dibarlaw

1925 Standard Saga Continues

Recommended Posts

 I finally got around to adding the missing wire cover on my 25-25. I copied the one on my 1925-45 as it is the same part # and it fit perfectly. I seems that each time I do something to complete the car or to improve her appearance there is a price to pay .DSCF6227.thumb.JPG.626bd9d459010ac941175e3d8e795b05.JPG

This was the first start up since the first of July. When I ran it for about 15 minutes. Prior to that was when we fought to get her to our car show on the 1st of June. When we finally got her back in the garage from our aborted trip I shut her off, shut off the fuel and walked away in disgust. Several days later one of the fellows with the plumbing business that stores their trucks in the same building called to say coolant was running out of the car. So I went over and tightened up the packing nut on the water pump shaft and cleaned up the mess. I put in fresh coolant on July 1st and started up and ran for 15 minutes and all seemed well.

 Yesterday I opened the hood, turned on the fuel and checked the water pump shaft. All seemed nice and clean. Puled out the choke .. she started instantly. Revved up a little and as she settled down, closed the choke and all is running smooth. I pulled her out of the building. I adjusted the low speed screw and proceeded the 3 blocks to my home garage. Still not running right... I will adjust again when I get her home. As I pull in front of my garage smoke is rolling out of the hood and things are not sounding happy. Oil running down onto the exhaust pipe. When I lift the hood there is a line of oil flowing out from the back of the block down both sides of the engine. Shut down the engine to investigate. Total running time about 15 minutes. It looked like the oil line going into the block had split or the solder joint had failed and or the gasket. I took the next 1/2 hour to remove the floor boards to get at the oil line fitting from the Y pipe from the crankcase to the back of the block that feeds the upper section of the rocker shaft.DSCF6228.thumb.JPG.88547ac319a33a10da6f4b518424ceb8.JPG     

 I have to remove the oil line to the gage to get to the 1/2" fitting. The bolts holding the brass fitting seemed tight when I removed them. The gasket looked like it had been removed and re-used several times. I have never had this off. Then I cleaned the pipe/fitting assembly and did indeed find that the solder joint had failed.

 Before disassembly I used a small prick punch to mark the tube and fitting for alignment. I cleaned the parts with acetone, flattened the face of the fitting as it was dished a good bit, reamed out the solder from the fitting, re-soldered. I made some new gaskets as the original copper/asbestos one was shot.

DSCF6229.thumb.JPG.f2e7b7b0c5bafe0ba917e617a90ebeaf.JPG          DSCF6230.thumb.JPG.54b48a43444909129534794fa366230c.JPG

 Today I will put things back together and hope for the best. I hope that I did not loose the rocker shaft bearings!  As I have said before this car has fought me at every turn. Stay tuned.

Edited by dibarlaw
spelling (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With only 15 minutes of running time without oil, your rockers should still be OK. 

Keep in mind that earlier cars had no pressure lube to the rockers, only manual oiling each day or a felt pad that seeped oil.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Larry, just remember what our friend, Jay, says about these old Buicks.  "It just takes time to get them all sorted out"  You are getting there my friend.  One of these days you will have messed with every part on this car and only then can you say that you have it sorted out properly:unsure:

 

Terry

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 As I was hoping for a quick fix to the oil leak (flow) out of the back of the engine, it did not happen. The repaired fitting is not leaking. The oil is coming from up above the fitting. Next I thought how simple... the valve cover gasket. Not! Apparently the head gasket is leaking at the thru hole for the feed to the rocker shaft. It seems that something may have caused the feed pipe on the top of the head to get pushed up and kinked, causing a restriction. The oil found the path of least resistance thru the gasket.DSCF6231.thumb.JPG.cd4ef393021c9c39ddea9e652c55a3d7.JPG

DSCF6233.thumb.JPG.695c9675d46015aa6d074dd61e02b20b.JPG

DSCF6234.thumb.JPG.89f8cbc484420ed5a737377eabfdcf71.JPG

 I will have to remove the rocker arm assembly to at least repair the fitting. The 2 opposite end head bolts are totally inaccessible unless one has a special wrench to torque them. That engine rebuild seems to be getting closer.

 Back to the drawing board.

 Larry

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Larry,

With all your free time now, you'll have it worked out before you know it. Don't do that engine unless you really have to.

 

My engine rebuild is going typically.

1.Well those cam bearing surfaces look OK, you SHOULD be fine......well since it's apart redo them.

2.There is a tiny crack in the block. It doesn't show up until 70 psi you SHOULD be ok..........well it's a bare block now let's get it stitch welded then I know it's good.

3. You need OS pistons (can't find them anywhere). They'll have to be made.

and on and on and on.

I love my hobby, my bank account does not.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chuck:

 Thanks for your words of encouragement. I need them. I had originally hoped to get a bit more use from this car before diving this deep. Since we bought it in 2012 it has all been more fits than starts. I still wanted to get the car running a bit better and then sell it to put my efforts into the Master project. I would rather have put any rebuild money into the Master.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Larry,

    You mentioned the head gasket was the culprit, but it looks like someone made the short oil pipe that goes to the rockers.  Here is a photo of mine and it looks to be a little shorter and less home made.  Maybe since it was not a gusher, you could check the oil level, clean the spot and start the car briefly to verify the leak source.  I may have a spare one of these tubing connectors , but I will have to check.  Hugh

598477fab67d0_2017-04-1518_29_01.thumb.jpg.da66035c1dc9e475a34faf9636ed485d.jpg

 

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, dibarlaw said:

I still wanted to get the car running a bit better and then sell it to put my efforts into the Master project. I would rather have put any rebuild money into the Master.

 

Given that you intend to sell this car, sell it now, as it sits.  It's a given that we never get our financial investments back in these cars.  As such, throwing more money at it just makes a deeper hole.  And if there is no payback for that (e.g being able to enjoy the car), what's the point?

 

Example: Suppose you invest $1000 and 100 hours to fix some of the niggling problems.  And for that, you get another $1000 at resale.  Is that a sensible expenditure of your time and money?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Larry,

  So this oil leak created  2 problems.  A blown head gasket and you need a good replacement piece of tubing.  My motor is all apart, and I hope to begin going to the machine shop Oct 1.  I have lots of things to fix on mine as well.    Hugh 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Larry 

I agree with Kongaman,  there would,t  be any advantage in rebuilding the motor on the standard if your  planning on selling it.  But surely,  after all the work you have put into that car,  there could not be too much more that needs doing.

Edited by ROD W (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, ROD W said:

Larry 

I agree with Kongaman,  there would,t  be any advantage in rebuilding the motor on the standard if your  planning on selling it.  But surely,  after all the work you have put into that car,  there could not be too much more that needs doing.

 

I also agree, because you might end up selling the car to a hot rodder who wants a crate engine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would proceed with caution on rebuilding a early Buick engine. If the engine is runnable , run it. The cost to correctly rebuild one of these could easily hit $10000. You may be forced to reuse questionable parts or have custom parts made. These Buicks certainly aren't a Ford or Chevy at rebuild time. One thing for sure  is that they don't need as much care as the throwaways do. The Buick is the equivalent to a truck or industrial engine. One observation is that until you redo everything that the previous owners before you messed with , you will have surprises.  I hate going behind people that do sloppy work.

Edited by raydurr (see edit history)
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

raydurr, I think that you are being way too pessimistic about the cost.  This engine really isn't that much different from a Babbit-bearing Chevrolet in-line six rebuilding wise.  You have a crankcase, block, and a head - same as in a more modern engine.

Bore it out, new pistons and rings, rebuild the head, turn the crank, and pour the new bearings and set it back together (a person would do the same things on a Chevrolet six) and drive on.  Whether Larry keeps the car or sells it, he would at least know what he has then.  A fresh total rebuild is not a bad thing come sell time.  Just my three cents worth here.  And you are certainly right on about someone cobbling things up just enough to make it work.

 

Terry Wiegand

Out Doo Dah Way

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks all for your input. Terry and I have discussed at length and I have also shared on the forum all the work I have done to get around the "Cobble Jobs" done by the previous owner. Our other project the 1925 Master has been our go to fun car as of late since it had run so much stronger and reliably. That is up until this morning. 1/2 mile into our 1 mile drive to church the car started to die and finally quit when I tried to restart nasty sounds were coming from the crankcase. I think it may have thrown a rod.

No Buick Bliss today.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Terry what I had in mind is the total cost to get the engine in like new condition. Do a cost comparison on more obscure parts of a Buick. Just say the engine has a rollerized cam shaft with bad followers and a cam that needs reconditioning it will be super expensive to go back with new parts. Then you have the clutch with multiple frictions. After being hot several times the pressure plate should have the springs checked or replaced.  The cost to completely recondition , not patch, is rather expensive and time consuming. Timing gear is not cheap for what you get. Oil pump gears and labor associated with making it like new is pretty steep. The gears may not be completely worn out but if you are already spending several thousand dollars I would. On the Buick ,the pistons will probably be a modern aluminum which should require the engine to be balanced. This is more $$$. Proper cylinder head reconditioning is a must. Buick vales, guides and springs aren't cheap. The gasket set for the engine is pretty steep. Lets surface the manifolds and cylinder head. Are the rockers in need of service or replacement? Is the crank, block , rods and other hard to locate parts reusable?  Then last but not least, basic machine shop labor . I wouldn't let just anyone do my babbit work.  You might could rebuild for $2000-3000 if really lucky but I would consider it a patch and not a real rebuild. Just the cost to recondition the carburetor, fuel pump, distributor , water pump and radiator is expensive. Would you overlook these things at rebuild time? I wouldn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Larry

I rebuilt my 25 Master engine/clutch/transmission 2 years ago. New Babbitted rods and mains, sleeved bores to standard with aluminum pistons, reground crank and camshaft, complete rotating group balanced, new tappet rollers, reconditioned head, rebuilt oil pump with new modern gears, cam gear, and more...

  

I have a couple of these engines for spare parts if you need something let me know.

 

Jim Bourque

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very sorry to read of your misfortune yesterday , Larry. Too bad we can't just put 'em to bed and feed 'em chicken soup ! You have my sympathy , brother.   - Carl 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Carl:

 

 My wife Joan makes wonderful chicken soup. It always helps me....

I have been busy. I replaced the rocker arm inlet elbow with the one from the spare master head. I had to file a hex back on to the chewed fitting. That end now fits a 9mm wrench instead of the 3/8". It still takes some finessing to get all to line up. So again, if you try to remove the fitting you must be removing the entire rocker shaft assembly at the same time. Loosening the end that goes into the head. There is a screw that holds the outlet to the shaft at the front and the tube simply pulls out of the head.

 Once I had this fitted I removed the assembly as I thought that I would check torque. To see if that would help stop the oil flow. I used the spec for 7/16" bolt of around 60 Ft. Lbs. The torque wrench pointer did not start to feel resistance and move until around 35 lbs. For my 1937 it is 65-70 lbs. You can also only torque all the head bolts with the rocker shaft off. You can not get to the inside bolts otherwise. I re-torqued and put all back together and hoped for the best. Started and ran for about 5 minutes and all seemed well. Once things got hot the oil was still flowing....from the rear of the head gasket.

 So after supper and the engine cooled down I began to remove things to get the head removed.

When removing the push rods from the side galley there were no broken springs on the roller lifters. The roller had no perceptible play on the pin. So I pulled one of the lifters out to look at the cam. That one looked rough.

So The Saga Continues.....

Larry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From memory,  as it was more than 30 years since rebuilding my 25 standard engine.   That rocker oil pipe ( the one going through the head )  is flared at the bottom.  When the head is torqued down,  this creates the seal.   If that top hex nut is turned,   it either breaks the copper/brass tube  or the flare at the bottom.  As your tube has been pushed up it means that seal has been broken.   Unfortunately  the only way to resolve the problem is to remove the head which you are in the process of doing.   Don,t we just love working on these old cars.

Edited by ROD W (see edit history)
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This weeks activity. I finally got the head to break free. It had a composition gasket. The photo shows where the leak was coming from.DSCF6283.thumb.JPG.f5b1c91827e4956ede5c4f83e61ca20e.JPGDSCF6277.thumb.JPG.9af0fa51f41b3a1a60c66e3820078cfa.JPGDSCF6280.thumb.JPG.669c04e0b82f7e0074569cb86ce68c49.JPGDSCF6275.thumb.JPG.4b44ed2fb69a1a429a8486f685a4f211.JPGDSCF6282.thumb.JPG.766198b9947b54b820923ff0ef2a9a5d.JPG

 I took it to my local friend with an engine shop. He did a quick check of the combustion chambers with the valves at rest. Total vacuum drawn was 17.5 in. Consistent on all chambers. The gage goes up to 20 in. The chambers has some soft carbon (always runs rich anyway). He will do a regular valve job and clean the head.

 Yesterday I cleaned the tops of the pistons and block combustion chamber of carbon. Not any hard stuff very easy to remove.

I "miked" the bores at about an inch below the ring ridge. The largest was +.012 over size. (3" bore.) Most .001 to .002 out of round when measuring at 90 degrees. The bottom of the cylinder bores ran a taper to about +.007 to + .0055.  No nasty  scores were noticed.

 

 

 

 

Edited by dibarlaw
Added content (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 My Beulah is not going anywhere soon.

I have been trying to systematically remove as much as possible on the engine to make it more manageable. The water pump was removed just as the shop manual outlined. It helps if the unit was kept clean and had been in use. Yesterday with my son's help we removed the S/G very easy, but awkward. We tapped apart the leaky exhaust pipe from the muffler. It will need replaced with as the pipe was a welded up fabrication and the muffler was an oval shaped, mangled, make do unit. (another cobble job) I should have gotten this apart before trying to remove the splash shield. The shield even with the exhaust pipe filler plate removed is tough to remove without bending and distorting it. I guess that is why I never installed my new one. (The S/G side splash pan was missing and I secured a set on Ebay and had them powder coated.) I will clean this up and send along if someone is in need as I have the powder coated one.  I will disconnect the engine at the clutch to flywheel and make a support for the transmission across the frame. If they are going to balance the crank as a unit then the flywheel should be left on. I will also make a wooden cradle to transport the engine to the shop. I will have to rent an engine crane. I am attempting to remove the steering box since that needs new seals anyway. 3 Buicks and 3 leaking steering boxes! Anyone have suggestions or experience with these? Then the engine with the rear flywheel housing should be less of a problem in removal.

 

 Larry

DSCF6284.thumb.JPG.119f4dad54e6b4edebd0537277d26cc4.JPG

DSCF6286.thumb.JPG.8329633ed7a7cb997a811d26f1af84ff.JPG

DSCF6285.thumb.JPG.6e4bf9fd5d41e22d1fb70cd0a7cbad22.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"3 Buicks and 3 leaking steering boxes! Anyone have suggestions or experience with these?"

 

I use Corn Head Grease from John Deere in my steering boxes.  No leaks, and it becomes gear oil under pressure.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...