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American Rolls Royce (Ghost, PI & PII)


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On 2/1/2021 at 10:58 AM, JV Puleo said:

I don't know what you'd have to do to flex the frame of PI...I've had a body-less chassis at one time so I've seen the whole thing exposed and I suspect there are very few trucks as solidly built. That complaint sounds more like improperly lubricated suspension parts which are very easy to have because the Bijur "on shot" system is almost always clogged. I expect 98% of PI's aren't properly lubricated - another reason why I like the Ghost. It's more work but at least it's positive.

Unlike Bijur systems for other manufacturers, the RRPI is more of a 5 to 10 weigh oil thing. 

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On 2/1/2021 at 10:58 AM, JV Puleo said:

I don't know what you'd have to do to flex the frame of PI...I've had a body-less chassis at one time so I've seen the whole thing exposed and I suspect there are very few trucks as solidly built. That complaint sounds more like improperly lubricated suspension parts which are very easy to have because the Bijur "on shot" system is almost always clogged. I expect 98% of PI's aren't properly lubricated - another reason why I like the Ghost. It's more work but at least it's positive.

 

 

You can't flex the frame of a P1...........it's built like a bridge made to carry a Sherman Tank.

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On 2/1/2021 at 9:00 AM, alsancle said:

 

I have limited experience with both,  driving a single LHD PI and a single LHD PII.   I wasn't in love with the 4 speed in the PII but I'm sure after talking to Ed I had the shift points to high which I should have known.

 

Frame flex seems to be a common complaint with the PI,  but I don't now how and when that issue manifests itself.  Perhaps power sliding through a turn?  😄

 

You observation on sorting is true,  how many prewar cars are truly sorted correctly?   This is why I'm nice to Ed since he is a sorting savant.

Friends had an English build 1925 RRPI (17-HC, CT 7770 - Duke of Westminster) - the 4 speed was pretty dreamy. We never drove the car over 50-55 mph, but it got up there without issue 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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There is another thread going on this,  but I'll cross post it here.

 

 

UP FOR SALE FROM A PRIVATE COLLECTOR THIS RARE AND VERY IMPORTANT ROLLS ROYCE , ONE OF ONLY FOUR EVER MADE BY BREWSTER COACH BUILDER ( CALLED THE SPECIAL NEWMARKET PERMANENT SPORT SEDAN ). FOR MORE INFORMATION ,YOU CAN REACH ME AT show contact info
. ONLY SERIOUS BUYERS PLEASE . THANKS

 


Comment by me:   This car was for sale for years by a dealer in England,  although the car was always in the US.

 

It is a 26 Silver Ghost that was rebodied in period by Brewster with a  Special Newmarket body typically found on the PII.    Ed and I were debating the numbers this morning,  and I can't find the list right now but I'm going to say there was single Special Newmarket placed on the Silver Ghost chassis,  this car,   another placed on the Phantom I (car is in Texas)  and then 3 or 4 placed on the Phantom II chassis.

 

This is a GREAT car but I have no idea why the owner marketed it for years on a dealer website in England and then decided to put it on Craig's List.    If we are devaluing the car,  why not just throw it on eBay?


The last Phantom II Newmarket sold for 1.2 million,   I would expect this one to be worth somewhere under 1/2 of the PII.

 

SilverGhostNewmarket-S374-1.jpg

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The Silver Ghost listing in Rolls-Royce in America by John Webb di Campi, Copyright 1975, page 226: 

Chassis Number: S374RL

Body Style: Stratford convertible coupe

Builder & Number: B2839

First Owner: G.L. Waggoner

City: Fort Worth, Texas

Delivery Date: 5/14/27

Second Body & Comments: "Spec 4p conv sdn B7403 (1935); B2839 scrapped; 3rd body: limo."

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1 minute ago, 58L-Y8 said:

The Silver Ghost listing in Rolls-Royce in America by John Webb di Campi, Copyright 1975, page 226: 

Chassis Number: S374RL

Body Style: Stratford convertible coupe

Builder & Number: B2839

First Owner: G.L. Waggoner

City: Fort Worth, Texas

Delivery Date: 5/14/27

Second Body & Comments: "Spec 4p conv sdn B7403 (1935); B2839 scrapped; 3rd body: limo."

 

 

If somebody wants to pay the 85 bucks to the RROC we can get the full accounting of the car.    1935 sounds about right for Brewster to use a leftover PII Special New Market body on an earlier car.

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A.J. 

Interesting enough the body lines and overall design idiom are more consistent with the Henley roadster.   I tend to consider this masterpiece design as a four door Henley sport sedan...but that just my uncultured outlook.  Name it "Special Newmarket" or whatever, its easily Brewster's absolute best overall design.

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 A better advertisement for the car is on prewar.com.   I interpret the sellers comments as thinking this is a 7 figure car. 

 

https://www.prewarcar.com/319894-1926-rolls-royce-silver-ghost-special-newmarket-permanent-sedan

 

UP FOR SALE IS A RARE AND VERY IMPORTANT ROLLS ROYCE SILVER GHOST PERMANENT SEDAN , ONE OF ONLY FIVE BODY EVER MADE BY THE AMERICAN COACH-BUILDER BREWSTER , THEY WHERE MADE ORIGINALLY FOR PHANTOM TWO CHASSIS , THREE OF THOSE BODIES WERE MOUNTED ON P II CHASSIS , ONE WAS MOUNTED ON P I CHASSIS AND LAST ONE WAS MOUNTED ON THIS GHOST LEFT HAND DRIVE CHASSIS BY BREWSTER HIM SELF BY THE REQUEST OF THE FIRST OWNER ( Guy Waggoner) BACK IN 1933 . 

 

When Brewster fitted the body on the Ghost chassis he also added 4 wheel brakes with vacuum booster .  there is an article written about this car in the flying lady magazine  back in April 1954 , will be glade to share it with interested buyer . this Rolls has only 33000 original miles , sat in a museum in Texas for over 50 years , interior and leather roof are in remarkable original condition , doors shuts as solid as it could be . very nice inside interior wood trim , the car was painted and chassis has been gone thru back in 2007 ,  car never been driven for a good number of years , engine turns freely , will require a rolls Royce mechanic to waking her up .

there are many Rolls Royces out there but only few that stand out and this Rolls is one of them . 

last one sold at RM auction back in 2017 for 1,23 million  .  Henley Roadster bring 1.7 million  and I think the sport sedan is more attractive than the Roadster . but thats my Owen opinion  .  feel free to contact me for any farther info or questions  . 

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Interesting comments on the car......is that the Atwell’s old car? Texas comment makes me think so. It’s probably the most valuable Ghost(Springfield) on the planet.........question is, what is the Ghost discount number?

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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19 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Interesting comments on the car......is that the Atwell’s old car? Texas comment makes me think so. It’s probably the most valuable Ghost(Springfield) on the planet.........question is, what is the Ghost discount number?


I agree it is probably the most expensive Springfield ghost.

 

I’ll find out if it was ever in the Atwell collection.

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9 hours ago, BucketofBolts said:

Why would someone place this vehicle on Graigslist for $5 that was paid to post the vehicle for sale and then post the incorrect Model year instead of placing with an action house that will get top dollar? 

 

I didn't look up the series designation,  but I think it is a 26 Silver Ghost so the year is correct.    The fact that the coachwork was swapped later doesn't change the 1926 designation.

 

Craigs List is really bad idea,  agreed.    An auction house might not be the right place though, unless they know they have a customer for it in advance.   

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9 hours ago, edinmass said:

Interesting comments on the car......is that the Atwell’s old car? Texas comment makes me think so. It’s probably the most valuable Ghost(Springfield) on the planet.........question is, what is the Ghost discount number?

 

I got the scoop from the guy that would know.   A guy named G.L.  Waggoner who was a Rancher near San Antonio had it done in the 30s,  then it was in the Witte  Museum in San Antonio.

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Here is a through the windshield view of a Special Newmarket..............location was driving onto the field at Villa d’Est. It was before six in the morning and the sun was just coming up.

5A21CAD4-B44C-423D-971B-D800F390CB06.png

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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On 2/5/2021 at 11:18 AM, alsancle said:

 

 

If somebody wants to pay the 85 bucks to the RROC we can get the full accounting of the car.    1935 sounds about right for Brewster to use a leftover PII Special New Market body on an earlier car.



That body was the most expensive they ever built.....it was NOT a leftover. 

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Almost through Gentile's "Rolls Royce Phantom II Continental".   He is definitely opinionated and not afraid to share it.    I agree with Keith in that the AJS/AMS cars are sort of skipped over.   Although the book has "Continental" in the title,  he goes in to great detail describing the chassis differences with each PII series along with lots of pictures of cars from each.   Except for the AJS/AMS series that each get a page or two and no description of the chassis differences besides the accommodations for LHD.    

 

One thing that I didn't agree with,  but maybe it is the difference between 1980 and now is that he said RHD cars were more valuable than LHD.    I would guess a RHD would do well in England,  while the LHD cars would do better in Europe and the United States - all things like body style equal.

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I think Gentile is correct when he says that the AMS/AJS was not a huge commercial success at the time but what cars of this type were back then, most people were broke. However I think he has been prematurely dismissive of their importance in keeping the RR brand relevant in post depression America without which I believe RR would have lost their foothold in the US and as a consequence would most likely have gone bust, I believe it was in that context that RR took the decision to go ahead with what they knew would be a big loss maker, remember this was an almost complete redesign and re-tool for just 200 scheduled cars. How many prestige car maker can thrive without a strong position in the US market? Answer: None. 

 

As for driving a LHD truck like a P2 in the wrong side of the road, in modern traffic with 1930s agility and poor rear visibility? Well “not much fun” would be putting it mildly which would explain their less desirable status here. I would much prefer a RHD version but good looking P2 saloon restoration projects rarely come along these days so when one did I had to take the plunge and snap it up otherwise I could have been waiting a decade for a similar opportunity. 

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Having driven just about everything with wheels in the high end category from the 30’s.........and being a hard but fair judge of platforms.......a PII Rolls is NOT a truck. Not even close. I have driven them in city rush hour traffic, and through the Alps on narrow roads with switchbacks and very little room to maneuver. Never had a problem, pulled every hill, and was extremely comfortable with the entire process. Yes, it was an AJS........while I still prefer a PI over a PII.............Rolls Royce has never built a truck in my experience. If you enjoy mechanical things.........you can’t get much better than a Springfield car of any year. If you think they are truck like........drive a few other cars of the era. Your likely to find them heavier to handle across the spectrum. Here is my retired trusty side kick.......with a unusual PI with a Murphy body. Both the car and the gentlemen are rather colorful! Yes....the Chrome Yellow is the original factory color, and was offered by Packard at the same time also.

8D954043-A482-4956-9046-3524AD050270.png

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, edinmass said:

Having driven just about everything with wheels in the high end category from the 30’s.........and being a hard but fair judge of platforms.......a PII Rolls is NOT a truck. Not even close. I have driven them in city rush hour traffic, and through the Alps on narrow roads with switchbacks and very little room to maneuver. Never had a problem, pulled every hill, and was extremely comfortable with the entire process. Yes, it was an AJS........while I still prefer a PI over a PII.............Rolls Royce has never built a truck in my experience. If you enjoy mechanical things.........you can’t get much better than a Springfield car of any year. If you think they are truck like........drive a few other cars of the era. Your likely to find them heavier to handle across the spectrum. Here is my retired trusty side kick.......with a unusual PI with a Murphy body. Both the car and the gentlemen are rather colorful! Yes....the Chrome Yellow is the original factory color, and was offered by Packard at the same time also.

8D954043-A482-4956-9046-3524AD050270.png

 

 

When I first saw the picture I thought it was you in your youth.   HAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

 

https://content.invisioncic.com/r277599/monthly_2017_08/5889278_orig.jpg.d4cfcbeb8fc46bd14dbda9a174b37b71.jpg

 

 

 

 

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I was watching one of the Jay Leno in Newport video's yesterday, the one with the twin six Packard.   They pull up in front of one of the mansions and they have a PI Springfield sitting there.   So they were doing the side by side comparison of the earlier Packard with the Rolls.     I would say that 95% of everything Jay says is accurate and spot on.    EXCEPT,  he was pissing on the Rolls grill and hood treatment which I couldn't understand.   From the time I was a little lad I gravitated to the Rolls radiator and hood - especially prewar.  

IMG_7492.jpg

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Btw,  does anyone know what happened to this PI Trouville?

Sold for 40k at Bonhams 10 years ago.    Cue Ed saying "The most expensive Rolls Royce is the cheapest Rolls Royce".

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19385/lot/721

 

According to the Schoellkopf cards provided by the Rolls-Royce Owners Club in Mechanicsburg, PA, S241FP was delivered new with Oxford coachwork, which had been transferred from Silver Ghost S208 ML. Its first owner was a Mr. Thomas who kept the car for only a few months before it was transferred to Mrs. Mary E.H. Rutter a noted philanthropist from Utica, NY who was known to purchase dog licenses for the poor who could not afford them. Five years after her acquisition, following the styling trends of the day in preference to the retrospective decision to change the chassis rather than coachwork, the then owners brought the car up to date by commissioning a new Trouville Town Car to be fitted to their existing chassis and running gear. Mrs. Rutter died in 1941 and it would seem that at this point the car passed to its next owner L.W. Bristow, care of Brawn Co. of Portland, ME as it is known to have been with him by 1942. On the RROC records there is one final noted keeper, G. Walter Johnson of Wilbraham, MA in the mid-1970s.

RollsTrouville-2.png

RollsTrouville-1.png

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Last I knew.......it was bought to turn into a parts car. Then the new owner had a change of heart. I think it had a bad head. Anyways, last I knew, they were putting the roof back to a town car, and trying to make a driver out of it. I lost track of it about five years ago........

 

 

Auction report.........."head has a minor freeze crack"............and your daughter is just a little bit pregnant!"

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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I like it better as a sedan.

 

The Trouville is an early car so it would have had the steel head.    Keith,  PII is Aluminum?    Is anybody still making the heads?

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I read in the RREC Advertiser that a batch of PII heads has been made and was available. As to the price and quality I don’t know I’m afraid.

 

They are aluminium and can be difficult to weld because of the boiled linseed oil porosity treatment but once your welder knows what to expect (bit of a firework display) a sound repair can be achieved. Remember the water jacket is just a container filled with hot water, no pressure not boiling so it’s basically doing the job of a coffee pot transferring heat from metal into the water. I know of a pre war RR that has been driving around for 25 years with a cylinder head repaired with Belzona, no problems and no leaking, not ideal but it works and you wouldn’t find the repair if you examined the engine all day long. 

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On 2/7/2021 at 8:53 AM, alsancle said:

I was trying to research G.L. Waggoner  and found out that the Waggoner Ranch was almost as big as the famous King Ranch.   Did not find G.L. directly but it would make sense given how much money was spent on a car at the height of the depression.

 

https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/showdown-at-waggoner-ranch/

His daughter was Electra - supposedly the Buick Electra was named after her. 

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17 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Auction report.........."head has a minor freeze crack"............and your daughter is just a little bit pregnant!"

And Fiennes I believe does not have an PI heads in stock and parts run is not looking good.  They may have a head or two at Vintage Garage, but I think those are no longer available either. 

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15 hours ago, Keith Ward said:

I read in the RREC Advertiser that a batch of PII heads has been made and was available. As to the price and quality I don’t know I’m afraid.

 

They are aluminium and can be difficult to weld because of the boiled linseed oil porosity treatment but once your welder knows what to expect (bit of a firework display) a sound repair can be achieved. Remember the water jacket is just a container filled with hot water, no pressure not boiling so it’s basically doing the job of a coffee pot transferring heat from metal into the water. I know of a pre war RR that has been driving around for 25 years with a cylinder head repaired with Belzona, no problems and no leaking, not ideal but it works and you wouldn’t find the repair if you examined the engine all day long. 

My former car had all the money in the World and resources too - they tried to deal with 3 heads and finally bought one from Vintage Garage (the bill was 20K and there was another 20K of radiator work, water pump work, and ...., plus labor).  The best repaired original one made for an interesting step at the barn door. 

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15 hours ago, alsancle said:

I like it better as a sedan.

 

The Trouville is an early car so it would have had the steel head.    Keith,  PII is Aluminum?    Is anybody still making the heads?

Don't worry, steel heads go bad too - not often, but they do. 

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18 hours ago, alsancle said:

 I would say that 95% of everything Jay says is accurate and spot on.    EXCEPT,  he was pissing on the Rolls grill and hood treatment which I couldn't understand.   From the time I was a little lad I gravitated to the Rolls radiator and hood - especially prewar.  

IMG_7492.jpg

Simple is modern (and definitely a well protected/patented and iconic design) - not sure why the issue via how aged the car supposedly looked. 

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I guess there must be cylinder head repairers and there are engineers, all three of my cylinder heads are pressure tested, crack tested and thickness mapped they are all fine one on the car and 2 ready to go, however I use local engineering companies, I tell them how to clean it, what to weld and what to repair or replace. The last head I put on the shelf ready to use, I machined myself, it cost me £700 to buy and about £700 to recondition. 
 

I understood that a fully assembled new head from Fiennes with valves etc was less than £10k plus taxed.

 

I’m afraid I’m not rich enough to throw it at a car, every penny I throw at my car has to count. 

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5 hours ago, Keith Ward said:

I guess there must be cylinder head repairers and there are engineers, all three of my cylinder heads are pressure tested, crack tested and thickness mapped they are all fine one on the car and 2 ready to go, however I use local engineering companies, I tell them how to clean it, what to weld and what to repair or replace. The last head I put on the shelf ready to use, I machined myself, it cost me £700 to buy and about £700 to recondition. 
 

I understood that a fully assembled new head from Fiennes with valves etc was less than £10k plus taxed.

 

I’m afraid I’m not rich enough to throw it at a car, every penny I throw at my car has to count. 

 

Any recent driving videos or pictures Keith?   It is a AMS car with Park Ward body, correct?

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Hi AJ, yes it is 215AMS with a Park Ward touring saloon body. Unfortunately the body work hasn’t progressed to my satisfaction so I have recalled the car to my workshops so I can deal with a few issues myself. When things are back on track I will probably take some pictures. 
 

However I did run the engine the other day for the first time since March and it started first turn and ran very sweetly. 

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On 2/10/2021 at 8:11 AM, alsancle said:

I was watching one of the Jay Leno in Newport video's yesterday, the one with the twin six Packard.   They pull up in front of one of the mansions and they have a PI Springfield sitting there.   So they were doing the side by side comparison of the earlier Packard with the Rolls.     I would say that 95% of everything Jay says is accurate and spot on.    EXCEPT,  he was pissing on the Rolls grill and hood treatment which I couldn't understand.   From the time I was a little lad I gravitated to the Rolls radiator and hood - especially prewar.  

IMG_7492.jpg


 

Flat windshield PII.........👎

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12 hours ago, edinmass said:

More than you.........and the two sitting 150 feet from me as I type this. Don’t nit pick, or I will bust you ass.

 

The nit pick would be to point out only one is open,  although I wouldn't throw the closed one out of my garage.  There are 100 AJS cars and 25 AMS cars,   I'm thinking 30-35 are open cars (not counting town cars).

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This picture was taken in 1951 at the Studebaker Proving grounds.   A Springfield Ascot with late headlights and bumpers but early fenders.   Anyone know which car it is?    I don't like phaetons but LOVE Ascots for some reason.

AJ273-Web.jpg

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