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1925 Standard Saga Continues


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As I have mentioned to some of my other Buick Buddies, after the oil leak started this episode of the Standard saga, the Master also has now developed some issue in the lower front crankcase area. I have not had the inclination (guts) to investigate further. I need to attend to "Beulah" first. Buick Buddies (both Dave) dropped by this past week. First, "Dave's 40 Buick" and his Mrs. on Sunday stopped to pick up an Atwater Kent radio I found for him. I showed him what we had done with the cars so far. Also we drove to dinner in my 1937 that now is also going to the possible disabled list. On the return trip from the Buick Nationals the engine developed a dead miss somewhere in Ohio. When we got to my daughters near Indiana Pa. I was able to troubleshoot. I found that # 8 plug electrode was hammered shut. Something broke loose and was shooting around that cylinder. DSCF6208.thumb.JPG.3100ab6a2670fa076ba9bbdc1b6f1200.JPG

I changed oil before heading home as the dilution had added almost an extra quart in the pan. Total mileage round trip was 1,915 miles. On the final pulls over Sidling Hill and Tuscarora Mountains on route 30 I had some severe vapor lock. The manifold gaskets also gave up.

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Prior to the trip when doing my tune up all the cylinders were all over 85 lbs. to 90lbs. compression. Now that # 8 cylinder is down to 60 lbs. The plug I replaced it with is still ok after an additional 150 miles drive home but of course is now showing oil coating. I did not need another of my cars down. But as Larry Schramm told me... drive it, break it, repair it, repeat.

 Dave_B drove his 1928-25 up from Maryland on Friday to have me install a small part I adapted for his car. He was there to offer support and sympathy.

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Thanks Dave. I needed it.

 

 

Edited by dibarlaw
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Mark:

I will check with a scope/camera to verify. The fellow (another Larry) who is going to do the head on the Standard recommended that check be done in case a hole was burned into the pistons edge.

 In the mean time I have to start sourcing items for the Standard engine rebuild. He has not had time to look over the head yet. No word is back yet from the shop in NY. about the rest of the engine. Since I am having all the Babbitt work and new pistons etc. Larry recommended new valve springs. I know several of us 1925 Standard owners are having this type of work done. Are there any suppliers other than "BOB'S" for springs and guides to try? Oil pump gears are on my list. I lapped the bottom plate on my pump and the engine was running at around 25 lbs. pressure. I know the Master engine will need new gears and such also as it only ran at around 12 lbs.

 The hole is getting deeper and darker......

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Larry

If you have access to a Bridgeport the attached info should be all you need to rebuild your 25 Master pump with modern gears. Let me know if you have any questions. Someone on this forum may know if your 25 STD uses the same oil pump as the Master.... I did this to my 25 Master pump a few years ago and worked out great,just make sure your pressure relief works as it should. I run 0/20 synthetic in mine and has 25 PSI at hot idle with spark retarded. Engine was rebabbited rods and mains.

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Larry

I got my springs , guides and valves from Egge. After I did, I was talking to one of the club guys who was working on a 29 Cadillac.who advises me that he sourced his new valves from the Cat service facility who had a scrap bin full of old valves .

Seems the stem diameter for Cat diesel engines is the same .375". With a longer stem and larger head ,what isn't a usable valve for Cat is still usable for our old cars. All you have to do is shorten the stem , cut a new keeper groove and make the head a lot smaller.

That was the theory anyway.

It helped that another club member's son worked at Cat so access to the scrap bin was easy.

They are stainless and hard so the lathe work isn't easy but your talents should come in handy.

Brad

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I had stainless Ford diesel valves from the recycling bin turned into new valves for my Buick model 31.  Had the correct slots cut into them for the keepers, the machinist kept breaking cutters and not happy with the slots but they show and I wanted them. Cut the old valve guides flush with the valve cages and bored them out for modern valve guides to match the new valves.   Been working for the past 5 years.  Gary

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  • 2 weeks later...

Received the valve springs from EGGE. Master parts book has the same part # for both Standard and Master. The Master has an inner spring also. I bought them to have for the Master when the time comes. I gave my local guy the springs yesterday so hopefully he will get started on the head. No word from Cazinovia yet.

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Larry,   

     Are you going with oversized pistons?  Do they have to be special made?  Are you going to offset the wrist pin or leave it in the center of the piston?   I have not had the cylinders checked yet, but I suspect needing to go 1 size over.  Thank you  Hugh

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16 hours ago, ROD W said:

Larry,   Does EGGE have both the inner and outer springs.  What is the price.   I will have to get their  catalog.

Rod:

 Outer spring was $15.94. Inner was $9.20 each.  Total was $279 with the federal express at $22.99!

Funny that in 1931 the Master parts book quotes prices at, outer at 15 cents and inners at 10 cents each. I could see the rate of inflation at least 10 times more but not 100 times. Valves listed at $1.25 each for the Standard. I believe EGGE is asking $22.00 each for them.

And those prices are what was charged the customer. So profit was made all down the line. Even if only a penny at a time. But in 1931 15 cents was the cost of lunch.

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9 hours ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Larry,   

     Are you going with oversized pistons?  Do they have to be special made?  Are you going to offset the wrist pin or leave it in the center of the piston?   I have not had the cylinders checked yet, but I suspect needing to go 1 size over.  Thank you  Hugh

Hugh:

 I would say yes to all your questions. I did mention that the pistons had an offset pin bore. They were doing the sourcing for aluminum pistons.  Patrick Reeve said his first impression is that they will go .020 oversize on my engine. The largest wear spot near the top of one cylinder was 3.012.

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On 29/08/2017 at 12:30 AM, Hubert_25-25 said:

Ron,  My motor is out too.  There may be 3 of us overhauling 1925 Standard motors soon.  My machinist is not available until October so I am waiting on him.

 

Larry, I think what Ron is getting at, he is wondering if Joan has time on her calendar to pull his motor.    

 

Hugh

Make it 4. 

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Leif :

My concern will be the offset pin bore. In the Buick Bugle Tips and Techniques book from old Bugle articles there was an article about "1925 Standard Piston Swap" by Frank Burgoyne from Maryland. I met him at a BOOM Buick meet back in 1988 or 89. At that time he was showing his 1911 Buick. My 1925 was over 20 years in the future. As his article starts he indicates that the 25 engine was going to be too costly to rebuild and then goes into a replacement 1926 engine (3 1/8" Bore) that he installs instead. Then he says that he finds Jeep Pistons that he orders from Montgomery Ward or Sears. (remember when you could order auto /truck parts from them?) So the article has nothing to do with a 1925 engine (3" bore) to piston swap after all.

The 1925-25 that he restored, from what I understand, was donated to a local Maryland Museum.

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Larry

 

The offset piston pin bore has come up before on the AACA forums. I'm not sure if I've talked to you about it before . I've posted in the past to try and  find out definitive answers as to

1) why Buick and others did it in the first place.

2) if is was such a  good idea, why did they stop and

3) all things being equal what difference would it make if one eliminated the offset. ( I'm thinking the only variables that could really start making a difference are pin bore vertical location in piston, connecting rod journal to wrist pin developed length and crankshaft centreline to cylinder bore centreline)

I've never really been given  a satisfactory answer to any of those questions.

When I had Ross make new pistons, they gave me the option of doing them either way without any cost difference. Their opinion was that it really wouldn't make a difference and I went with zero offset. Unfortunately,  given how slow my project is going, I am of no use as a guinea pig for anyone currently doing a rebuild!

 

If I'm reading your comment correctly, the 1926 was a different engine and easier to rebuild, Not sure if that was due to the external accessory configuration or internal parts availability.  Not sure what the internal differences were besides the 1/8" increase in the bore.. The '26 engine I have sitting in the shop looks pretty much identical except for the reconfiguration of the starter /generator /waterpump on the right and revised carb /heat /manifold piping on the left. 26 accessories are a much more familiar 'modern' configuration in all respects.

Anyone know if 1926 had the offset pistons ( i could find out but it is a lot of work!) or have any answers to 1,2 or 3?

 

Brad

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Brad, 

   I have been looking into the offset myself.  As far as I can tell, it seems the only benefit is minimizing piston slap noise.  One reason I can tell for not using the offset is that people don't always pay attention to top or back or front.  Case in point, 5 of the pistons and connecting rods installed in my car faced correctly with the arrow on the connecting rod cap to the rear, and one faced to the front.  Wrist pins are supposed to all be offset to the camshaft, so I did get 5 out of the 6 correct.  Not sure if this made more slapping noise being reversed as I have never heard the engine run.  Case in point 2, I had one roller lifter installed where the installer did not put the tabs around the aligning stud.  Now I have a camshaft that needs 1 cam profile welded up, besides just grinding. And I have a cam follower to replace.  

People with 1926 Standards have the 3 1/8 bore, so they can use the Jeep Pistons (I think).  Those would have no offset.  

I talked to a machinist today and he said Chevy did not adopt offset pin bores until the 80's.  Not sure if this practice continues today.  

I still have to decide myself at some time which way I will go, but no real wrong answer as far as I can tell.

I do think it is not something to loose sleep over.   

Hugh

 

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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Hugh

 

I think you are correct on the piston slap issue,  that was more of a cast iron piston problem and I expect that will not be as big an issue with the aluminum pistons.

I was originally going to comment that  the rods , and crank would all be the same  ( same stroke for 25, 26 and 27)  but thought I'd fact check before you caught me out!

Sure enough, the master parts book shows 1925 all by itself on those two items.  Could be small differences, such as the crank which for '26 went to a roller pilot bearing  instead of the plain bushing for 1925 or perhaps even eliminating the 'arrow" on the connecting rod.

 

You know there was a camshaft attached to the timing gear if you need it! I don't think it needs anything besides a regrind. Could send it via Delta Camshaft who already have the profile in stock . I got their name from the 27 Buick Yahoo group and they seemed to do a nice job on mine.

 

Brad

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Not to hijack Larry's thread but since Larry , Hugh and Ron are all in the middle of rebuilding their engines faster than I ever will, I thought I'd post what I got from Ross Pistons.

Can't really provide an endorsement as I have no idea how they will work but I was pleased with what they provided. The order was from 8 ( yes , 8) years ago so I'm not sure if anything has changed.

They supply rings and wrist pins so when you are considering cost, you should factor that in. I went oversize to avoid sleeving costs but after boring over size , the shop did say that theere was some discolouration of the cylinder walls that might just be casting issue or might be some corrosion issues. Worst case is I will have to resleeve if things don't work out.

Lots of details in the instructions , they provide a spec sheet so you can reorder if something bad happens . Their instructions are somewhat amusing as they include details for nitrous and blown engines.

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I basically trusted Ross to provide what they thought was best given that piston technology has changed pretty dramatically in 90 years. They will make them anyway you want. So aside from the weight difference, which is pretty astounding, here is what else changed.

Ring thickness:  rings are a custom job from Total Seal.  The old compression rings were .125" the new ones are about half that. Interestingly, the oil rings are actually thicker on the new pistons. Good instructions with the rings with specific instructions on setting end gap. Apparently , you are supposed to use a specific ring file for this job. Anyone know what that looks like?

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Wrist pins were supplied. Interestingly , the pins run right in the aluminum pistons. The old pistons were bushed . I can't quite get my head around that but Ross said not to to worry. So far wear hasn't been a problem!!

Only minor complaint is that they did not mill the clamp bolt groove. The pins are tough and the retired machinist complained. In case you are wondering, the ID is tapered to be thicker in the middle. I sort of freaked out when I first saw the outer wall thickness and the groove I had to cut but I think they will be okay.

The other tricky bit is the lack of a slot to rotate the wrist pin and line up the clamp bolt. I foresee some bad words when doing that .

Appearances are deceiving, the new piston is, in fact, 0.040" over.

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.

Lastly, skirt length. Ross whacked about 1/2" off of that. Can't say what that will mean. Increased piston slap noise? I know the aluminum pistons in the Model T are way quieter than stock. I went with their advice just in case I ever add the nitrous and the blower!

 

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If you want any more info, let me know.

Brad

Edited by bradsan (see edit history)
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Tinindian

I was thinking along the lines of what you were suggesting until read their somewhat stern warning about a special file.

I should know better than not to Google before I speak just kinda figured it would be more obscure that 632,000 results! Looks like the primary purpose of the special tool was to provide a 'table ' to keep the ends of the rings perpendicular to the tangent of the curve , if that even makes sense.

 

Brad

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I think that was the main reason but if your file is clamped in a vise and the ring is slid along the top of the vise the ends should be square.  I watched a few mechanics in GM dealerships do it this way.  Even saw machine shops just use a file and a vise.  Personally I never saw one of these tools in use.

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Lots of surprises regarding the oil delivery in my engine.  I disassembled the oil pump today.  One of the last engine parts to look at.  I think the oil pump drive pin is good for about 3 more turns.  There were no shims in one set of main bearings, and no shims at all in any of the connecting rod bearings.  Then to boost oil pressure because they ran out of bearing shims to remove, you will notice there was a lock washer added under the oil pump relief valve spring.

 

I did look up the specs on the oil pump spring.  At rest, it is 1 5/16" long.  Spec is 2 1/8" at rest and compress to 1 5/8 under a 10 oz load.  Anyone know a good supplier of oil pump springs?

Hugh

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Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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I am thinking of drilling two 3/16 holes in the top of this oil drive part so that oil can drip thru to lubricate the pin and shaft.  Otherwise it works kind of like an umbrella and the area never gets any lubrication.    Hugh

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7 hours ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

I am thinking of drilling two 3/16 holes in the top of this oil drive part so that oil can drip thru to lubricate the pin and shaft.  Otherwise it works kind of like an umbrella and the area never gets any lubrication.    Hugh

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That pin was in there for so many years and so many miles, and never actually failed. 

 

That area is rich in oil mist and the ends of the pin surely receive some of that.  Is the new pin ever going to get to the wear point of the old one? 

 

I would just install a new pin and move on, re-engineering not required. 

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Don,  

     You are right.  Given the amount of sludge in the oil pan this engine has been starved for oil for some time.  The cylinder walls and bearing surfaces are actually quite good somehow.  Modern oils will make a world of difference.   Another example of neglect is the blockage on the oil pick up screen.   Notice how only a minimal amount of the flowable oil was getting thru certain parts of the screen.  The mystery of non detergent oil.  Hugh

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The wrist pin bolts on my car are only held with a lock washer.  Larry mentioned that he has known someone where one of these came loose.  I would like to wire mine.  I have ordered 6.  I also plan to get 6 grade 8 lock washers to replace the existing lock washers as one I have is already missing a piece.

 
AN5H-12A  5/16-24 x 0.813 Grip Airframe Bolt, 1.34 UHL, Drilled Head  $0.79 
 
 
Hugh
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2 hours ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

The wrist pin bolts on my car are only held with a lock washer.  Larry mentioned that he has known someone where one of these came loose.  I would like to wire mine.  I have ordered 6.  I also plan to get 6 grade 8 lock washers to replace the existing lock washers as one I have is already missing a piece.

 
AN5H-12A  5/16-24 x 0.813 Grip Airframe Bolt, 1.34 UHL, Drilled Head  $0.79 
 
 
Hugh
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Hugh,  where are you going to wire them to? 

 

I just checked my pictures of my engine lower end and the main bearing caps have nuts with cotter pins,  the rod caps have cotter pins,  and the oil line basses have lock wire from one screw to another.  So the parts that are lock wired aren't part of the rotating mass. 

 

Just curious... 

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Hugh

 

Split lock washers are an interesting subject. Lots of information out there on their use.The science appears to run contrary to our faith based application.

The literature out there all comes to the conclusion that they do nothing to prevent loosening. Once the bolt is tightened, and the washer flattened you are simply relying on the friction on the bolt threads to prevent loosening.

Here's one of the many links:

http://hillcountryengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Split-Lockwashers-Separating-Myth-from-Truth.pdf

That said, I still look at them and reinstall them with the thought that they will prevent loosening .Just can't shake it!

 

On a related note, When I removed the clamp bolt, some of the bolts were damaged by the wrist pin groove being out of alignment . ( my bad, probably should have stopped when the bolt removal got tough and re centered the wrist pin.

In doing so, I damaged some of the threads. No problem I figured, I'll just chase them with a appropriate die . I know there are restoring taps and dies but I've never had a problem with using regular dies for this...until now. There is something about those bolts that just do not lend themselves to this kind of operation. Its not like I'm simply cutting too much metal, its more like everything is binding during the operation. Afterwards, the threads don't look so much recut as squished around.

I'm wondering if there was either a special steel for those bolts or a different thread depth. The diameter and pitch  appear to be standard 5/16" NF.

I'm thinking of using Grade 8 bolt,  , lockwasher and high temp Loctite if I ever get it back toigether

 

Brad

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Your original bolts may be equal to todays Grade 2 bolts. My 29 has many original bolts. They are very soft compared to todays Grade 8. If switching to Gr 8 hardware I would do a trial assembly carefully bringing torque up to recommended specs for that particular grade fastener. My concern is that the threads in the rod may not be capable of holding the torque required for proper bolt stretch. If a bolt isn't torqued or stretched correctly at assembly there is a risk or it backing out or failing from fatigue. If all rod threads hold I would definitely use genuine locktite on the threads and discontinue use of the original lock washers. Also watch for threads bottoming in the thread bore.

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Going back to the offset piston pin for a minute. I did a search "why offset wrist pins" and it appears there are two reasons. One was to reduce piston slap by introducing lateral forces pushing the piston against the cylinder wall. The other was to change the angle of the connecting rod to the crank at TDC.

At the end of the article In the comments section there was this:

 

One guy said "it is like when peddling your bike and you stand up off the seat and move your center of gravity forward so you body mass is ahead of the crank spindle when you push down. It's probably not that simple but that's the general idea."

 

And another "The benefits/drawbacks of using pin offset usually makes for a lively topic of discussion among armchair engineers.  The reality is that it probably does not make a whole lot of difference unless the offset is huge.
The typical offset is usually around 1mm to 2mm.  That amount of offset can reduce the noise from piston slap, but it won't really affect combustion efficiency much.  The piston motion around TDC becomes asymmetric, with a lower initial velocity after TDC and a higher velocity just ahead of TDC.  It just becomes a trade-off."

 

And here are piston dimensions for standard engines 25 through 28 according to my Spring 1931 Chilton Automotive Multi-Guide

               Bore    Piston Height     Compression Height

1925       3"               3 13/16"                2 1/4"

1926       3 1/8"        3 13/16"                2 1/4"

27&28     3 1/8"        3 49/64"               2 3/16"

Willys      3 1/8"                                      2.167" 

 

Dave

 

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