American Rolls Royce (Ghost, PI & PII)

[John_Mereness]

On 3/21/2021 at 9:25 AM, alsancle said:

Gatsby Rolls is still for sale,  this time on eBay.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1928-Rolls-Royce-Phantom-I-/143983892340

 

See inspection report, full photos, videos and more at . Robert Redfords Gatsby Rolls. This is one of the very few cars ever to hold co-star status within a great American classic novel, an iconic movie, and an actor such as Robert Redford. This 1928 Rolls-Royce 40/50hp Phantom I Ascot Dual Cowl Sport Phaeton is nearly perfect after benefiting from a thorough restoration with marque experts with a total investment of about $1.2 million. We believe it is safe to say that between its provenance on the silver screen and the restoration, this is one of the most important Rolls-Royces in existence. F. Scott Fitzgerald selected a Rolls-Royce as the car to be featured in his classic and timeless novel, The Great Gatsby. The car was described in detail in the novel and was an important highlight in the movie as well. And with an all-star cast selected by Paramount studios, it was important that the Rolls-Royce was equally as stunning. Robert Redford starred alongside Mia Farrow to create this all-time classic movie. S304KP was just the right car to co-star with Robert Redford. It had been owned by Ted Leonard who was a well known collector from Seekonk, Massachusetts. The Rolls is likely the only Ascot sport phaeton built as a dual cowl. And this was one of the details F. Scott Fitzgerald included in his description of Jay Gatsbys Rolls: He saw me looking with admiration at his car. Its pretty, isnt it, old sport! He jumped off to give me a better view. Havent you ever seen it before? Id seen it. Everybody had seen it. It was a rich cream color, bright with nickel, swollen here and there in its monstrous length with triumphant hat-boxes and supper-boxes and tool-boxes, and terraced with a labyrinth of wind-shields that mirrored a dozen suns. Sitting down behind many layers of glass in a sort of green leather conservatory, we started to town. After being selected as The Gatsby Rolls, S304KP required its livery repainted in the creamy yellow combination and its leather interior to be dyed in an elegant green. The result was perfect. Chassis S304KP was originally a Town Brougham delivered to Mildred Loring Logan of New York City, and was later owned by American Tobacco Company president, George Washington Hill. There is no documented history in the Rolls-Royce factory Schoellkopf Cards from 1929 through 1964. The research determines that the Ascot body was originally mounted onto chassis S240RM and that the body was moved onto chassis S304KP sometime during or after 1945. The history of the Rolls is well researched and documented, and copies of the related factory and historical information accompany the motorcar. Mr. Leonard acquired the car just in time for the starring role as The Gatsby Rolls. The Leonards maintained ownership of S304KP for the next 36 years. In 2009, The Gatsby Rolls was sold at auction from Leonards estate to John OQuinn of Houston, Texas. Mr. OQuinn died suddenly a few months later, and the car was eventually sold to the current owners, for whom a ground-up restoration was completed from 2011 through 2019. Many of the leading experts were involved in the restoration. Steve Littin from Vintage & Auto Rebuilds in Chardon, Ohio did the full mechanical restoration and the paint and body restoration was performed by Shawn Robinson from Yesterdays in Tyler, Texas. The Gatsby Rolls is nearly perfect today after a total investment in the restoration of about $1.2 million. It would be welcomed at any concours event throughout the world, and had been invited to be shown at the 2019 Pebble Beach Concours. The elegant cream paint is excellent in all respects and is accented by the abundance of concours quality chrome. The green leather interior is complimented by the tan Haartz cloth canvas convertible top and the beautiful wood dashboard with chrome bezels. The Ascot body is widely considered one of the most stunning designs of the classic period. It is both sporty and elegant. We have an appraisal for The Gatsby Rolls supporting the asking price. But more importantly, we believe this Rolls is priced well. It is well known that such iconic classics that are indelibly fixed into our memories and culture, are sought after the world over. This explains the values for such items as the decrepit Bullet Mustang selling for $3.74 million in January 2020 and Paul Newmans Rolex selling for $17.8 million in October 2017. The Great Gatsby as a book has sold about 30 million copies and the number of people who have watch the classic movie is beyond estimation. This is an important fixture in Americas culture. This may be a once in a lifetime opportunity to acquire one of the most important Rolls-Royces in the world. The Gatsby Rolls is owned by The Chamberlain Foundation, a not-for-profit. Its purpose is to help educate future restorers of collector cars and watch makers. Certain tax advantages may be available to the purchaser of the motorcar. The Gatsby Rolls is available for viewing and inspection in Texas. Please call, text or email Harry Clark at 1.602.245.7200 or .

A hood explanation would be nice ? 

Edited March 26, 2021 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[Keith Ward]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

We believe it is safe to say that between its provenance on the silver screen and the restoration, this is one of the most important Rolls-Royces in existence

Hmmm, that's a big claim, perhaps one of the most famous but "Important" I'm not sure

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, Keith Ward said:

Hmmm, that's a big claim, perhaps one of the most famous but "Important" I'm not sure

 

Having actually driven some of the most important and famous Rolls Royce cars in existence.........I can tell you this car wouldn’t make the top 200 on my list of either adjective. 
 

Joe- as far as a number, your analysis is off........way off...........the multiple is six NOT four.

[alsancle]

I copied my thoughts from the for sale thread.   Wondering what you guys think?

 

To understand the market for a car like this you can look at this comp from RM Monterey a couple of years ago.   Identical Ascot with rock solid history brought 280K all in.   There are four differences that I can see:

 

1.  The yellow car had a rear deck added to it, in period or after.

 

2.  The yellow car has a movie history.

 

3.  The green car was built new with the body it carries.

 

4.  The green car is one of a few that has no exterior door hinges.

 

So,  the question is how much is the deck and the movie history worth?   Typically movie appearances (with a few notable exceptions)  don't bring huge premiums. 

 

[alsancle]

This was taken at Watkins Glenn in 1956.   Springfield Ghost with Piccadilly body?

[JV Puleo]

I think it's an iron head PI unless it was heavily updated. Servo operated front brakes and vertical shutters on the radiator. Some Ghosts were updated with front brakes but I've only seen Westinghouse air brakes fitted to a ghost chassis and this car has the cables running back to the servo on the transmission. They may well have done the complete change over but putting P1 styled 4-wheel brakes on a Ghost chassis would have required changing the transmission.

Edited April 12, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[motoringicons]

I also think it is an early, iron head Springfield PI, most likely built in 1927.

[Cadillac Fan]

On 3/22/2021 at 8:49 AM, alsancle said:

I copied my thoughts from the for sale thread.   Wondering what you guys think?

 

To understand the market for a car like this you can look at this comp from RM Monterey a couple of years ago.   Identical Ascot with rock solid history brought 280K all in.   There are four differences that I can see:

 

1.  The yellow car had a rear deck added to it, in period or after.

 

2.  The yellow car has a movie history.

 

3.  The green car was built new with the body it carries.

 

4.  The green car is one of a few that has no exterior door hinges.

 

So,  the question is how much is the deck and the movie history worth?   Typically movie appearances (with a few notable exceptions)  don't bring huge premiums. 

 

Is this the same car?

 

 

 

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/747-Patterson-Pl_Pacific-Palisades_CA_90272_M27738-31171

Edited April 13, 2021 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[alsancle]

29 minutes ago, Cadillac Fan said:

Is this the same car?

 

 

 

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/747-Patterson-Pl_Pacific-Palisades_CA_90272_M27738-31171

yes.

[alsancle]

Gatsby Rolls is back on ebay with a 1,000,000 dollar buy it now.   

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1928-Rolls-Royce-Phantom-I-/144011272998

[edinmass]

I’ll be collecting my social security before that thing changes hands.

[alsancle]

1931 Rolls-Royce Phantom II (237AJS) LHD Keswick Town Car by Brewster

 

162K

 

1931 Rolls Royce Phantom II,  rare and original Derby built LHD specification,  Keswick Town Car by Brewster USA,

recently restored, concourse condition, ready to go.

History of the car:

1931 Phantom II (237AJS) Keswick Town Car by Brewster was originally bodied as Croydon Convertible Coupe by Brewster owned by J. Cheney Wells, Chief of the American Optical Company. It was one of 125 Derby built,factory original LHD chassis, dedicated to American market. In Aug 1939, the Croydon body was swapped by Inskip with the Keswick Town Car which was on 1931 chassis 217AJS (Brewster body #7315). It is not known if the swap was decided by one the owners or by J.S. Inskip himself. The new owner was Mrs Anne Taylor Thomas whose husband Benjamin F. Thomas was a lawyer with great flair: in 1889 with a lawyer friend, Joseph B. Whitehead, he persuaded Asa Candler, the owner of the Coca Cola formula, to sell them the exclusive rights to bottle the famous drink. They became millionaires. There are 3 more known owners of the car in the USA. 237AJS with its Keswick body was illustrated in John Webb de Campi's book"Rolls-Royce in America" p. 140. Keswick Town Car body was dedicated to Phantom II chassis, only 12 cars was bodied with ‘Keswick’ design and a mere 3 survived till today. 237AJS was imported back to the UK in 2012. The present owners acquired the car in 2014. After a few short tours decision was taken to restore the car, what took 5 years. The car has been recently featured in RREC bulletin “Spirit and Speed” as well as in 20-Ghost Club 70 anniversary book.

Restoration:

The Phantom II has been restored down to the finest detail, from the chassis frame to all components and systems. It’s engine was dismantled and rebuilt, all pistons, bearings, valves and guides were replaced. The brake system, gearbox, clutch, magneto, dynamo, radiator, pump, Autovac ,in a word, all fully restored. The chassis received new wiring with the correct colors cotton covers, correct terminals and marks. The Keswick body underwent a complete rebuild, all wooden elements were checked, panels repaired but all left original (no part has been replaced). New upholstery was made as exact copy of original, using all correct materials imported from the USA, specific leather and woolen fabric, done by expert using period techniques, exactly as in the original specification. All wooden veneered elements of the interior are in perfect condition, no element has been replaced, only the varnish has been refreshed. All chrome and nickel parts received new, proper plating, including details of the engine accessories, which were covered with dull nickel. New paint, cream and black, reflects original Brewster design found at factory pictures. New Firestone whitewall tires and fitted all around. The 237AJS was presented at the RREC concourse in 2019, where it received nice score, favorable opinions and a number of advice from the judges to improve this car before the next competition. Additionally, the owner consulted the development of the car at the annual RREC seminar at The Hunt House. All suggestions were taken into account and implemented during the works in the winter 2019-2020 and the car was ready for the next concourse in 2020, which unfortunately was canceled. Currently, 237 AJS is in concourse condition, cosmetically and mechanically. It is regularly used and ready for long journeys. The odometer shows  1500 miles, she is just run-in, fine-tuned, refined in details. 

The restoration process is fully documented with several hundreds of pictures. The cost of restoration is also fully documented and eye watering. A thick pile of bills from Fiennes Restoration, Ristes Motors, Derby Plating, SMS fabrics, AJ Glew, Wefco Geiters, Autovac, to name a few. Incredible number of over 10.000 hours has been spent on the car’s restoration to bring her to full glory.

Driving experience:

The Phantom II was designed to impress. Its long bonnet, overall dimensions and almost 8 liter engine gives a feeling of power. To say it’s a head turner would be understatement, she really makes You feel very, very special. Public reaction is very positive as prewar cars need love, enthusiasm and much attention, not only money spent. People appreciate it, we were surrounded by smiley faces wherever we stopped. The engine produces plenty of torque, there is no need to gear down from 4th, she pulls from 10 to 70+ mph. Relax cruising speed is 55-60 mph. The 4 wheel breaking system with servo mechanism is surprisingly effective, steering is well responsive. Suspension is fully restored (springs,lubrication, dumpers) and the car glides beautifully. Oil pressure 25-30, water always below 90*C even in hottest days, calorstat restored, opens and closes shutters as intended. The Keswick Town Car is equipped with folding front roof and tilting windscreen, letting the driver Al-fresco motoring feel, while the rear cabin is a luxury saloon and separates passengers from external world. It’s actually a perfect all weather car. Very rare original left hand drive configuration makes driving easier in continental Europe or USA. Central lubrication system makes maintenance simple and pleasant.

Summary:

- very original car with interesting, documented history

- recently resorted, just run-in, millage  1500 miles.

- concourse condition, rare opportunity to enter next concourse with fully prepared and widely consulted car

- perfect mechanical  condition,  the car is fully serviced for 2021 season, all checks and adjustments done, oil replaced, fluids re-filled. 

- full documentation of restoration process, photos, bills, literature, comprehensive correct and original tool kit, original handbook, original Derby LHD sale brochure, books featuring the car, all goes with the car.

- registered in Poland as regular car with valid EU MOT (technical acceptance test), no need for any export permission, 

Location: Northern Poland, Bydgoszcz.

[Keith Ward]

This is a real mystery to me, thought to be a Rolls Royce LHD gear shift lever which is situated to the left of the driver instead of the usual central location. Has anybody any knowledge of this, is it a very early Springfield Ghost or a prototype unit, any help identifying it would be appreciated 

[alsancle]

Bonhams has a nice older restoration Hibbard and Darrin PI.   Not sure why there are no pictures with the top up.  

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/26618/lot/167

 

1927 Rolls-Royce Phantom I Transformal Phaeton
Coachwork by Hibbard & Darrin
Chassis no. S355FM
Engine no. 20557

7,672cc OHV Inline 6-Cylinder Engine
Single Dual-Throat Carburetor
108bhp at 2,300 rpm
3-Speed Manual Transmission
4-Wheel Leaf Spring Suspension
4-Wheel Drum Brakes

*Offered from single ownership since 1984
*A truly sporting, innovative, and dramatic Springfield Phantom I
*Wonderfully detailed, dynamic design by Howard Darrin
*Well-preserved AACA, CCCA, and national concours award-winning restoration
*Accompanied by Rolls-Royce Foundation documentation

THE TRANSFORMAL PHAETON

Every one of the American Rolls-Royces built at Springfield, Massachusetts, was quietly elegant. Some were truly beautiful. Few were downright dashing and sporting, and those that were often bore the distinctive imprint of Hibbard & Darrin, one of the few Parisian coachbuilders to work on the American chassis. It was only appropriate, as Thomas Hibbard and Howard Darrin were themselves Americans, young expatriates living the high life in Paris when not designing spectacular, highly detailed and innovative coachwork for the world's wealthiest personages. A total of 35 Hibbard & Darrin bodies were mounted to Springfield Phantom I chassis, and the survivors are among the most prized of their type.

The delightfully named Transformal Phaeton was among Hibbard & Darrin's finest offerings. At its heart a convertible sedan, it was built using the coachbuilder's patented Silentlyte method, with a cast aluminum inner framework and pressed aluminum outer panels, resulting in a body that was both strong and lightweight. A narrow molding at the hood swept up in a blade-like curve as it reached the cowl, while the sides of the body featured the prominent beltline molding common to Hibbard & Darrin's bodies in this period.

Perhaps the Transformal Phaeton's most instantly distinctive feature was the top, which was relatively low and featured circus tent-like flaps that neatly filled the space between trapezoidal side windows, creating a very unique appearance when the top was raised. A center division served as a windbreak when the top was lowered. The woodwork across the dashboard and door panels, elaborately figured and detailed, was a Darrin signature feature, and one that made the highly tailored interior of the Transformal Phaeton instantly stand apart from coachwork by Brewster and the like. In many ways, this was the most European body mounted to the Springfield Phantom I – and it was more extravagant and eyecatching that virtually anything mounted to a Derby Phantom I by a continental coachbuilder!

It is believed that fewer than five Phantom Is were delivered with similar Transformal Phaeton coachwork, one of which was famously owned by Marlene Dietrich and featured in her 1930 film Morocco. The survivors are well-loved by their owners and in recent years several have become part of permanent museum collections, leaving the opportunity to acquire a Transformal Phaeton particularly scarce, indeed.

THE MOTORCAR OFFERED

The example offered here, chassis no. S355FM, was delivered on April 13, 1928, to the original owner, Mr. George G. Bourne, at his residence at The Madison, a luxurious hotel located at 15 East 58th Street in New York City. Mr. Bourne was the son of Frederick G. Bourne, the founder of the Singer sewing machine company, and the family enjoyed both tremendous wealth and a passion for both yachting and fine cars that extended through several branches. The younger Bourne was a partner in the stock brokerage firm of Talcott, Porter & Company, and at the time of acquiring the Phantom I, only a few years removed from a marriage to paper heiress Helen Cole Whitney. He was, in other words, exactly the type of aristocratic, young devil-may-care sportsman one would have expected to find in the Transformal Phaeton!

According to its Rolls-Royce Foundation records, by 1952 the car had been acquired by George A. Briggs of North Augusta, South Carolina, then passed within the year to George Lawson, also of North Augusta. In early 1955 it was purchased by early American Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost enthusiast, Archie Hough of Monroe, North Carolina, who held on to the car until Mr. Kershaw acquired it for his collection in 1984 – completing a wonderfully short and tidy chain of owners.

A meticulous complete restoration followed, completed in 1988. S355FM was shown the following year at the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance, receiving the prestigious Lucius Beebe Trophy as the most elegant Rolls-Royce present. Afterward Mr. Kershaw, in typical fashion, continued to refine the car's presentation and mechanical condition with the hopes of bringing home even more laurels, a hope that was fulfilled.

In 1990 the car was awarded 2nd Place in the Phantom I class at the Rolls-Royce Owners' Club National Meet in Newport, Rhode Island. The Antique Automobile Club of America bestowed a Senior First Prize in 1992, as well as a National Award nomination. In Classic Car Club of America judging, the Rolls proved tremendously successful, as well, achieving Senior Premier honors at the 1993 Annual Meeting and bearing badge no. 1507SP. More recently the car received Best in Class here at the Amelia Island Concours d'Elegance.

Today the very well-done restoration remains strikingly well-preserved, with the only signs of use in typical high-wear areas within the interior and engine compartment, and is still extremely attractive from top to bottom. Most importantly, like all of Mr. Kershaw's automobiles, the Phantom I has been superbly maintained, on-the-button. This was demonstrated in a recent road test in which S355FM was exercised and found to be smooth, quiet, and superbly well-behaved, exactly as a proper Springfield Phantom I should be. It is truly an automobile that's condition reflects the passion and love its owner has had for it.

There are few more prestigious examples of the American Rolls-Royce than a Transformal Phaeton. Jauntily designed and lavishly appointed, fairly dripping power and wealth, it was an automobile that looked the part of the car owned by "an American in Paris" – fitting, as that was precisely who had designed it. This is almost certainly the finest example presently available, from over 35 years of loving care in one of this country's most superb, carefully curated, and well-maintained collections.

[Keith Ward]

Wot? No Whitewalls!!! I thought they were obligatory in the US on pre-war Rolls Royce cars 😉 

[alsancle]

14 minutes ago, Keith Ward said:

Wot? No Whitewalls!!! I thought they were obligatory in the US on pre-war Rolls Royce cars 😉 

 

Depends on if I've got my hands on the car or the owner.   I'm on a mission to eradicate white walls from the antique car hobby.

[Keith Ward]

I can certainly work with you on that worthy cause Al.

[alsancle]

High bid of 380k on nice older restoration of a 27 PI Hubbard and Darrin.   Should have sold. Bonhams Sale at Amelia.

[alsancle]

Sold for 90k plus vig at Bonhams.

[JV Puleo]

On 5/18/2021 at 7:40 AM, alsancle said:

 

Depends on if I've got my hands on the car or the owner.   I'm on a mission to eradicate white walls from the antique car hobby.

 

To quote an old friend - "they make the car look like it's sitting on roller skates."

[alsancle]

Look what is getting flipped from the Mitosinka auction:

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mt20/the-mitosinka-collection/lots/r0011-1930-rolls-royce-phantom-i-newmarket-convertible-sedan-by-brewster/919143

 

On Ebay:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1930-Rolls-Royce-Phantom-I-Brewster-/224483284797

 

Given the lack of any real documentation of the Darrin modification claim I would take that with a grain of salt.

[alsancle]

Cross posted from the "not mine for sale" forum:

 

I need to look up this body style cause it looks like an Avon to me.  Right John?   What a great car, but I'm not sure it will find a buyer considering the  27 Avon that was nice, sorted by Steve Litton and only brought 70k at Amelia in 2020.   It was bought by a dealer who then put it up for 90k.

 

As a late Springfield it has all the nice late style features as well as probably an aluminum head which I think are around 20k these days if you can still get one.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1930-Rolls-Royce-Phantom-/265218454724

 

had hoped to restore this fine old, rare, Rolls-Royce but so much to do and so little time. Time to pass it on.

This 1930 Springfield Mayfair Rolls-Royce Phantom 1, # S 117PR was quite the car in its day. Big, massive, with really

nice lines. A very impressive sight going down the road. This example is mostly complete, and does require a total restoration-but

well worth it. Very few of this body style left in the world. The aluminum body is something else. I would keep it unpainted as the

straight aluminum bodies look so cool. The body appears in good shape, solid wood except a bit of replacement is needed on the

passenger door side strut-not a major thing. No rust or rot on the steel or aluminum that we can see. The interior is basically shot

and will have to be redone to your liking. The fabric top was removed and the woodwork prepared for a new one. The top wood frame

seems solid and OK. The rear seats are still intact for pattern matching. The front seats for the driver were leather and a simple matter

of recovering. The gas tank was rebuilt and is inside the car for storage. The car comes with four brand new tires from Coker ($2200).

It appears the engine head was serviced and installed.  The engine turns freely but will need some work to make running. Four wheel brakes seem OK but the mechanical parts of the car appear all there but untested.

Car last ran in the 1980's. In good storage in Maine. We can store for you until you arrange pickup. Sold as is-where is. Have good title on the car.   207             889                       0039 for more info.

[edinmass]

Bad wood is easy to replace..........upholstery is easy to do. It runs.........35 years ago, maybe. Nice car. Just add 850k and four years time and you can take it for a drive. It today’s world.....it’s parts. And that is scary.

[alsancle]

22 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Bad wood is easy to replace..........upholstery is easy to do. It runs.........35 years ago, maybe. Nice car. Just add 850k and four years time and you can take it for a drive. It today’s world.....it’s parts. And that is scary.

 

Makes me sad.

 

Here is the Avon I referenced:

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/am20/amelia-island/lots/r0010-1927-rolls-royce-phantom-i-avon-sedan-by-brewster/828179

 

 

[JV Puleo]

I don't know Ed..I'd take it on if I was 15 years younger and had a place to work on something that big. The scary part to me is it's an aluminum head PI so the head is a big question mark but if it's sound as is, I'd remove it without starting the engine and do everything I could to stabilize it.

[alsancle]

Joe, you are one of the few guys I know that could take this on as a home project.  There are very few of you left.  If the head is junk that is 20k right off the bat.

[Keith Ward]

I’ve repaired 2 aluminium heads and they have both worked fine, the thing that kills them more than anything is if it has suffered too many unnecessary skims, usually carried out but not always needed as these heads have a degree of compliance. 
 

this car would make a great project for somebody, if I had the room I would definitely buy it and be rallying it within 3 years. However I would never be doing it to chase rosettes at pebble beach, my cars only have to please one person….and thats me. 

[alsancle]

Keith, you would be one of the other guys I would think of.

[edinmass]

Can someone please link Bill Davis’s obituary that Steve posted to this thread. He WAS Mr. Rolls Royce.

[alsancle]

 

[JV Puleo]

5 hours ago, alsancle said:

Joe, you are one of the few guys I know that could take this on as a home project.  There are very few of you left.  If the head is junk that is 20k right off the bat.

 

Thanks, I appreciate the compliment but, fortunately, I'm off the hook. I've no place to do it - and a project like that requires at least 4 times the space the car itself takes up - my plate is currently full and I won't live long enough to finish it or at least enjoy it when finished. As it is, I hope to build a garage/workshhop some time in the next 5 years, maybe with room for the machines and 2 cars. I'll be in my mid-70s by then so I can't expect to do much more than light duty stuff. When you are doing nearly all of it yourself, a PI is a heavy duty job. That said, I doubt it would have to come completely apart. Unless its been very badly abused, a PI chassis is practically  indestructible. There are a LOT of fussy things, like the one-shot oiling system, that can be fantastically time consuming but it's not "rebuilding the rear axle" hard to do.

 

I think at this point the only RR I'd be interested in would be a 1921, 1922 or 1923 20HP...in frowsy condition - body not very important...they are practically all ugly by American standards.

[edinmass]

Joe, come on down south, and I’ll take you for a ride in a few interesting Phantoms. Maybe a ride in something else that catches your interest. We have a bunch of great iron. Your always welcome at our collection.

[edinmass]

On 3/21/2021 at 1:41 PM, John_Mereness said:

A hood explanation would be nice ? 

 

It’s a bonnet...........please use correct nomenclature when referring to automobile assemblies! 

[Keith Ward]

6 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

a project like that requires at least 4 times the space the car itself takes up -

Very wise words and an important but too often overlooked aspect of car and vintage machinery restoration

[alsancle]

Last seek I got the chance to examine a 31 PII and a 31 Packard 845 sitting side by side.   The Packard 845 was their top of the line offering that year and was representative of a very high end American car.  I'm thinking it retailed around 6-7k.    The Rolls, with a Brewster body retailed around 19k.      If you go back and forth between the two cars,  the build quality on the RR is very evident.   The detail work on the RR is unbelievable.   It really makes the Packard seem like another world.

 

One thing that struck me was the Packard was 6 volt with a single battery like most American cars of the era.   The Rolls has two huge 12 volt batteries.   Everything under the hood on the RR is finely finished, polished aluminum, brass or painted.   The instrument panel is a work of art.

[edinmass]

The reason a Rolls cost more than four times the Packard is because it has five times more parts......most all machined and hand finished. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

14 hours ago, alsancle said:

One thing that struck me was the Packard was 6 volt with a single battery like most American cars of the era.   The Rolls has two huge 12 volt batteries.   Everything under the hood on the RR is finely finished, polished aluminum, brass or painted.   The instrument panel is a work of art.

 

6-Volt systems never caught on in England and, of course, the PII is an English car even when made for the US market. The American Ghosts were 12-volt also until the very late ones. It was changed to 6-volt because customers were complaining that it was difficult to find 12-volt batteries. More likely their chauffeur's were complaining that they couldn't find a source that would give them the traditional chauffeur's "commission" on a new battery but only the very late American Ghosts and PI's are 6-volt cars.

 

I hadn't really thought about it until I started participating in this forum but, having started out in old cars with RR and Cadillac, I have a very skewed notion of classic era cars. Ed's certainly right about the multitude of beautifully made parts in a RR but that just seems normal to me!

Edited July 7, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I was at a car show once with my late friend EA Mowbray - the owner of most of the Ghosts & PI's I worked on. We were looking at a Senior level Packard - a really beautiful car. The "bonnet" was up and he said to me something to the effect that, compared to a PI, the Packard was about as complicated as a flat iron.

[edinmass]

Interesting comment above........Joe Puleo and “normal” in the same sentence. 🤔

 

Joe, if you are normal, so am I. 

[JV Puleo]

As of tonight, with 13 hours left to run, that PI in Maine has no bids. I am a little surprised at that, not because I think it's a good buy but because I'm frequently amazed at people's capacity for self delusion. I don't think ebay ads for high-end classics are aimed at people who actually know much about them. I suspect that, more often than not, they are aimed at wishful thinkers and result in a dismantled car worth less than was paid for it but with an asking price even higher...

 

A few months ago there was a 1927 20 HP RR on ebay...effectively a chassis since the body was both in poor shape and was a hideous re-body to begin with. It had a "buy it now" price that went down by $500 as each auction timed out until it finally sold for something like $3,500. The 20 is a lot simpler than a PI but it's also a lot less desirable. I was sorely tempted...but I'll wait until I have a place to put it and the Mitchell is done - or nearly so. By the time that happens I may not even care any more. I don't think prices are likely to rise on marginal project cars, even RRs - which I also suspect scare as many people off as they attract.

Edited July 11, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)