly! Many of the smaller and well qualified shops are closing as clients for high dollar restorations for medium dollar projects are harder and harder to find. In my opinion this is very sad as many worthy  “project” cars will remain just that, “project cars” and set with continued deterioration or just be scrapped! Sad Sad!

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I can't figure out how to get the video down-loaded, but if the interior is there and is new, then it's just a matter of installing it and installing the wiring harness, $1500 for the wiring harness purchase and another $1500 to install same. Looks like engine is done and ready to be hooked up. I can get a good paint job done around here for $6000-7000, maybe less since the primer looks like it is already done. Chrome plating is expensive and I'm not sure how much of that has been done on this car, but if you are okay with just polishing it up or just doing the bumpers, that is another way to save some $$$. The car doesn't have to be 100% restored to be driven and enjoyed.  Purchasing and installing a new convertible top will be around $2000. Again, you can put it up and down manually if you want to save $$$ and not get the hydraulic cylinders done, but the windows need to work and those are probably hydraulic and on the same pump.

If the upholstery material has not been purchased yet, you can save some $$ by not doing it in leather; do it in vinyl instead. Depends on how correct you want it to be and what your goals are for the car.

I just purchased this unrestored gem over the weekend, so I have an original to go by now, for reference!

Ben Bruce and I are only about 130 miles apart. Maybe he and I could split the work, as my shop is completely booked up and out of room until the BCA national meet is over with in mid-June. I can get you some storage that is a lot cheaper than what you are paying in N.Y.  And the guy who paints cars for me currently has room for another project.

 

Pete Phillips

Leonard, Texas

1946 model 76-C (newly-acquired)

and other Buicks...

IMG_0841.JPG

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A member of the Portland Area Chapter of the BCA had a fully restored 1948 Super convertible.  It had leather seats with cloth seating surfaces.  I believe that it was a 400 point car at the National Meet in Portland in 2014. You might save on upholstery costs by going that route. The member has since sold the car, but he may have some photos.  I'll check.

Edited by BuickBob49
Typo (see edit history)
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On 12/31/2018 at 2:13 PM, Pete Phillips said:

I just purchased this unrestored gem over the weekend, so I have an original to go by now, for reference!

Ben Bruce and I are only about 130 miles apart. Maybe he and I could split the work, as my shop is completely booked up and out of room until the BCA national meet is over with in mid-June. I can get you some storage that is a lot cheaper than what you are paying in N.Y.  And the guy who paints cars for me currently has room for another project.

 

Pete Phillips

Leonard, Texas

1946 model 76-C (newly-acquired)

and other Buicks...

You seem to have a knack of finding late 40's standard shift Buick's in desirable body styles in good condition.  Looks good. 😊🤠

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  • 1 month later...
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Hello LeBaron Bonney has an interior kit for this model check online for current price and request samples. I Recently had the top chrome for my 49 Super redone it was about 1300$ for all 12 pieces which would be similar to your car,also bought a new top also available from LB or ARO 2000 once again check online for pricing.Hope this helps and best of luck.

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