REPORTS ON A 1914 HUMBERETTE RESTORATION

[John S.]

Mike, I hope you are feeling better. You are a good man. God Bless . John

[Mike Macartney]

Thanks to all of you for your kindness. The steroids are certainly doing something as I am feeling a lot better. The problem with a flare up of COPD is that it happens slowly and you don't realise how bad you are getting until you can hardly breath or walk any distance at all. Normally I start feeling quite sleepy by 8pm, but tonight, or should I say this morning, as it is now 1:00am, I can't get to sleep and am wide awake! So I thought I would write a post. I spent most of the day in the workshop. In the last couple of weeks I have been doing a bit of cleaning up on the lathe and getting ready for the arrival of the MT5 to 5c adapter for the headstock spindle, to get ready for making the collet drawbar. The gear train was covered in black oil and grease and so I gave it a good clean. You maybe amused as to what I found underneath the muck.

 

 

A castellated nut of the incorrect thread holding one gear on its shaft and a hose clip holding the intermediate gear in place. One tooth is missing from the large gear, but to date it seems to be driving OK with out any slippage.

 

 

The lower gear seems to have the correct knurled nut holding the gear on its shaft. I will make new nuts to replace the hose clip and the castle nut.

 

 

The MT5 to 5c adapter arrived. Unfortunately it does not fit. It looks as if Woodhouse and Mitchell used a different taper in the end of the spindle.

 

 

I had also bought a MT5 to MT3 reducer for the spindle and that does not fit either. They both go hallway in and will go no further as the taper is less of an angle that the normal Morse taper. Well, never mind - perhaps it will give me more lathe practise if I have a go at making a couple of adapters to fit my lathe.

 

I am pleased to be back messing about in the workshop again.

 

 

 

 

[JV Puleo]

That's a bummer. I'm very surprised. Take a look at Lathes.co.uk and perhaps ask Tony, the owner of the site, if he knows what the taper is. That is the "go to" site for information on archaic machines for both the UK and the US. There are ways to go about sorting this out but none are as easy and straightforward as just buying the part.

 

Oh... and Woodouse & Mitchell are reputed to have built a very good machine.

Edited September 15, 2019 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

Hope the steroids continue to work their magic on you!  Glad you're back in the shop and I'll be joining you soon (well, in my shop).  

 

[Mike Macartney]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 1:57 AM, JV Puleo said:

Take a look at Lathes.co.uk and perhaps ask Tony, the owner of the site, if he knows what the taper is.

 

I'll take a photo of the lathe and send it to Tony with the question. On his site for Woodhouse & Mitchell lathes there is not a photo of a lathe quite the same as mine. Thanks Joe for the information.

[Mike Macartney]

13 hours ago, Luv2Wrench said:

Glad you're back in the shop and I'll be joining you soon (well, in my shop).  

 

Jeff, your welcome anytime. I could do with some help, although it's a long way to come for the day!!!! 

[Mike Macartney]

The Lathe Spindle Taper

 

I have had a very detailed reply from Tony at Lathes.co.uk regarding the taper in the lathe spindle - I quote

 

"It's one of those machine-tool mysteries - why did the makers of most lathes never state what the real taper in the spindle was? Unfortunately, it's often their "own", sold as a hardened, reduction, slip-in sleeve - and bored to take a Morse taper of course. So, it might be that you would have to measure the taper and have one made. However,  the taper could be a Jarno or - very unlikely - Brown and Sharpe (details of these tapers below)."
 

Tony also gave detailed information on how to check the taper.

 

 

My Woodhouse and Mitchell lathe. (before having a tidy up!)

 

Being stuck in the house while the steroids got to work I had looked at a few videos on taper turning and decided on having a go at making a 5c adapter to fit my lathe spindle. If it didn't work, I wouldn't have lost much, only my time. Anyway, it would be good practise for me.

 

 

This is the 5MT to 5c adapter, I got from the states, with a 5c collet pushed into it. Note that my hands are reasonably clean after not spending much time in the workshop!

 

Before looking at any videos, or getting the reply from Tony, I tried to work out the taper for myself.

 

 

I measured the large diameter.

 

 

Measured the length of the taper and then measured the small diameter inside the spindle with a pair of inside calliper's.

 

After remembering, from my school days, the mnemonic "Some People Have Curly Brown Hair To Prevent Baldness". I wondered where I could find some log tables. Easy, now with the internet, there are easy to use calculators. No need to remember this maths stuff that I haven't used for years. The angle worked out at just under 2 degrees. I looked on the site below to see if I could find any standard taper like the one in the spindle on my lathe.

 

http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/Tapers.html

 

No such luck!

 

 

I set the top slide, I think it actually called the compound rest, over to 2 degrees.

 

 

By fitting a round ended piece of tool steel into a boring bar and fitted the boring bar into the tool post. I wound the compound slide up to the small end of the taper and wound in the cross slide until it touched the inside of the taper. The dial on the cross slide was then set to zero. I wound the cross slide back out and then wound the compound slide back to near the largest end of the spindle taper and wound the cross slide back in until the round end of the steel in the boring bar just touched the taper. This time the dial showed it was something like 20 thou out. I slightly loosed the compound slide clamping nuts and tapped the slide with my hand to 'nudge it' by 10 thou. And went through the process again. Eventually, after about eight go's I had the angle accurate to 1 thou over 3". I tightened the compound slide nuts and checked again just to make sure it hadn't moved.

 

 

I then fitted the 3-jaw chuck on and started on turning a taper.

 

 

Getting somewhere near the size.

 

 

The taper was now too long so I started machining some material off the end. To be continued tomorrow, with a bit of luck and a following wind. . . .

[JV Puleo]

Boy Mike... you've come a very long way in a very short time. This would be, under any circumstances, a challenging job. That said, if you can get the taper right so that it fits tightly in the spindle, you press it in and bore it for the collets in place. The only tricky part is the taper at the mouth of the adapter and I'm sure you can look that up.

 

OD of the collet is 1.25" and the taper is 10 degrees. The thread is unusual but it's 20tpi so it is relatively easy to single point it.

 

More editing... you've got me thinking here. I'd bore it most of the way so the hole was absolutely concentric with the spindle then ream it. It turns out that a standard ball joint reamer is also 10 degrees....Now I find that there are several different tapers used for ball joints. Perhaps boring the taper for the collet is best if you can get a really good finish. If it is right it will be perfectly concentric with the spindle.

Edited September 17, 2019 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Mike Macartney]

Thanks Joe. Lets hope it fits when I have finished it and that it is reasonably accurate.

 

 

I had found this 5c collet drawing that I was going to use.

 

20 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

. . .  you've got me thinking here. I'd bore it most of the way so the hole was absolutely concentric with the spindle then ream it. It turns out that a standard ball joint reamer is also 10 degrees....Now I find that there are several different tapers used for ball joints. Perhaps boring the taper for the collet is best if you can get a really good finish. If it is right it will be perfectly concentric with the spindle.

 

The only reaming I have ever done before has been on king pins with an in-line reamer. I looked at a video and learnt a few things about it. e.g. not too fast and don't turn it backwards if it got stuck. I had a practise in a bit of steel with a new reamer that I had, it got stuck and started turning in drill chuck. It 'picked up' as you can see in the photo. Should I have not fitted it in the drill chuck and used a tap wrench instead?

 

 

Do you have any tips on reaming, before I attempt to bore and ream for the 5c collets?

 

Am I correct in thinking that the 10 degree angle for closing the collet, does not have to be quite as accurate as the spindle tape,r as it is only being used to close up the collet?

 

Before I started doing anymore this morning on the spindle adapter I thought it would be an idea to adjust the gib strip screws on the compound slide before I did anymore machining on the taper.

 

 

One of the knobs is missing on the cross slide which made it difficult to turn the slide nice and smoothly. I was going to make another knob. When I opened the bottom shed this morning where my Clarke drill press/mill is I noticed that perhaps I could 'nick' one o the handles off this machine for the time being. The adjustment and the extra knob made it a lot easier for machining.

 

 

I only took off 0.001" at a time because I did not want to make the taper too smaller diameter.

 

 

When I was happy with the size I cleaned the few machining marks with 400 grit emery cloth.

 

 

Removed the chuck. Blued up the taper ready to try in the spindle. I think I must have been getting excited at this point - hence the fuzzy photo!

 

 

It nearly fits but as use can see it is touching at the bottom of the taper. Would it be OK to lap this taper into the headstock spindle, or is this a no, no?

 

I would like to also try and make an adapter for the spindle to MT3, so for the present I will leave the slide set up on the angle it is set at present.

[JV Puleo]

Try putting a slight chamfer on the bottom edge. Back in the chuck, indicated and just hold a file up against it to get a slightly beveled edge.

As to reaming the hole...the trick is to get it very close to the finished size first. If the finished size is 1.250 I would ream it to 1.235 or 1.240. That would give you only .015 or .010 to remove with the reamer. If the finished hole is tight, it may be necessary to lap the inside. It would be safe to do that using the tail stock since the lap will follow the hole and it's just clearance for the collet body. A lot depends on ow good a finish you are getting with the boring bar. That may be tricky and i might cut off a piece of that bar, drill a 1" hole in it, and practice boring it smooth. I'm guessing you don't know exactly what the metal is...that isn't important if you figure out what speed and what tool to use first but turning the taper is such a PIA that I'd want to know what works before starting on the finished hole. This will also answer the question of how to do the 10-degree taper because if you have worked out how to get a smooth finish, making that taper in the adapter with the compound will assure virtually perfect alignment.

 

Actually, measure the inside of the 5C adapter you bought to get the actual size of the hole you need. It is probably a little larger than 1.250 and may be as much as .050 larger. It that is the case, you'll have to bore it to finished size but it also means that the size, to the thousandth, isn't critical. I have to say this is taking on a real machinist's job. I've only done it once before and I was never able to get the adapter closer than .003 (though that was a long time ago and I think I could do better now).

 

And yes, when you get it very close I think lapping it into the spindle is a good idea. The piece will only be used on that lathe. You're not the original manufacturer who had to make pieces to fit every machine they sold...it only has to fit yours. The spindle may be hardened - the lathe is new enough for that - which is even better because all the material removed will be on the adapter but you simply can't remove enough metal with lapping compound to make a measurable difference. If you do that, do it before you bore the hole for the collet.

 

That's a good idea about the MT3 adapter... even if you don't finish it right away, having set up the taper now is the time to do that part.

Edited September 18, 2019 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Mike Macartney]

Thanks, yet again, Joe for some excellent and valuable advice, it is much appreciated. I will do my best.

[Mike Macartney]

After reading Joe's post last night, I thought that before I did want he recommended, refitting the chuck and chamfering the end, I would try and think of a way of checking that the angle of the compound slide was as accurate as I could get it.

 

I wondered if I insulated the boring bar from the tool post, I could use a 12 volt light bulb and car battery to let me know when the boring bar was just touching the inside of the taper, inside the spindle. Touching light ON, not touching light OFF.

 

 

I tried the idea out this morning, using paper around the boring bar to insulate it. It worked well. It was a lot better than trying to 'feel' when the probe on the boring bar was touching.

 

 

I checked the reading on the start of the taper.

 

 

And again on the end of the taper. It was nearly 6 thou out over the length of the taper.

 

After loosening the compound slide nut and tapping the slide round I eventually managed to get it accurate to within 3 thou.

 

 

The light would go 'on' and 'off' with only half a thou movement on the cross slide dial.

 

Now, to refit the chuck, chamfer the end, and machine a little material off the taper.

 

 

It only needed a tiny bit off the taper.

 

 

I took the metal out of the chuck and turned around to see what the fit was like. Pretty good.

 

 

Put some blue on the taper and tried it again in the spindle. As you can see it has 'scrape' marks in various places along the taper. OK, lets try some fine grinding paste.

 

 

It lapped in very easily, and after cleaning, fitted very well and tight into the spindle taper. I thinks that's enough for today - I don't want to push my luck!

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Mike Macartney
wrong word typed (see edit history)

[chistech]

Way to think out of the box mike! Sometimes the “light” just comes on. Sorry, I couldn’t help myself!😂

[Mike Macartney]

Well, at least it made me laugh out loud. Well done.

[JV Puleo]

WOW!! What a good idea. I'm going to copy that one.

 

j

[Mike Macartney]

Very pleased to hear that I have managed to help you, Joe, for a change, after you have helped me so much with my machining learning. I got the idea from checking the opening point of contact points when checking the ignition on my motorcycles. I used to use a thin cigarette rolling paper to find out when the points were just opening. At one time I gave up smoking for a few years, didn't have a cigarette paper handy, so used a bulb and battery instead.

[Mike Macartney]

Have had a bit of luck with Humberette engine parts.

 

I can't remember whether, or not, I mentioned about some Humberette engine parts that somebody found under the bench of a late Humberette owner. An email was sent by a Humber Register member to all known Humberette owners about an engine casing and flywheels that had been found. As soon as I received the email I contacted the person to say I was interested but got a reply back to say that they had already been promised to somebody else. That was 6-months ago. Last week, out of the blue, I got an email saying did I still want the parts for £50. I emailed back immediately saying YES PLEASE! I paid and arranged to have them collected by TNT. Guess what - TNT lost the flywheels! After much pestering of TNT, they managed to find the missing flywheels and delivered them to me this week.

 

 

The aluminium casting are much better than the ones on my engine.

 

 

The main problem is going to be trying to remove the corroded studs and other steel parts from the aluminium castings.

 

 

I think the castings themselves will clean up OK.

 

 

The flywheels have been split from the main shafts and the front main shaft is missing. But at least I have some spare flywheels if the 'bolting up' of my flywheels to the main shaft does not work for some unknown reason. I look at the purchase of these flywheels as a bit of an insurance policy!

 

Being laid up the other week and not being capable of doing much, I spent a fair bit of time on eBay looking for bargains,  not a good idea! I happened to buy, very cheaply, the following 40 taper, with 5/8" BSW drawbar thread, collet chucks for my old Archdale milling machine. I have looked on the internet to see if I can find out what collets may fit these chucks but can't find anything similar. Can anybody suggest what they may be and would similar collets in other sizes be available? Or are they now extinct and hence why the tooling I bought was extremely cheap!?!

 

 

No collet came with this tool.

 

 

One collet and sleeve came with this tool.

 

 

This came with just one collet.

 

 

Again, just with this collet.

 

 

This is what the collet looks like when removed from the chuck.

[JV Puleo]

It looks like whoever owned that flywheel had the same problem with the rivets coming loose.

Are there any identifying numbers on the collet you have?

 

In thinking about it, I'd just get a 40 taper ER collet holder. The ER collets are readily available and cheap. In the long run that would be easier, and probably cheaper than searching for a set of obscure collets. The taper is NMTB 40. CAT 40 is the same taper but doesn't have the straight section on the end of the taper. It does have a threaded hole and I think it's the same thread as the NMTB taper. The CAT holders often have a button screwed into the end for a quick change unit. You don't want that...I've got a few that I've been unable to get the button out of. They might need a slightly longer drawbar but I wouldn't know about that unless I tried one.

Edited September 20, 2019 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Mike Macartney]

Yes, it looks as if it could have been a common problem with this engine.

I will have a look at the collets, in the morning, to see if there are any identifying numbers. I don't think there were, as I would have probably taken a photo of them if they were there.

[r1lark]

Good score on those engine parts Mike!

 

I would have been pretty upset about the shipper losing those rare flywheels, glad they finally found them. 

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

Mike, I have a friend that is a mechanic at a dealership. He told me a while back that to remove steel bolts or studs from aluminum is to put idadine on them and let sit at least an hour. Then they come right out. It's worth a try. Mike

[Spinneyhill]

3 hours ago, Mike "Hubbie" Stearns said:

Mike, I have a friend that is a mechanic at a dealership. He told me a while back that to remove steel bolts or studs from aluminum is to put idadine on them and let sit at least an hour. Then they come right out. It's worth a try. Mike

What is idadine?

[Laughing Coyote]

iodine?

[mike6024]

Very interesting. Because that's the same problem rebuilders of Alfa Romeo engines have. You cannot remove the studs from the aluminum block without stripping out the threads.

 

They say EDM  (Electrical Discharge Machining) can be used. And there are machine shops that have this device. And it's not necessarily too expensive, maybe $50 to remove a broken bolt or broken tap in an aluminium casting. And supposedly the aluminum remains undamged, looking like it was freshly tapped.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[mike6024]

Here's another suggestion from another forum: "use a "Rosebud" oxy/acet torch tip to heat up the aluminum base area around the specific stud being pulled just before removal..."

[Bloo]

38 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

Very interesting. Because that's the same problem rebuilders of Alfa Romeo engines have. You cannot remove the studs from the aluminum block without stripping out the threads.

 

Oh yes you can! and I have done it, more than once after I figured out how. The head studs might still be kind of tough, but not impossible.

 

Put something on the stud that can turn it. Nuts, vise grip, stud extractor, whatever. It does need to have a bite on the stud but does not need to be capable of much torque. Hold a slight bit of torque against your implement of destruction, whatever it is. Not much, don't try to break it loose or unscrew it, just lean on it a wee bit. Play an acetylene torch all around the threaded area. Keep the torch moving! (because aluminum melts suddenly, without warning). Cover a fairly wide area, because you don't want to stress or warp anything. just keep playing that torch around and get the area of the stud a little hotter and hotter as you go. Eventually, you will feel your turning device start to release the slight pressure under your hand. Play the torch a little more and it will start to turn. When it starts to fall away, heat just a wee bit more, then get rid of the torch quick so you don't have to stop turning (it helps to have either a second person or a torch stand). Once it starts turning do not stop turning until it is all the way out!

 

Penetrating oil can help. The best penetrating oil in the world, when heat is involved (and maybe when it isn't) is Mopar Rust Penetrant. Don't overdo it though, any excess oil going to burn....

 

Don't think of this like you would think of putting brute force (or shock) on an easy-out or stuck bolt to break up rust. Think more of the ocean destroying a rock outcropping over several thousand years, not doing much, but never letting up either.

 

Works on Alfas (and lots of other aluminum things). I can't guarantee the threads will survive, but they usually do, and if they were ok before you started this process they will probably be fine. Have fun.

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Interesting... PM Heldt's 1912 book on Gasoline Engine Design states that you should never thread steel directly into aluminum so this has been a known problem for a very long time. When RR wanted to attach something to an aluminum casting it either used through-bolts or threaded a permanent bronze liner into the hole.

[mike6024]

Here's some info on the EDM process if anyone is interested.

 

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/101_Projects_Porsche_911/95-Tapx/95-Tapx.htm

 

and here is a pic where the threaded hole in aluminum in the base of an Alfa block has received a stainless steel threaded insert.

[Mike Macartney]

Wow - what a lot to take in and research. Thanks guys. The EDM process looks very interesting, but could be rather expensive, with so many steel parts to remove from the aluminium castings. I hadn't even thought much about removing the studs and other steel parts yet. I just put some penetrating oil on the steel parts and put the crankcase to one side, until I get around to doing something with it, after I have finished the crank, flywheels and conrods.

[Mike Macartney]

16 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

In thinking about it, I'd just get a 40 taper ER collet holder. The ER collets are readily available and cheap

 

The problem that I have, with where the old Archdale Mill is in the workshop, is that I can't remove the 5/8 BSW drawbar from the machine, because the ceiling in the workshop is too low to remove it. If the worst comes to the worst, and I have to replace it with a M16 or 5/8 UNC drawbar I may have to have a hole cut in the roof and a cover made to stop the rain coming in. I'll keep looking and see if a 40 taper 5/8 BSW drawbar thread ER collet holder comes up for sale.

[Mike Macartney]

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 4:51 PM, JV Puleo said:

Are there any identifying numbers on the collet you have?

 

I had a good look at all the 40 taper collet chucks that I bought on eBay. Unfortunately, none of the collets or holders have any numbers or writing on them at all.

 

Not a lot got done yesterday. It was probably the last day of the year that we will have some decent sunshine and warm weather. As we have hardly been out in the V8 MGB this year, we decided to go out for lunch in it. We didn't go that far, just to a local pub a few miles away . . .

 

 

The Banningham Crown.

 

I managed to get a bit done to the 5c collet adapter before we left.

 

 

Skinned the outside diameter, bevelled the edge, centre drilled and drilled a hole right through the adapter

 

 

I then drilled the hole out to 15/16" with the largest drill I have. I thought that if the taper I had made could hold the adapter while I drilled this hole the taper must be OK. No one was more surprised than me that it did not move at all. At some time in the future I shall have to try and make something to hold the threaded ring that holds the chucks on the spindle. It rattles around annoyingly while you are machining.

 

Another item I managed to buy on eBay was this 12" face plate with an L0 fitting. It came off a Colchester lathe and looks as if it has had very little work. . . .

 

 

. . . . just a little surface rust that I need to clean off when I manage to have enough strength to carry it up to the workshop!

[JV Puleo]

That looks really good Mike. If you do everything to the adapter while it is in the spindle it has come out concentric. I'd measure the inside of the adapter you have and work to those dimensions.

[Mike Macartney]

Thanks Joe. As I wanted to also make an adapter for 3MT, and did not want to move the angle on the compound slide, until I had machined the taper on the second adapter. I thought I would see if the 3-jaw chuck would fit on the spindle with the half finished 5c adapter still inside the spindle taper. As luck would have it - it fitted without having to remove the 5c adapter. 

 

After that bit of luck everything else went 'pear shaped'. Even again, just now, trying to 'Photoshop' the photos! I will explain tomorrow when I may have better luck. One photo is OK, so here it is.

 

 

First problem. The cross slide would not go in far enough for machining the taper when using a centre to hold the 'free' end. Looking back, perhaps I should have used a longer bit of bar to machine?

[Mike Macartney]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 4:51 PM, Mike Macartney said:

After that bit of luck everything else went 'pear shaped'

 

 

As I started machining the taper nothing seemed to happen. "Strange" I thought. Then I realised that the cutting tool had 'pushed' the bar into the chuck jaws and away from the centre in the tailstock.

 

 

It also slipped rotationally in the 3-jaw chuck. Perhaps I should have cleaned off the rust before I fitted it in the chuck?

 

I gave up for the day feeling rather dejected.

 

On the way back to the house I went into the bottom workshop to see if I could find anything that I could use for a thrust bearing to use against the gearbox end of the headstock spindle.

 

 

The gearbox end of the headstock spindle.

 

I found these two things that maybe of use.

 

 

A collar and a tapered roller bearing. It was an unknown 'old stock' BMW wheel bearing that my daughter was throwing away. I had 'squirreled it away' in a cupboard a few years ago, as I thought it was too good to chuck away. I noted the measurements in my note book, with the intention of sketching out how to work out a locking device for the 5c collets.

 

The next day - things got better.

 

 

I checked the length of the taper needed by holding up the MT5 to MT3 taper adapter that I had bought and decided that the scrap bit of bar that I was going to use was too short to hold successfully in the chuck. I looked for another bit of bar to use.

 

 

I found a nice length of roughly the diameter I needed. This time, I removed the worst of the rust before turning the bar around and fitting it in the chuck.

 

 

I new that with this length of bar in a 3-jaw chuck I was never going to get it running true. I used a dial indicator to get it running as true as I could get it. I think it was around 15 thou out, better than I thought.

 

 

So as not to put too much pressure on the bar I only took a couple of 5 thou cuts of the end of the bar to face the end.

 

 

I then drilled the end with a centre drill so that I could steady that end of the bar in the tailstock with a centre while I cut the taper.

 

I have run out of space for more photos, so I will continue this post later.

[Mike Macartney]

I got on yesterday with cutting the second adapter for the spindle taper on my big lathe. . . .

 

 

. . . .  while the compound slide was still set up for the taper angle of the inside of the spindle.

 

 

I found that by moving the cutting tool in 10 thou and taking a cut. Checking where the maximum diameter of the spindle taper was. Then taking another 10 thou cut and checking where the max diameter was again I could work out how much material I needed to take off with the cross slide. A 10 thou cut equalled 8mm further up the taper.

 

 

I'm slowly getting there!

 

 

Two outside tapers done. One for 5c collets and one to machine for number 3 Morse taper.

 

 

While I was at it, I thought, as an insurance policy, I would cut a third taper, in case I messed up when boring out the centres of the adapters. If it is not needed I could always make it into a spindle adapter for a MT2 taper.

 

Thinking about the bearing for the other end of the headstock spindle I wondered if an old BMW 2002 clutch release bearing would fit. I asked daughter Fay, if she had one in her 02 & CS second hand parts store, she said that she had some new 3-series thrust races that she takes out of clutch kits when she turns the clutch kits in to ones for the 2002 5-speed overdrive gearbox conversions.

 

 

This is what she came up with.

 

 

I tried it on the gearbox end of the headstock spindle and it seems as if it will work.

 

Hopefully, when I eventually get out into the workshop this morning, I can start boring out the inside of the 5c adapter.

 

Where does the time go when you are enjoying yourself!

[Mike Macartney]

. . .  continued attempts to make my machining a bit more accurate before I do anymore work on the engine.

 

 

I finished machining the outside taper, of the third adapter, for the headstock spindle of my big lathe. Hopefully, I won't need any more than these three.

 

I then removed the 3-jaw chuck and set the lathe up for boring out the centre of the first adapter to take the 5c collets.

 

 

One thing I have found really annoying is this threaded ring. . . .

 

 

With no chuck on the spindle, to hold it tight, it rattles about like glass milk bottles in a metal crate!  I shall have to think of a way to make something to stop the rattling.

 

 

I kept boring, until the 5c collet nearly fitted, then machined out only half a thou at a time, until it eventually slid in nicely up to the taper of the collet.

 

Now to cut the taper that closes the collet.

 

 

Before I started machining the taper I tried to measure the MT5 to 5c adapter that I had bought, (the one that didn't fit the spindle). Easier said than done with the lack of measuring equipment I have. I knew that the taper of the 5c collet should be 10 degrees and assumed that the angle of the taper should be slightly less to help close up the jaws of the collet. I settled on cranking the compound slide over by just over 9 degrees. I could not check the angle with a 12V light bulb, as I had done as previously with the spindle taper, as I had nothing with which to hold the MT5 to 5c adapter in the lathe.

 

 

Well, the collet fits. I will not know if it clamps up until I have made the drawbar. When I originally pushed the spindle adapter in, the two black felt tip pen lines where lined up, so in the machining process it has rotated a bit. Hopefully it won't when it has a drawbar for the collet.

 

 

To stop the collet rotating in the adapter it needs a peg, for the slot in the collet. I found a M3 'grub screw' that I think will do. I must have been tired by this time as I couldn't think of a way of holding the adapter to drill and tap the hole! After coming inside and having a cuppa, I realised that there would be no problem in clamping the adapter in the milling machine vice. I will have a go at drilling and tapping for this screw tomorrow, as long as I have an M3 tap. I have ordered the seamless tube, for making the drawbar, that should be with me next week.

 

 

The adapter seems to fit fairly tightly, as I had to use a long length of wood down the spindle, and a mallet to get it out.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Mike Macartney
missing words and photo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

MIke...3mm is the right size. mine using a 3mm dowel pin but I see no reason why a grub screw wouldn't work just as well.

 

jp

[wyankee]

For the threaded ring, is there any way to use a large rubber O ring to stop the rattle?

[Mike Macartney]

I haven't got an O ring large enough - but you have given me an idea.

[Mike Macartney]

The idea was to use some 25mm thick sheet dense black foam that I had to make a disc to screw into the thread of the outer threaded ring. When I went to look for it I could not find it!?! The I remembered about two years ago I gave the last of it to somebody to help them out. I'll have to have a look to see what else I have that may work.