American Rolls Royce (Ghost, PI & PII)

[JV Puleo]

It reminds me of the Type 48 Locomobile I saw advertised once...painted white with pink fenders. G od only knows what the interior looked like. My late employer, Ted Leonard of Gatsby PI notoriety, had similar taste. I liked Ted and he was a loyal friend but, ultimately, I couldn't work for him. He ruined a PI Avon with white paint, beige fenders, white walls, vacuum plated wheels and gold plush upholstery... another of our friends called it "bordello yellow."

[prewarnut]

If I can ask you guys, what are the symptoms or problems which develop with the P1 head failure (I'm not sure I've seen it fully discussed here). I see mention the Salamanca had it replaced and it is frequently mentioned as a 20K part - if available, not to mention the tear down, etc. I know it is an oxidative issue with the coolant and aluminum. What I'm wondering is, is it a slow process like a coolant leak or something catastrophic like a crack or rod through the block type of scenario? (e.g. can one drive as-is for a few years?)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, prewarnut said:

If I can ask you guys, what are the symptoms or problems which develop with the P1 head failure (I'm not sure I've seen it fully discussed here). I see mention the Salamanca had it replaced and it is frequently mentioned as a 20K part - if available, not to mention the tear down, etc. I know it is an oxidative issue with the coolant and aluminum. What I'm wondering is, is it a slow process like a coolant leak or something catastrophic like a crack or rod through the block type of scenario? (e.g. can one drive as-is for a few years?)

 

Keith, Joe or Ed needs to say something intelligent here.   What I know is that prior to the new aluminum heads,  say 40-50 years ago, the earlier pre 1929 PI with the steel heads were highly sought after.   The reproduction heads leveled the playing field and the fact that you could actually get a new head for the later cars bumped them up the pecking order.

 

Having had at least one car with a combination of steel and aluminum I can tell you that frequent changes of the Anti-freeze is a smart idea.

[edinmass]

Funny how being raised in Springfield with lots of RR cars around, and having hung around with Ed Lake and knew Frank Cook and Jefferson that I never actually have seen a cracked head on the bench. I use to see Lake pick up the raw castings at the foundry for Cook. He said two out of three new head castings were not useable at the time......I think they got better as time went on. Obviously the cracked heads were not repairable.......and many sedans were parted out to keep the open cars running. In the 70’s it was common to see the sedan bodies outside the shops headed for the scrap yard after they were stripped of just about everything. The chassis were numerous into the late 90’s when all of a sudden they were getting bought up and sent across the pond for projects. Since Rolls Royce cars are very seldom worn out, parts chassis just take up room for things you will never need. Just about every part on a Rolls is made to be serviced if there is a problem with it........which was rare. I think the heads are still in production in Ohio if I am not mistaken. It’s funny how so many owners are too cheap th fix the car when they need a new head. At 25k for a head..........that’s such a TINY part of the cost of restoration on a Springfield car you wouldn’t even notice it on the bill.

 

How expensive it it to do a Pebble restoration on a PI or PII? At lunch one day Bill Gates said to Jeff Bezos wish I could afford to restore my Rolls.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

It's only the aluminum heads on the later PI's (29-31)* that are a potential problem and it should be said that most of these cars are running with an original head. The aluminum alloy they were cast from has not aged well and does not react well with some anti-freeze solutions. That said, I've only seen one damaged head - mine - and I think that was repairable (It wasn't cracked...it had a hole in the water jacket). It's more a question of "you don't know"... I'd steer clear of an aluminum head PI because the only ones I could afford would be in rough shape and there is no way I could afford to have the work done. The cost of a new head would be a killer...That said, I don't think there are - or ever were - dozens of headless cars around, nor have I ever seen one being offered really cheap.

 

I saw Frank Cook's first prototype head running on his Newmarket. The early ones had overheating problems and, as Ed has said, the castings often had flaws that couldn't be seen until they were machined. The cost had to reflect the fact that a lot of machining time was wasted. I think, at the time, Frank hypothesized that the original head had been centrifugally cast. If I had to guess, I'd estimate that 2/3 or more of the cost today is the machining time. They are too big to be done on a Bridgeport and all short run precision work like this is expensive. I don't remember Franks' price but I think it was around $10,000 in the early 70s which suggests that, in real money terms, they are less expensive today.

 

*I don't know if the problems continue on with the PII - I've only ever worked on 2 of them and never liked them much. To me, they are too late to be very interesting. Neither of the cars I worked on had head problems.

[edinmass]

About ten years ago, a guy called me about a RR PI to ask me the value of the car. I responded that it was twenty percent of the asking price. Before I could opine, he told me I was crazy and hung up the phone. Years later I saw him at a meet, and I asked him if I was correct. He said yes.......I replaced the head and block, and now it’s fine. I asked him if he learned anything........and he said yes..........and he explained he rather not learn that lesson again. 

[JV Puleo]

I bought a stripped PI chassis - the crankcase, lower end, transmission and running gear were all there but the head, blocks, hubs and wheels were gone - at Bills Auto Parts in Valley Falls, RI. I think the firewall was gone too because I didn't have the chassis number. Price...$300. If I had it today, I'd probably give it to Terry Harper for his big Wisconsin engine but even putting wheels on it would be a challenge. The problem is, as Ed points out, the asking prices are usually at least double - or even four times what they are realistically worth even from my perspective, which is not that of someone that expects to make money on it and doesn't want the attendant headaches of a concours-quality restoration.

[alsancle]

14 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

I bought a stripped PI chassis - the crankcase, lower end, transmission and running gear were all there but the head, blocks, hubs and wheels were gone - at Bills Auto Parts in Valley Falls, RI. I think the firewall was gone too because I didn't have the chassis number. Price...$300. If I had it today, I'd probably give it to Terry Harper for his big Wisconsin engine but even putting wheels on it would be a challenge. The problem is, as Ed points out, the asking prices are usually at least double - or even four times what they are realistically worth even from my perspective, which is not that of someone that expects to make money on it and doesn't want the attendant headaches of a concours-quality restoration.

I think I remember that car!  Was it still there around 74 do you think? There were at least 3 Reo Royales in the back.

[JV Puleo]

Probably... if you went out the side door into the yard it was on the right, fairly close to the front gate (which was always locked unless they were taking something out). Over my years of going there I became fairly friendly with Bill and had the run of the place, including the inside storage building. $300 was his standard price for any complete wreck in the yard. I paid the same for a 1919 Buick tourer (really a chassis...we left the sheet metal behind).

[Keith Ward]

I haven’t any experience of the PI head but have repaired a couple of P2s mainly because the head for my car was frost damaged but otherwise very good condition so I repaired it to keep the numbers matching, a new one over here in 2016 was about £12k with tax which isn’t that bad really. 
 

i have a spare that I bought of the son of a deceased enthusiast near Abingdon on the Thames. A very wealthy family who had owned a couple of P2 from new. He was clearing his dad’s garage and had 2 heads for sale, one was original but with a corrosion leak in one of the stud tubes (which I bought) the other was an early after market replacement which interestingly he told me his father had bought to replace the leaking one (that I had just bought) but the new one over heated every 20 miles and on inspection, all the casting walls had been beefed up to the point where the hot aluminium to coolant ratio was completely wrong so there wasn’t enough coolant capacity to keep all that extra metal cool resulting in constant over heating hotspots and head distortion. In the end he replaced it with a newer original RR head and all the problems went away. 
 

I always use Fernox Alphi II central heating system antifreeze and inhibitor at 40% concentration, it seems to keep everything in remarkably fine condition internally but it does tend to try to escape via the tiniest route so everything needs to be kept as tight as possible. 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Keith Ward
Spelling (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I always ponder this profound question when working on any P1,PII, or PIII.............

 

 

Who was crazier, the guy who wrote the check when it was new, or the idiot trying to fix it 90 years later. After much discussion and debate..........we determined it was us. 
 

 

How do you fix a pre war Rolls? Easy..........

 

Budget five times the time you think it will take.......

Budget ten times the money you think it will take.....

 

And on the really big jobs or total restorations...........figure you will want to jump off the roof of a very tall building several times a month.

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Keith Ward]

Alternatively, get the skills to do the work yourself or get a portfolio of skilled craftsmen who do similar quality work on machinery of a similar nature to help instead of paying the RR mafia to charge 5 times what they would charge for the same job on any other make of car. But its true to say; it's never going to be "Cheap" and you'd have to be crackers to take one on.

 

It depends what you want from the car, a beautiful car that you can rally, tour and enjoy with your family, experiencing something from Les Temps Perdu, or chasing rosettes at Pebble Beach.

 

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it, compared to a modern Audi or BMW (amongst others modern machines) the Phantom II is just a posh tractor, there's no mystery or majesty, they are just like any other very high quality, but basic and under stressed machine.

 

Get some oil under your finger nails 🙂 you won't regret it.

[prewarnut]

Well my wife thinks I'm crackers at times.....Other than the usual appropriate inspection of a P1 by someone who knows them would using a heat gun to register temperatures around the head/block tell one anything useful?

[edinmass]

Keith......a posh tractor made me smile. As someone who has showed cars on both sides of the pond, I think it’s fair to say our European brothers who collect and rally cars have somewhat different ideas and values when it comes to repair and restoration. Yes......a Rolls is just a bunch of nuts and bolts..........but it’s a very difficult pile of nuts and bolts. Just getting hardware correct on a PI or PII is a challenge that 98 percent of the people in the hobby can’t even comprehend. Things like hand stoning the timing gears to get them to mesh perfect and run silent are beyond most people’s comprehension. Rebuilding a clutch or steering box on a PI is ten to twenty times more difficult than say a Packard, Auburn, Buick, or almost any other American car. I enjoy PI’s because they are so mechanical.........and servicing a good and correct PI is easy.....but time consuming. Trying to restore one that’s been abused, left out in the open to rust, or had a tractor mechanic doing everything with vice grips because they don’t have correct tools are the things nightmares are made of. Unmolested cars are a rarity today. And a Rolls that has been messed with is very, very difficult to deal with in a proper fashion. I’m aware you do most of your own work, and from the photos I have seen and what others have told me you are very talented. My best guess is you come from an aircraft maintenance background or some type of mechanical engineering background. While at the Windsor Castle show a few years ago, I was fortunate to interact with a bunch of your fellow countryman on a rally through the Cottswalds and while all of their machines ran well and were trouble free.......most of their cosmetic standards are different from what we regularly see over here. Yes, of course the big trophy  monger collectors had stuff on par with what we regularly see at Pebble, but the “average restoration” for many people are an appearance of a well kept used car vs the shiny show car so common over here. As disclosure I have 100 point cars, and very very long in the tooth original 100 year old cars. I find them all interesting and they each serve a purpose. I particularly like cars that are mechanically perfect but cosmetically shabby.........I love driving past a very expensive trailer queen broken down on the side of the road.........who’s owner is wondering why he spent seven figures on his car, when my rolling junkyard goes flying past without issue. Looking forward to seeing you car finished. Best, Ed.

 

PS- As far as the Rolls Royce mafia doing service work on your car......the local Rolls dealer here is 375.00 per hour US. And alignment check on the Bentley GT last month was 600.00 and that was with no adjustments. Such is the way of modern luxury cars.
 

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[trimacar]

3 minutes ago, edinmass said:

a Rolls is just a bunch of nuts and bolts..........but it’s a very difficult pile of nuts and bolts.

I had the pleasure of working on a late 1920s Rolls.  I'm a mechanical engineer by education and profession, so while I might not be the best mechanic around, I do comprehend mechanical assemblies.

 

The Rolls astounded me, and I found myself trying to get into the mind of the British engineers who came up with some of the bits and pieces.

 

Something as simple as a mechanical brake equalizer, American engineers did it with simple steel pieces to balance the pull on each side, the English engineer built a miniature differential with 40 or 50 parts, complete with gears and "axles".  Where American engineers would use 8 or 10 large bolts to mount engine flange to transmission flange, the English "sewed" the two pieces together, with 40 or 50 (one quits counting on a Rolls) smaller bolts darn near overlapping each other.

 

No question fine cars, but over engineered beyond comprehension.  The man hours to build such cars must have been astounding.

 

As to restoring, I watched a very talented man work for two weeks to restore a Rolls carburetor, making sure everything was perfect, and complete with the cosmetics (which of course took a huge amount of time, polishing and buffing).  As Ed mentions, I honestly think a Duesenberg would be easier to restore than certain Rolls Royce automobiles.

[Keith Ward]

I had a nice long grovelling response to my previous post apologising if I offended anybody and giving reasons as to why I posted it however, proving that I am happier with a spanner than I am with the written word, I stupidly deleted it.

 

If I really wanted to cause offence I would write about my thoughts on whitewalls on a pre-war Rolls Royce. 

 

Anyway the jist of it was that I don’t want to put anybody off having a go and trying to restore a car rather than it being broken up for spares (although if one is, I’d be interested in the two front shocks). I also worry that if we as a community promote the notion that they are too complex or expensive to enjoy it would be counter productive because I think, like the Concourse de Elegance, this will make our cars unattractive and irrelevant to the next generation. 
 

Sorry again guys sometimes its a lot harder to make my myself understood on a post like this than it is to repair a P2 cylinder head.

 

K

Edited July 26, 2021 by Keith Ward
Grammar (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Keith,

 

You are not going to offend any of the guys I see posting on this thread.    For the most part,  Ed scared off the sensitive guys a long time ago.

[Keith Ward]

Phew, thanks AL and Ed, if this had been a well known UK RR forum there would have been floods of tears by now. 

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, Keith Ward said:

I had a nice long grovelling response to my previous post apologising if I offended anybody and giving reasons as to why I posted it however, proving that I am happier with a spanner than I am with the written word, I stupidly deleted it.

 

If I really wanted to cause offence I would write about my thoughts on whitewalls on a pre-war Rolls Royce. 

 

Anyway the jist of it was that I don’t want to put anybody off having a go and trying to restore a car rather than it being broken up for spares (although if one is, I’d be interested in the two front shocks). I also worry that if we as a community promote the notion that they are too complex or expensive to enjoy it would be counter productive because I think, like the Concourse de Elegance, this will make our cars unattractive and irrelevant to the next generation. 
 

Sorry again guys sometimes its a lot harder to make my myself understood on a post like this than it is to repair a P2 cylinder head.

 

K

 

 

Too many cry babies on the internet today.......to hell with all WOKE people. I live in the real world. Live and let live. Don't complain, never explain. 

[John_Mereness]

On 7/25/2021 at 9:03 AM, JV Puleo said:

It's only the aluminum heads on the later PI's (29-31)* that are a potential problem

Nope, the cast iron heads on occasion fail too - just not as many issues.  

The aluminum ones are not as much cracking as they are porosity and just material eroding away. 

I wish when I was a kid I took pictures of the doorsteps to relatives barn - they integrated failed heads into their concrete work (always made for an interesting few steps. 

[John_Mereness]

And I am not sure of status of heads these days - Ohio may be an option and I think Fiennes has them back

ordered.  

 

Anyway, I certainly would not let a cylinder head deter me from purchasing - a lot of cars have reproduction heads and time has just lost who installed them and when, it is not a horrid project if needed, the reproduction parts have been always well done, the cars are beautiful performers on the road and require literally zero modifications from original build, and ....

[John_Mereness]

RE:  1932 RR PI - L Series, I would disagree as to a posh tractor too (I assume the tractor part many experience comes from mileage and poor maintenance though)- to be blunt, once we figured out that we were shifting it wrong the car was a dream to shift (it was determined to have a clutch brake and was perhaps a whole different beast than the average RR PI - jury is still out on the topic), a dream to drive via one hand cornering/steering and half turn steering too (no round and round - the car was geared for a half turn to go full right and visa versa), quiet, comfortable, set up for a tall person, and ... - its only faults were way overly complicated British engineering and a huge car on the road that you could not see out anything other than windshield (somewhat).

 

Sidenote:  Very torque-y cars, though sort of topped out pushing over 50mph 

 

Add'l Sideote:  if you want to go out to a Concours event just raise your hand that you would like to attend with your RRPI or RRPII - the answer is usually YES

Edited August 5, 2021 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[Keith Ward]

The Posh Tractor comment comes from the robust unsophisticated simplicity of the mechanics throughout the engine and chassis. Built for reliability and longevity more than anything else which was derived from the chief engineers formative years designing machine tools. But compared to any modern engine the Phantom 2 is a beautifully hand built but primitive machine built to such wide limits any modern car maker would shudder at the thought of. Nobody with the skills should shy away from stripping and overhauling one, there is nothing to be afraid of. (Apart from the electrics of course)

[alsancle]

With Pebble next week we can take some guesses on the RR results.

 

I'm thinking 300-350k on the Derby and 100-150 on the Hibbard and Darrin.

 

The only thing I'm not sure of is the fact that the market is hot and we have seen some stronger than expected results. 

[alsancle]

On the Pebble Beach tour there is one nasty hill and another long one.  I was sitting in the back seat of a Duesenberg in second gear on the long hill.  Positively flying up the hill.  In fact almost overtaking and passing a sputtering Countach.    I looked out the back window and there was a PII AMS series car right on our tail. I was impressed by that.

[alsancle]

Not American RR but I’m posting because it has the tach and whet I think is the exhaust cut out on the floor.

[alsancle]

[alsancle]

[58L-Y8]

15 hours ago, alsancle said:

Not American RR but I’m posting because it has the tach and whet I think is the exhaust cut out on the floor.

From The Rolls-Royce Phantom II Continental by Raymond Gentile, page 222: "127 RY, a Drop-head coupe by Carlton"

[alsancle]

11 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

From The Rolls-Royce Phantom II Continental by Raymond Gentile, page 222: "127 RY, a Drop-head coupe by Carlton"

Steve, it was really nice.  The guy that owns it has a great collection.

[58L-Y8]

AJ: 

It looks quite wonderful and appropriately presented, solid livery with black-walls.   Actually, the convertible victoria design is rather modern compared to the usual Gurney Nutting Sedanca drop-heads with their straight window sill and dramatically recessed top well.  Note how much longer the hood and fender appears without the side-mounts, allows the full sweep of those masses play out to their best.   A close-coupled sport sedan variation would have been a real knockout.

Steve

Edited August 16, 2021 by 58L-Y8 (see edit history)

[brasscarguy2]

Late to chime in here but have some Springfield history of our family. There was a Springfield P-1 chassis for sale in Seattle with a Fisher roadster body. My father wanted the car but with 2 children he thought he needed more room. This lead to a phone call to a name from the past. Sam Adleman in Mt Vernon New York. Sam was a dealer and parts sorce for classic cars and  suggested that my father purchase a car he had for sale. A 1929 P-1 with 23,000 miles. His description was it ran like a swiss watch and had the completion of a school girl. My father asked for photos and Sam's response was it in storage and I have no intention of going near the car until spring. After some long distance negotiations a price was arrived at the sum of $850.00. Sam stated that if the car did not meet our expectations all monies cheerfully refunded.

 

Our family traveled to the east coast and arraigned to meet Sam and pick up the car. As it had been in storage for several years it required some attention. Once that was done we headed west. 

 

Our trip covered 6000 miles and mostly trouble free. We added an electric fuel pump and had the radiator boiled out in Wyoming. We did have some tire issues and being fitted with 19" wheels tires and tubes were a problem.

 

We still have the car in our family and total miles is now 34,000. Our Rolls is S205PR. Supposed to be one of the last 6 cars produced after the bankruptcy. JS Inskip assembled the car from the left overs it and has the streamlined fenders and very late door handles. As it was not sold until 1935 the New York title was issued and car dated as a 1935. When we 1st saw the car we were very surprised to find it was a Sedanca Deville and a St Regis body style. Original paint, and interior a true survivor.

 

brasscarguy

[8E45E]

8 hours ago, brasscarguy2 said:

We still have the car in our family and total miles is now 34,000. Our Rolls is S205PR. Supposed to be one of the last 6 cars produced after the bankruptcy. JS Inskip assembled the car from the left overs it and has the streamlined fenders and very late door handles. As it was not sold until 1935 the New York title was issued and car dated as a 1935. When we 1st saw the car we were very surprised to find it was a Sedanca Deville and a St Regis body style. Original paint, and interior a true survivor.

More than a few of us would like to see some photo of your car.

 

Craig

[DavidAU]

"A close-coupled sport sedan variation would have been a real knockout".

Something like this?  

[8E45E]

Or this.

 

Craig

Edited October 7, 2021 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[brasscarguy2]

I will try to down load of photo here.  If you click on the icon and wait a second you will see S205PR taken last summer on one of the very few days sunny in Seattle!!!!!!

 

brasscarguy

Edited October 7, 2021 by brasscarguy2 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

A AJS series rear end.  Massive.

[JV Puleo]

Those brake drums are nothing to sneer at either!

Note that the PII used a conventional drive shaft. The Ghost and PI used a torque tube.

Edited October 20, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Keith Ward]

Are you selling it Al?

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, Keith Ward said:

Are you selling it Al?

I can try to sneak it out in my backpack for you Keith. I’m at the phantom II society tech seminar. The rear end belongs to a Newport town car.