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Questions about an old car

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Here's a picture of another 1907 Duer taken from another AACA thread here, under pre-WWII Photos. It was probably taken in 1914 in Chicago but vehicle is 1907.

 

Just copied it here because I came across it and it's a nice photo, and the same make.

 

 

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2 hours ago, trimacar said:

 

 

Now, if your comment concerns the AACA forum and questions about computer codes and electronics, I agree, the forum is drifting away from true antique cars and lots of comments about power accessories and computer systems.  Big bone of contention and discussion, but discussing how the power top switch works on a 1992 Whatsit Gogomobile is not my idea of an antique car forum.

 

 

That and scrapping all gas powered cars and forcing me to plug in an electric rubbed me the wrong way. But I'll be long dead before that deal hits. Bob

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49 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

 

 

That and scrapping all gas powered cars and forcing me to plug in an electric rubbed me the wrong way. But I'll be long dead before that deal hits. Bob

 

I am confused by your anti-AACA comments. AACA maintains the forum for discussion of all antique cars. Yes, there are some hobbyists who like newer cars but there are also plenty of folks interested in the oldest anqique cars in AACA and on the AACA forum as well.  While there are lots of clubs that specialize in certain different aspects of the hobby, AACA is truly a "big tent" organization that is accepting of all antique automobiles.

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I am very impressed with the ability of AACA to survive and thrive. The late Nickle Era cars I have loved for 70 years were just 20 year old undesirable used cars back then. It is a brilliant move to classify 25 year old used cars as "antique". It brings a fresh stock of cars and owners into contact with the much older machinery. Love happens ! And hey ! my '93 Cadillac 60 Special will make the cut next year ! YaHOOO !!!   - Carl

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I don't have it in front of me, nor do I have a good index. However, the "Antique Automobile" had a really nice high wheel issue back in the '60s as I recall. I treasure my copy. 

 

Okay, i couldn't just let it go, I went and found my copy. March 1963, V 27, No 2.

A lot of good background on high wheelers in general

 

In the early car crowd, there is a very devoted sub-group that loves their one and two cylinder pre'16s. There are several good size tours every year (for the past few decades) that are well attended. High wheel cars are not the most desirable, but do participate in good numbers (sometimes). There was an effort a couple years ago to form a high wheel club, but I guess it failed. At least the web site has been basically dead for nearly four years now. Of the many (about fifty if I recall correctly) ((I was off a bit, that issue lists 77 manufactures!)) different manufacturers of high wheel cars, the Sears and IHC are far and away the most popular, with Holsman third. That is of course partially because they are the ones which have more cars surviving. The IHC is the one toured the most often, and therefore generally the most desired and valuable. There are of course a few rare ones like Duryea that have a special historic connection that may be worth more. I see Sears and Holsman cars selling for between about twenty thousand and thirty thousand usually, in fairly nice condition. I would expect that a Duer would be worth slightly less (not a lot less). That is of course just my opinion based upon observation of watching these for several years.

 

Good luck with yours, whatever you do decide to do with it. I do hope it gets a good home for many years to come.

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4 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

In the early car crowd, there is a very devoted sub-group that loves their one and two cylinder pre'16s. There are several good size tours every year (for the past few decades) that are well attended.

 

I hope to be one of them to tour when I can get my 1,000+ piece three dimensional puzzle put together.  I keep telling my wife that it is a 1908 Buick and she just says OK and smiles.

 

The reason I bought it is because I have friends that own pre '10 cars had have gone with them on tours.  Fun group.

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21 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Probably the best way to make certain that the car is neglected is to donate it to a museum.

 

Very much agreed!

Local museums, particularly, will almost certainly have the car

sit for years upon years, maybe decades, without being driven

and with absolutely no mechanical attention.  They may have all sorts

of displays, ranging from cannon balls to vintage clothing, and they

certainly don't bring trained antique-car mechanics around

annually to work on the cars!  They might not even keep it polished.

 

Since Duer cars were made in Chicago, without a historic connection

to your own area, you might find that the museum quietly sells it

after a few years to fund its other needs.

 

But the good news is that there are old-car enthusiasts today who are

devoted to the earliest antique cars.  Comedian Jay Leno is far from a

catch-all for every nice antique car that comes on that market, and

you wouldn't get a windfall even if he was, but plenty of other hobbyists

should take good care of your car.

Edited by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)
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Yes, museums reserve the right to sell anything in their collection, which usually includes anything which is donated to them. So many folks who think they are donating their car to a wonderful home, where it will be well cared for and cherished on display for decades in front of thousands of people are sadly mistaken. Their car may sit in a back barn somewhere for a while, and then be sold for cash. Many donors would have  retained the car and sold it themselves, had they only known. 

 

When I was a kid in the 60's and 70's, a gentleman in our club had a boat-tailed Duesenberg. He lived in a nearby town, and was friends with my parents. When he grew very old, I recall hearing adults say that this gentleman had no heirs. They all wondered what would become of his fabulous car. He ended up donating it to a museum. Some time later, that museum reportedly sold a car just like his at auction. Rumors flew around our chapter, with some saying his car had been sold, while others said a similar car in lesser condition had been culled out to make room for our member's car. I don't know, but I remember wondering how our old friend would have reacted, if he had been alive to know about it. 

 

I'm sure a few cars are lucky enough to be well-loved, well cared-for, and prominently displayed in museums. But the odds are not good enough for me to ever consider donating a car of mine. 

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Most cars, especially those that are difficult to sell, are donated to museums for the tax benefits. As an example, a few years ago we had a customer donate a car to the AACA Library, knowing full well it would likely be sold, as it was. The owner was able to list the appraised value of the car as a charitable donation on his taxes and the library benefited from the sale of the vehicle. What is the difference if a car owner sells his car outright or donates it to a museum that sells it, usually after 2 years? In both cases the car gets back into circulation. In the later instance the museum or other charity benefits and the owner is not saddled with selling a car which, as we all know, can be a time consuming chore. Often the appraised value is more than what the car would actually sell for.  Depending on your tax bracket donating can make good sense.

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9 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Often the appraised value is more than what the car would actually sell for.  Depending on your tax bracket donating can make good sense.

 

I remember reading that the Internal Revenue Service,

several years ago, issued new rules to counter inflated appraisals.

I believe that, now, the deduction is limited to the dollar amount

of what a charity sells the car for--not for an appraisal, which could

be dishonest.  More than that, I'll leave to the accountants---

Edited by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)
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I'm neither an accountant nor a tax (or any other kind of) attorney, but here's my understanding.  If you donate during your lifetime to a 501(c)(3), YOU are responsible for getting the appraisal and if the 501(c)(3) sells it **within three years** you have to amend your return for the donation year to change the value of the donation up or down to the 501(c)(3) proceeds.  Of course, they have to tell you..  There is sometimes an unspoken agreement that the 501(c)(3) will sit on the item just over the 3-year threshold, but they will never agree in writing to do so.

 

In estates, collectible items including cars are "bumped up" to current value, just like real estate, but an appraisal **as of the date of death** is required if you want to beat Capital Gains tax.  In Calif, selling a car acquired cheaply and owned for decades will be subject to 20% Federal long-term Capital Gains and 9.3% Cap Gain tax.  Of course, you can write off the deductible expenses of the years relating to the maintenance and improvement of this "asset."

 

And if a car is jointly owned with one's wife as marital property, in a community-property state like Calif., when either spouse passes, the car is bumped up to full value as of the date of death.  But be sure to get an appraisal **as of the date of death** even if the actual work of the appraisal is done much later.

 

None of the above should be construed as legal or tax advice; discuss with your professionals. 

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The HCCA has  a High Wheel Motor Buggy Register.  The contact person is Brady Mann, three oh nine 692-7240 or bradymann "at" du-mont "dot" com.  There is also a register for Sears highwheelers and one for Schachts, many of which were highwheelers.  Contact me if you want more information.  While highwheelers are rarely toured in the U.S., there is an active highwheeler gang in Australia, and those guys DO tour.

 

If you donate the car to a museum, all you get is the taxes you'd have paid if you hadn't made the donation.  If you sell the car, you get the whole purchase price.  Example:  Suppose you and a museum (and, if you're audited, the IRS) agree that your car is worth $25,000, and your marginal tax bracket is 30%.  If you give the museum the car, you can claim a deduction of $25,000 and save $7,500 in taxes (30% of $25,000) and the car will gather dust.  If you sell the car outright at the bargain price of $15,000 to someone who wants to drive it, you'll get $15,000 and the car will be used and loved.  Your choice.

 

Gil Fitzhugh the Elder

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On 8/17/2017 at 7:23 PM, trimacar said:

Big bone of contention and discussion, but discussing how the power top switch works on a 1992 Whatsit Gogomobile is not my idea of an antique car forum.

 

The Gogomobiles I remember were from the late '50's. By the time 1992 came around I think GM had rebadged them for the American market but I can't remember which one, probably some variation of Opel or Vauxhall.

 

1992 is 25 years old, look for one at Hershey. Also, the prewar cars appear to have stabilized, but postwar cars are definitely increasing annually.

Bernie

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Sorta. Gogomobiles were small "popcorn-poppers" and some could even exceed 50 mph. Built in south Germany by GLAS which was absorbed by BMW. Don't think GM ever marketed a 2-stroke (but am sure someone here knows).

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"GM would press hay and horse manure into bumpers if they thought it would sell."  Oh, wait! Now that I think of it. They'd get a green point for being biodegradable.

 

That quote is from automotive history. It was stated by an outspoken Dutch GM dealer at a corporate presentation on the new 1959 cars. The dealer stood up and voiced that opinion right after the speaker stated GM cars were built with the finest material available. (Stolen from Henry.)

 

My source was Phil Lanzatella, owner of Philanz Oldsmobile, Rochester, New York. They were sitting next to each other.

 

I guess by 1969 Sloan's relation building with the dealer network was beginning to wane.

 

Ta Da, that's antique car stuff.

 

Phil told me that story in 2005. When he finished he smiled and asked me if I had seen the bumpers on the new cars.

Bernie

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One of Billy Durant's early acquisitions for GM was the Elmore, a 2-stroke car.  Oldsmobile briefly built a 2-stroke, but that was before GM gobbled it up.

 

Gil Fitzhugh the Elder

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I was using the term Gogomobile generically, and not specifically calling out the brand, which technically was a "Goggomobile"....I should have used a different term....the point being that discussing computer codes on an "antique car" forum either amuses or aggravates me, depending on my mood at the time...

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Ok, I think we all knew you didn't REALLY mean Goggomobil. I did anyway. But who can resist an opportunity to talk about Goggomobils? The Australians even got a convertible version. Just look at this thing. It's even cuter than a Crosley Hotshot.

 

Goggo-Dart-33.jpg

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That looks narrow enough to cut up for a Bonneville LSR project, what was the total production run? Bob

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Man, you're right, it just doesn't get any cuter than that on four wheels!  Funny how in that picture there's no way to gauge size, that could be a picture of a toy or a huge car, or anywhere in between, from the perspective!

 

I just looked at website, 71 inch wheelbase, it's, as they say, a microcar......

Edited by trimacar (see edit history)

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Looks like it flew right off the tracks at the state fair or local amusement park.  I keep looking for the 5th wheel that steers it underneath. 

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On 8/18/2017 at 10:41 AM, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

I remember reading that the Internal Revenue Service,

several years ago, issued new rules to counter inflated appraisals.

I believe that, now, the deduction is limited to the dollar amount

of what a charity sells the car for--not for an appraisal, which could

be dishonest.  More than that, I'll leave to the accountants---

That's if the vehicle is sold before the 2 or 3 year waiting period. After that it does not apply if the appraisal is within reason.

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