Questions about an old car

[Guest Duer]

Forgive my ignorance but i figured this was the best place to ask.

Last year my grandfather passed away and left me one of his cars. Its a 1907 duer highwheel. As far as we know its one of 3 in the world and i believe its the only one that still runs. Nobody in my family can take car of a car liked that and i don't want it to sit in storage until it gets ruined. The car is so in excellent condition and i would like it to stay that way. So my question is where should i sale it and how do i determine its worth. Any help would be great. This is the actual car and how it still looks. 

[ragtop4two]

A quick google search will show this exact picture so I'm sure this post is fake in a poor attempt to scam someone here.

[R Walling]

 

Duer, Please show us a different picture of the car, or is your camera broken?

[John_S_in_Penna]

The Horseless Carriage Club of America is dedicated

to cars built before 1916.  They have an excellent magazine

with for-sale ads;  and their internet site is also an excellent

place to sell such cars, where a car will get good exposure to

followers of those earliest autos.  (See www.hcca.org.)

 

There were so many small manufacturers of automobiles 

in the early 1900's that a Duer's rarity will not add appreciably

(or at all) to its value.  But such a car is interesting, and if

fairly priced, should attract someone.

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

And Mr. Duer, you can show your legitimacy if you wish by

(1)  posting some more pictures--current ones--even if they are in a garage;

and (2)  indicating your grandfather's name and club affiliations, so that they

can be verified.  There's no harm in doing that.  Assuming you're legitimate,

we wish you the best.

 

Where is the car located?

[MCHinson]

Duer,

 

Welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum. As you can already tell, a new member using an easy to obtain online photo of a rare car that he or she owns raises people's concerns. Please tell us more about the car and where you are located so we can either determine if some folks fears are justified or not. As soon as we get past that point, I am sure someone here can help you better.

 

[Guest Duer]

The car is in Birmingham,Al. It currently sits in my grandmother's garage. My Grandfather was Edward Todd and we was a member of one of the antique car associations years back but not sure which one. The photo i downloaded off the internet is the actual car but i will have to drive down from Nashville to take one in the garage. Im not attempting to sale it in here,  im just trying to gather information in where to sale and how to determine its worth. 

[mike6024]

THIS NOVEMBER-DECEMBER ANTIQUE 
AUTOMOBILE MAGAZINE VOL.35 NO#6 HAS 
MANY GOOD STORIES, ANTIQUE CAR AUCTION, 
THE PAN: PRAISEWORTHY PRODUCT OF A 
MUCH-MALIGNED COMPANY, CENTRAL DIVISION 
NATIONAL SPRING MEET; DEARBORN MICHIGAN 
JULY 14-18 1971, THE DUQUESNE "A 
SUPERLATIVE CAR", THE HISTORY OF 
DARRACQ AND REGINALD A.S. PHILLIPS: THE 
UNCOMMERCIAL COACHBUILDER. THE INSIDE 
FRONT COVER HAS A BLACK AND WHITE 
PHOTO OF AN EARLY OVERTON TRUCK, THE 
INSIDE BACK COVER HAS A BLACK AND WHITE 
PHOTO OF AN EARLY RAMBLER AND THE 
OUTSIDE BACK COVER HAS A COLOR PHOTO 
OF A 1907 DUER OWNED BY: EDWARD C. TODD 
OF BIRMINGHAM AL.

 

 

Todd was well-known in the antique car community, traveling around the country with his 1907 Duer. He enjoyed participating in the opening of interstates and led the prerace of antique cars at Talledega 500. 

Edited August 17, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

Talking to the owner of an International high-wheeler 

at the Hershey show a few years ago, I learned that

those Internationals sell in the range of $35,000 for a 

nice one in proper running condition.  I don't have enough 

experience to say whether a Duer would bring more, 

though if it is not currently in reliable running condition,

that would subtract rather significantly from its value.

 

You're right that antique cars must be properly maintained

and driven.  If you inherit a grandparent's silver vase or

old wooden trunk, you can enjoy it indefinitely and tuck it

away for decades.  Not so with a car, which is machinery.

 

Mr. Duer, never try to judge a car's value by ASKING prices.

Sometimes they are only 10% or 20% above a true value;

but in more recent years, asking prices are sometimes DOUBLE

a car's true worth, to the point of being irrelevant.  That's especially

true of antique-car dealers, but sometimes occurs among

regular sellers too.

Edited August 17, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Guest Duer]

Id like to thank everyone for their input. I will reach out to the Horseless Carriage Association and get there input. I may wind up donating it to a museum in the Birmingham area if they will agree to keep my grandfathers name on a plaque with it. Since it was his pride and joy for many years i think it would be a great way to honor him. I just want the car to stay in great condition and not be destroyed from sitting in storage. Once again thank you for the help. 

[JV Puleo]

Probably the best way to make certain that the car is neglected is to donate it to a museum. Most museum cars are a flashy (but not very good) paint job on a non-running car that will require a great deal of work. Many museums have a policy of NEVER running cars but treating them as static displays. When you consider that the current trend in American museums is to hire "museum professionals", usually with no specific knowledge of the museum's collection, this isn't surprising. The car would be far better cared for in the possession of a collector who is prepared to expend some of his disposable income to acquire it. You might  sell it for less than it's perceived market value if you like the buyer, It's really up to you but a museum is nearly always a poor choice.

 

Search this forum for threads that mention "museum restoration" if you don't believe me.

[keiser31]

Jay Leno would LOVE that vehicle. Contact him. He will not let it just sit.

[cahartley]

I think contacting Leno is a great idea!

Even if he's not interested his curator/mechanic might give you some good info.

 

He/they can be contacted from the facebook page >>> https://www.facebook.com/jaylenosgarage/ or his site >>> https://www.lenosgarage.com/pages/contact-us

Edited August 17, 2017 by cahartley (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

At least no one will ever hot rod it.

[JFranklin]

This museum runs all their vehicles and takes pride in that fact.

 

http://www.waaamuseum.org

[Restorer32]

There is a high wheeler event (basically a low speed race) every year at the AACA meet in Hershey, PA.  I'll bet your grandfather and his Duer participated in this event years ago. A great way to honor your grandfather would be to donate it to the AACA Library and Research Center. If you did so we would happily volunteer the services of our restoration shop (PennDutchREstoration.com) to get it running and see that it participated in the high wheeler event.

[MCHinson]

4 hours ago, Duer said:

The car is in Birmingham,Al. It currently sits in my grandmother's garage. My Grandfather was Edward Todd and we was a member of one of the antique car associations years back but not sure which one. The photo i downloaded off the internet is the actual car but i will have to drive down from Nashville to take one in the garage. Im not attempting to sale it in here,  im just trying to gather information in where to sale and how to determine its worth. 

 

Thanks for the reply. In case anyone still has any doubt, I can confirm that Duer's IP address is consistent with where he says he is, so I am convinced. 

 

Duer,

 

I would suggest that you contact AACA Headquarters. If the car was featured in Antique Automobile Magazine, that would make it fairly clear that your grandfather was a member of AACA. AACA should have some records of the car available.  I would also suggest that Restorer32's suggestion of donating it to AACA Library and Research Center would be an excellent choice if you decide to donate it to a non-profit where it would be cherished and taken care of in an appropriate manner, to honor your grandfather.

[JV Puleo]

I think it might be worthwhile to point out to Mr. Duer that you are NOT talking about the "AACA Museum." This is a case where a non-specialist might be very confused. And, my remarks regarding museums do not apply to the AACA Library & Research Center.

Edited August 18, 2017 by JV Puleo
typo (see edit history)

[Guest Duer]

I do remember seeing the AACA sticker on the Bradley GT that i bought from him. Ill defiantly look i to their research library.  Thanks for the help

Edited August 17, 2017 by Duer (see edit history)

[mike6024]

The photo at the very top of this thread is the same one that is on the back of the magazine, Antique Automobile, 1971, VOL.35 NO 6, in case anyone has it.

[Guest Duer]

3 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

The photo at the very top of this thread is the same one that is on the back of the magazine, Antique Automobile, 1971, VOL.35 NO 6, in case anyone has it.

Im sure the magazine is in some of my grandfathers stuff. He kept a complete record of the car from the day he found it all through the restoration.  He even has photos of it with Johnny Cash and Missy from HeeHaw. 

[MCHinson]

Duer,

 

For contacting the club you will find their contact information here: http://www.aaca.org/About-AACA/contact-us.html

 

For more information on the Library and Research Center (which is part of the club) check out this link: http://www.aacalibrary.org/

[Terry Bond]

I agree that contacting AACA headquarters to discuss would be a good idea and give you some options to consider perhaps.  There may even be some history on the car if it has received AACA awards previously.   Advertising it for sale via AACA or even HCCA would be the best opportunities for an outright sale as that's where you'll most easily find the high wheeler enthusiasts.   Although my knowledge is limited, I believe most museums may not able to work with conditional arrangements.  Be cautious and realize once you do donate it to a museum you have no further control over it and  may never see it again. Just make sure you have full knowledge of all the factors involved before you make any decisions.   There is a small but thriving group of lovers of these early high wheel vehicles, even though they are not so usable as driving type vehicles.  It's great to see them when they are shown.  Would indeed be great to see some updates photos and hopefully it's held up well over the years.  Neat looking car.  Don't know how many remain.

Terry

[1937hd45]

Nice car, I hope the HCCA people can be of help to you, bit to old for current AACA types. Bob

[trimacar]

1 hour ago, 1937hd45 said:

Nice car, I hope the HCCA people can be of help to you, bit to old for current AACA types. Bob

What?  That's a strange comment, there are numerous AACA  "types" on this forum who not only own, or have owned, high wheelers, and we still like them.  I owned a beautiful Sears Autobuggy for years.  This is a fascinating car, rare, although rare doesn't translate  to big bucks.  Depending on current condition, I think this car is in the $18k to 25k range.  Giving it to AACA Library, NOT museum, is a wonderful idea., and you could "write it off", whatever that means!

 

Now, if your comment concerns the AACA forum and questions about computer codes and electronics, I agree, the forum is drifting away from true antique cars and lots of comments about power accessories and computer systems.  Big bone of contention and discussion, but discussing how the power top switch works on a 1992 Whatsit Gogomobile is not my idea of an antique car forum.

[mike6024]

 

Here's a picture of another 1907 Duer taken from another AACA thread here, under pre-WWII Photos. It was probably taken in 1914 in Chicago but vehicle is 1907.

 

Just copied it here because I came across it and it's a nice photo, and the same make.

 

 

[1937hd45]

2 hours ago, trimacar said:

 

 

Now, if your comment concerns the AACA forum and questions about computer codes and electronics, I agree, the forum is drifting away from true antique cars and lots of comments about power accessories and computer systems.  Big bone of contention and discussion, but discussing how the power top switch works on a 1992 Whatsit Gogomobile is not my idea of an antique car forum.

 

 

That and scrapping all gas powered cars and forcing me to plug in an electric rubbed me the wrong way. But I'll be long dead before that deal hits. Bob

[MCHinson]

49 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

 

 

That and scrapping all gas powered cars and forcing me to plug in an electric rubbed me the wrong way. But I'll be long dead before that deal hits. Bob

 

I am confused by your anti-AACA comments. AACA maintains the forum for discussion of all antique cars. Yes, there are some hobbyists who like newer cars but there are also plenty of folks interested in the oldest anqique cars in AACA and on the AACA forum as well.  While there are lots of clubs that specialize in certain different aspects of the hobby, AACA is truly a "big tent" organization that is accepting of all antique automobiles.

[C Carl]

I am very impressed with the ability of AACA to survive and thrive. The late Nickle Era cars I have loved for 70 years were just 20 year old undesirable used cars back then. It is a brilliant move to classify 25 year old used cars as "antique". It brings a fresh stock of cars and owners into contact with the much older machinery. Love happens ! And hey ! my '93 Cadillac 60 Special will make the cut next year ! YaHOOO !!!   - Carl

[wayne sheldon]

I don't have it in front of me, nor do I have a good index. However, the "Antique Automobile" had a really nice high wheel issue back in the '60s as I recall. I treasure my copy. 

 

Okay, i couldn't just let it go, I went and found my copy. March 1963, V 27, No 2.

A lot of good background on high wheelers in general

 

In the early car crowd, there is a very devoted sub-group that loves their one and two cylinder pre'16s. There are several good size tours every year (for the past few decades) that are well attended. High wheel cars are not the most desirable, but do participate in good numbers (sometimes). There was an effort a couple years ago to form a high wheel club, but I guess it failed. At least the web site has been basically dead for nearly four years now. Of the many (about fifty if I recall correctly) ((I was off a bit, that issue lists 77 manufactures!)) different manufacturers of high wheel cars, the Sears and IHC are far and away the most popular, with Holsman third. That is of course partially because they are the ones which have more cars surviving. The IHC is the one toured the most often, and therefore generally the most desired and valuable. There are of course a few rare ones like Duryea that have a special historic connection that may be worth more. I see Sears and Holsman cars selling for between about twenty thousand and thirty thousand usually, in fairly nice condition. I would expect that a Duer would be worth slightly less (not a lot less). That is of course just my opinion based upon observation of watching these for several years.

 

Good luck with yours, whatever you do decide to do with it. I do hope it gets a good home for many years to come.

[Larry Schramm]

4 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

In the early car crowd, there is a very devoted sub-group that loves their one and two cylinder pre'16s. There are several good size tours every year (for the past few decades) that are well attended.

 

I hope to be one of them to tour when I can get my 1,000+ piece three dimensional puzzle put together.  I keep telling my wife that it is a 1908 Buick and she just says OK and smiles.

 

The reason I bought it is because I have friends that own pre '10 cars had have gone with them on tours.  Fun group.

[John_S_in_Penna]

21 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Probably the best way to make certain that the car is neglected is to donate it to a museum.

 

Very much agreed!

Local museums, particularly, will almost certainly have the car

sit for years upon years, maybe decades, without being driven

and with absolutely no mechanical attention.  They may have all sorts

of displays, ranging from cannon balls to vintage clothing, and they

certainly don't bring trained antique-car mechanics around

annually to work on the cars!  They might not even keep it polished.

 

Since Duer cars were made in Chicago, without a historic connection

to your own area, you might find that the museum quietly sells it

after a few years to fund its other needs.

 

But the good news is that there are old-car enthusiasts today who are

devoted to the earliest antique cars.  Comedian Jay Leno is far from a

catch-all for every nice antique car that comes on that market, and

you wouldn't get a windfall even if he was, but plenty of other hobbyists

should take good care of your car.

Edited August 18, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[lump]

Yes, museums reserve the right to sell anything in their collection, which usually includes anything which is donated to them. So many folks who think they are donating their car to a wonderful home, where it will be well cared for and cherished on display for decades in front of thousands of people are sadly mistaken. Their car may sit in a back barn somewhere for a while, and then be sold for cash. Many donors would have  retained the car and sold it themselves, had they only known. 

 

When I was a kid in the 60's and 70's, a gentleman in our club had a boat-tailed Duesenberg. He lived in a nearby town, and was friends with my parents. When he grew very old, I recall hearing adults say that this gentleman had no heirs. They all wondered what would become of his fabulous car. He ended up donating it to a museum. Some time later, that museum reportedly sold a car just like his at auction. Rumors flew around our chapter, with some saying his car had been sold, while others said a similar car in lesser condition had been culled out to make room for our member's car. I don't know, but I remember wondering how our old friend would have reacted, if he had been alive to know about it. 

 

I'm sure a few cars are lucky enough to be well-loved, well cared-for, and prominently displayed in museums. But the odds are not good enough for me to ever consider donating a car of mine. 

[Restorer32]

Most cars, especially those that are difficult to sell, are donated to museums for the tax benefits. As an example, a few years ago we had a customer donate a car to the AACA Library, knowing full well it would likely be sold, as it was. The owner was able to list the appraised value of the car as a charitable donation on his taxes and the library benefited from the sale of the vehicle. What is the difference if a car owner sells his car outright or donates it to a museum that sells it, usually after 2 years? In both cases the car gets back into circulation. In the later instance the museum or other charity benefits and the owner is not saddled with selling a car which, as we all know, can be a time consuming chore. Often the appraised value is more than what the car would actually sell for.  Depending on your tax bracket donating can make good sense.

[John_S_in_Penna]

9 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Often the appraised value is more than what the car would actually sell for.  Depending on your tax bracket donating can make good sense.

 

I remember reading that the Internal Revenue Service,

several years ago, issued new rules to counter inflated appraisals.

I believe that, now, the deduction is limited to the dollar amount

of what a charity sells the car for--not for an appraisal, which could

be dishonest.  More than that, I'll leave to the accountants---

Edited August 18, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Grimy]

I'm neither an accountant nor a tax (or any other kind of) attorney, but here's my understanding.  If you donate during your lifetime to a 501(c)(3), YOU are responsible for getting the appraisal and if the 501(c)(3) sells it **within three years** you have to amend your return for the donation year to change the value of the donation up or down to the 501(c)(3) proceeds.  Of course, they have to tell you..  There is sometimes an unspoken agreement that the 501(c)(3) will sit on the item just over the 3-year threshold, but they will never agree in writing to do so.

 

In estates, collectible items including cars are "bumped up" to current value, just like real estate, but an appraisal **as of the date of death** is required if you want to beat Capital Gains tax.  In Calif, selling a car acquired cheaply and owned for decades will be subject to 20% Federal long-term Capital Gains and 9.3% Cap Gain tax.  Of course, you can write off the deductible expenses of the years relating to the maintenance and improvement of this "asset."

 

And if a car is jointly owned with one's wife as marital property, in a community-property state like Calif., when either spouse passes, the car is bumped up to full value as of the date of death.  But be sure to get an appraisal **as of the date of death** even if the actual work of the appraisal is done much later.

 

None of the above should be construed as legal or tax advice; discuss with your professionals. 

[oldcarfudd]

The HCCA has  a High Wheel Motor Buggy Register.  The contact person is Brady Mann, three oh nine 692-7240 or bradymann "at" du-mont "dot" com.  There is also a register for Sears highwheelers and one for Schachts, many of which were highwheelers.  Contact me if you want more information.  While highwheelers are rarely toured in the U.S., there is an active highwheeler gang in Australia, and those guys DO tour.

 

If you donate the car to a museum, all you get is the taxes you'd have paid if you hadn't made the donation.  If you sell the car, you get the whole purchase price.  Example:  Suppose you and a museum (and, if you're audited, the IRS) agree that your car is worth $25,000, and your marginal tax bracket is 30%.  If you give the museum the car, you can claim a deduction of $25,000 and save $7,500 in taxes (30% of $25,000) and the car will gather dust.  If you sell the car outright at the bargain price of $15,000 to someone who wants to drive it, you'll get $15,000 and the car will be used and loved.  Your choice.

 

Gil Fitzhugh the Elder

[mike6024]

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=MnTPHt_y9qIC&pg=RA8-PA124&lpg=RA8-PA124&dq=High+Wheel+Motor+Buggy+Duer&source=bl&ots=ROjIDWZG5O&sig=CKMzrMrsp7DzfjP-EZcwejzcy5c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZiq726-HVAhUMS2MKHe10C3wQ6AEIeTAM#v=onepage&q=High Wheel Motor Buggy Duer&f=false

Edited August 18, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

On 8/17/2017 at 7:23 PM, trimacar said:

Big bone of contention and discussion, but discussing how the power top switch works on a 1992 Whatsit Gogomobile is not my idea of an antique car forum.

 

The Gogomobiles I remember were from the late '50's. By the time 1992 came around I think GM had rebadged them for the American market but I can't remember which one, probably some variation of Opel or Vauxhall.

 

1992 is 25 years old, look for one at Hershey. Also, the prewar cars appear to have stabilized, but postwar cars are definitely increasing annually.

Bernie

[padgett]

Sorta. Gogomobiles were small "popcorn-poppers" and some could even exceed 50 mph. Built in south Germany by GLAS which was absorbed by BMW. Don't think GM ever marketed a 2-stroke (but am sure someone here knows).