American Rolls Royce (Ghost, PI & PII)

[58L-Y8]

12 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

JS Inskip was the Sales Manager at Brewster...as such he probably did have some input regarding design but I think it unlikely he was the actual "designer" of any of the American RR cars though he probably had more to say about the post-RR "Brewsters" on a Ford chassis.

So, do we know any of the names of the designers on the Brewster staff when the American Roll-Royce cars were being designed for the Phantom I and Phantom II?

[Walt G]

If you take the time to look in what has been published - books on the American R-R by John di Campi and Arthur Soutter, Hugo Pfau's comments - much of the design talent in that era came from people who attended Pratt Institute in NY , an art college, got part time work ( at first) from the coach builder's studios finishing up drawings, but also hoping to be recognized for their own ideas/suggestions for future employment. Many lived in the Brooklyn Heights section of NY near the Brooklyn Bridge .

Edited May 21, 2022 by Walt G (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Brewster did NOT give credit or glory to his employees. If you were paid……shut up and do your job. The old man was kind of cheap……….and often used young people without much experience to do drawings and draftings. It was the salesman who had the social and political contacts…….and was paid well. Lots of well known designers worked briefly at Brewster. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I'd also add that Brewster was a very old company. They had been building carriages since the early 19th century, a time when the designers would have been regular workmen not "artists." The idea of identifying a "designer" was probably alien to the way they did business and their reputation was built on doing superlative work in building the carriage or body...not in the design.

 

Also, their clientele was extremely conservative, wealthy people who often didn't want a car that would attract too much attention. Wealthy bankers rather than movie stars. Many of the early roadster bodies and more imaginative designs came from other builders...like Frederick R. Wood or the Springfield Body Company.

Edited May 21, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[alsancle]

The book on the Brewster company is a pretty good read. I bought a copy when Matt bought his Brewster.

 

I’m sure they wouldn’t of lasted past World War II like all the other coachbuilders, but building the Brewster car saddled them with a tremendous amount of debt, which then like a poison pill, took down Rolls Royce of America.

[John_Mereness]

On 5/17/2022 at 6:12 AM, prewarnut said:

 

 

    This looks like it could be a pre-restoration photo of John's from CIncy. Perhaps he can chime in. I remember him mentioning to the group the rare, later, almost PII style body with lowered roof line and raked windshield on a P1. Can't be too many like that. Compare with his photo one page back.

 

 

That is same body as my car had on it, though mine was a PI and the photos are of a PII (body was not common on a PII, but probably a solid half dozen cars  - and a good 4 on the PI chassis, though limited documentation as to them as other than mine most would have been a second body - mine was an all new build late L series built in November 1932, after the factory closed and when you could have bought a PII otherwise).  It would be a Dover "New" and is different from the prior body style offered as a Dover.  There are no know factory photos of my car or any of the other Dover "New" bodied P1's for that matter.

Edited May 23, 2022 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

That is same body as my car had on it, though mine was a PI and the photos are of a PII (body was not common on a PII, but probably a solid half dozen cars  - and a good 4 on the PI chassis, though limited documentation as to them as other than mine most would have been a second body - mine was an all new build late L series built after factory closed in November 1932, when you could have bought a PII otherwise).  It would be a Dover "New" and is different from the prior body style offered as a Dover.  There are no know factory photos of my car or any of the other Dover "New" bodied P1's for that matter.

John, you are right. I should’ve picked up on the dunlop wheels which are easy tell between a PI and a PII.

[Cadillac Fan]

How about this one?

 

 

https://www.classiccardeals.com/Listing/118764/1933-Rolls-Royce-2025-Limousine.aspx

[Matt Harwood]

Do any of you recognize this car? I just found it going through some old photos and my notes say it's a PII by Brewster. I don't know if it's an American RR, however. It does have the traditional squared-off Brewster shape to the rear compartment, very much like the Brewster Fords. I don't know that it's exactly handsome, but it certainly has presence.

 

These photos are from 1996 so I'm sure the car still exists.

 

  

[alsancle]

3 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Do any of you recognize this car? I just found it going through some old photos and my notes say it's a PII by Brewster. I don't know if it's an American RR, however. It does have the traditional squared-off Brewster shape to the rear compartment, very much like the Brewster Fords. I don't know that it's exactly handsome, but it certainly has presence.

 

These photos are from 1996 so I'm sure the car still exists.

 

  

 

Definitely a Phantom II AJS series "Newport" towncar with body by Brewster.   I don't know the chassis number.  The rear mount is fairly rare on towncar so it shouldn't be hard to narrow it down.

 

[edinmass]

28 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Definitely a Phantom II AJS series "Newport" towncar with body by Brewster.   I don't know the chassis number.  The rear mount is fairly rare on towncar so it shouldn't be hard to narrow it down.

 

1931 S209PR…………nice car.

 

[George K]

23 hours ago, edinmass said:

1931 S209PR…………nice car.

 

How about this Brewster body. 

[Kadee]

23 hours ago, edinmass said:

1931 S209PR…………nice car.

 

S209PR is PI and has different style of wheel centre hub. I second opinion of alsancle : PII Newport. Some 18 of these cars have been produced.

I read in this thread about a book on the Brewster company. Is there anyone who could post some more details about this book ?  Thx !!

 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Kadee (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, George K said:

How about this Brewster body. 

 

George,  cool picture of the Arno's Albatross!   Do you know for sure if Inskip did the bodywork?  I do believe it was built in New York so that would make sense. 

[John_Mereness]

On 5/22/2022 at 4:37 PM, Cadillac Fan said:

How about this one?

 

 

https://www.classiccardeals.com/Listing/118764/1933-Rolls-Royce-2025-Limousine.aspx

Nice car, though given it being a 20/25 (the smaller horsepower car) and a sedan (albeit a good looking sedan) you have to have a rather exceptional low mileage car with even more exceptional restoration on it to get into that price range (which is may be).

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, Kadee said:

S209PR is PI and has different style of wheel centre hub. I second opinion of alsancle : PII Newport. Some 18 of these cars have been produced.

I read in this thread about a book on the Brewster company. Is there anyone who could post some more details about this book ?  Thx !!

 

 

 

I don’t see it…….

 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

42 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

George,  cool picture of the Arno's Albatross!   Do you know for sure if Inskip did the bodywork?  I do believe it was built in New York so that would make sense. 

I prefer the White Albatross! 🥸

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, Kadee said:

S209PR is PI and has different style of wheel centre hub. I second opinion of alsancle : PII Newport. Some 18 of these cars have been produced.

I read in this thread about a book on the Brewster company. Is there anyone who could post some more details about this book ?  Thx !!

 

 

[George K]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

George,  cool picture of the Arno's Albatross!   Do you know for sure if Inskip did the bodywork?  I do believe it was built in New York so that would make sense. 

I knew the old curmudgeon that found it. It was built at Inskip’s Long Island shop late. Its on a 1939 Mercury stretched chassis.

[edinmass]

When they handed out ugly, that thing got in line five times. As far as the guy who found it……..he should have tossed it back and kept fishing. 

[George K]

9 hours ago, edinmass said:

When they handed out ugly, that thing got in line five times. As far as the guy who found it……..he should have tossed it back and kept fishing. 

He was out junking not trolling when he snagged it.

[alsancle]

I think it’s cool. I think some skinnier tires would help. The front end is not great, but I like the Victoria back. And with Inskip coachwork you know that it’s well done.

 

For those of you that don’t know the story, this was built as a production prototype for a run of cars, that obviously never happened.

Edited May 24, 2022 by alsancle (see edit history)

[George K]

This from Kimes/Austin Clark,Jr. American Cars.

[alsancle]

Maybe we should start a separate thread on it? I have a bunch of stuff somewhere. I want some street CRED for Just knowing what it was.

[George K]

13 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Maybe we should start a separate thread on it? I have a bunch of stuff somewhere. I want some street CRED for Just knowing what it was.

Ed might not recognize that there is a gambit of taste just outside his fence. I think it looks better than this 1940 Mercury.

[alsancle]

4 minutes ago, George K said:

Ed might not recognize that there is a gambit of taste just outside his fence. I think it looks better than this 1940 Mercury.

Ed has a very small yard.  I always like the rear treatment on those Mercurys.

Edited May 24, 2022 by alsancle (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

...another Springfield unit is up for auction by Bonhams next month in Greenwich. At least they kept the door latched when testing. I'm not sure how many G's they were attempting to pull around the corner.

 

[pbug56]

Just about 50 years ago, we visited Wilkes Barre PA after Hurricane Agnes, both for personal reasons and to check the situation of a car that my father had in a restorer's shop there.  It was a Springfield Rolls Royce, P1 Town Car with the famous RR painted on canework in the rear quarter.  This car had supposedly once belonged to Henry Luce, but along the way (as impossible as this seems) had been run into the ground.  Between my father's distraction from the small company he owned and ran, and the restorer's lack of attention, the car was in the flood zone.  

 

I believe it to be (though I've no idea where it is now) a 1929 Riviera Town Car, by Brewster.  It was less than 100 engines later than a 1928 Springfield P1 limo we had.  The older car had an iron head, the newer aluminum.  Each side of the car had a small, search light like light facing forward.  Now I've been told that these cars had the British style head lights - but this Town Car (based on the pics I looked at a few minutes ago), had the same drum type lights as the older car.  Inside there may have been flower holders.  If you Google P1 Springfield Riviera Town Car, you come up with a very British looking car - the headlights, wheels, etc. but otherwise the same body style.  And a plaque under the hood says Derby / Springfield - I think that chassis was built in Derby, and modified in Springfield with LHD and maybe the 6 volt electricals for the US market.

 

Can any of you, based on description, confirm the car my father had in Wilkes Barre is a Riviera Town Car?  It finally occurred to me that the 1930 Riviera Town Car seen in auction photos and in an article was, as noted above, more British than American, but is somehow listed as Springfield.  The one my father had - the entire part of the car forward of the passenger compartment looks like it had the exact same design as our 1928 limo Springfield P1 had.  Oh, forgot to note that both of my father's cars had the pipe style bumpers on what look like pistons, the one online flat bumpers.

 

Funny thing - as a kid (1960's), I had a book about Rolls Royce history that I've long since lost - but it had a photo of this exact model, looking (though in much better shape) like what we had.

[edinmass]

If the car was listed in the Rolls club, it should be fairly easy to determine it’s fate. It’s likely it was saved in some way………..with only ten of them built, and history in the club back to the fifties……….odds are good you will get an answer. 

[pbug56]

My father was a RROC member, but I don't know if both cars were listed.  I think the limo was.  Years later, my mother sold off or donated all but one of his cars - a Packard.  I didn't know until after or I'd at least have tried to aim them towards an auction house that could understand them.  She wanted to clear out as many things as she could after he could no longer appreciate them.

 

BTW, the first 2 antique cars my dad bought were Pierce Arrows, but someone arm-twisted him into selling them probably before I was born.  

 

I like you how you describe yourself as a mechanic.  I couldn't claim that - but I took as much care of our cars as I could as a teen.  Kept the one Packard running, got the P1 limo running (my fav was removing both carbs so they could be sent off for rebuilding).  When they came back, reinstalled them, then learned the famous 'trick' of starting a warm P1 without using the starter motor.

[alsancle]

There are not a lot of the Riviera town cars so it should not be terrible hard to narrow it down.  Especially if it had cane work on it.   RM auctions sold S390LR a few years ago at Monterey.  Great car.

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mo17/monterey/lots/r204-1929-rolls-royce-phantom-i-riviera-town-car-by-brewster/430363

 

f a custom coachbuilt automobile is a reflection of the style and taste of its owner, then one can easily assume that Irene Schoelkopf Carman was quite a lady. She married well three times, accumulating a vast fortune from the demise of her second husband, C.P. Hugo Schoellkopf, one of the wealthiest men in Buffalo, New York. Over a year after his passing, she invested approximately $19,500 into this utterly splendid Phantom I, one of 10 produced in this style, the Riviera town car.

In an era of stodgy formal town cars, the Riviera was an exception, with curving front doors, a low windshield, and close-coupled bodywork producing an absolutely striking and, yes, sporting design. None, however, were as dramatic as Irene’s. She specified an intercom for directing the chauffeur; a vanity case fitted with a clock, mirror pad, ashtray, and Dunhill lighter; and a reading light over the rear window. Oh, yes, there was also gold – gold-plated exterior trim, everywhere that the eye could see, complemented by canework (or “sham cane”) decorating the rear quarter panels, and interior garnishments of elaborate walnut and mahogany marquetry on the division and inside rear door panels. (All of which, historian Beverly Rae Kimes would later wryly note, “cost extra.”)

The remarkable Rolls was enjoyed by Mrs. Schoellkopf for about three years. In 1932 it was sold to Philadelphia sportsman and socialite James H.R. Cromwell, next passing through a succession of short-term ownerships before its acquisition in the mid-1950s by G. Willard Blauvelt of Herkimer, New York. Mr. Blauvelt was an early Rolls-Royce Owners Club member and took the car to several of their events.

In the mid-1960s the Rolls was sold to Robert McVoy of Poland, New York, who drove it approximately 20,000 miles in three decades, occasionally with his good friend, Governor of New York and future Vice President Nelson Rockefeller, taking a turn at the wheel! During Mr. McVoy’s ownership, the gilded Riviera remained a favorite of historians and journalists, appearing in John Webb deCampi’s Rolls-Royce in America (plate 226) and Kimes’ The Classic Car (p. 700). In the latter, Mr. McVoy said, “The odometer had 50,000 miles when I bought it. There was no rust or rot, and all the original wood,” testifying that the car was not only well maintained in his ownership, but had been for its entire life.

In 1996, Mr. McVoy finally parted with the Riviera, selling it to the great collector Roger Morrison of Salina, Kansas. Rick Hamlin of Rick’s Automotive in Wellington, Kansas, performed a painstaking restoration, preserving the original canework on the rear body panels, as well as the original gold-plated brightwork and extravagant interior wood inlays. This restoration was judged Best in Class and Most Elegant Closed Car at the 2003 Pebble Beach Concours d’Elegance, Most Outstanding Rolls-Royce at the 2004 Amelia Island Concours, and a 100-point winner at the CCCA Michigan Grand Classic. Beverly Rae Kimes again turned her attention to the freshly restored car, documenting its ownership history in a fascinating article in the Summer 2006 issue of The Classic Car, which is recommended reading for all potential buyers.

The Rolls was then acquired by John M. O’Quinn for his legendary collection, from which it was purchased by a respected West Coast collector in 2011. Three years later the car returned to Pebble Beach, where it was again a double award-winner, winning Best in Class, for a second time, and the Lucius Beebe Trophy for Most Elegant Rolls-Royce.

Simply put, few extant Phantom I’s have such spectacular lines, impressive trim, and wonderful provenance as this Riviera, a machine that can be considered one of the most significant examples of its type. It is, like its original owner, bold, flamboyant, and indisputably one of a kind.

 

[alsancle]

This one was Mark Smith's car. 

 

[alsancle]

This might be it.   It is in the Nethercutt.

 

[edinmass]

11 hours ago, pbug56 said:

My father was a RROC member, but I don't know if both cars were listed.  I think the limo was.  Years later, my mother sold off or donated all but one of his cars - a Packard.  I didn't know until after or I'd at least have tried to aim them towards an auction house that could understand them.  She wanted to clear out as many things as she could after he could no longer appreciate them.

 

BTW, the first 2 antique cars my dad bought were Pierce Arrows, but someone arm-twisted him into selling them probably before I was born.  

 

I like you how you describe yourself as a mechanic.  I couldn't claim that - but I took as much care of our cars as I could as a teen.  Kept the one Packard running, got the P1 limo running (my fav was removing both carbs so they could be sent off for rebuilding).  When they came back, reinstalled them, then learned the famous 'trick' of starting a warm P1 without using the starter motor.

Nothing better than the famous PI free start.

 

Post some photos  of your fathers cars please……always interesting to see them back in the old days, and we can probably locate a few of them for you.

[pbug56]

Interesting.  All different.  $19500 seems to have been the 'basic' US price of the Riviera Town Car before customizations like all the gold plating.  And it's interesting to see the one with the US pipe style bumpers and English style wheels.  Ours was pipe bumpers and drum style headlights.  These photos are in a nearly 50 year old album - at some point I'll try to pull them out and scan them.

 

 

[pbug56]

Headlights are obvious.  As are the lights just behind the firewall.  Head is off because it had needed major repair.  

 

Back then, I tried not to waste film for all the obvious reasons.  When I can I'll try to find the negatives, but odds are poor.  You get all sorts of hints of the mud from the flood.

[pbug56]

14 hours ago, alsancle said:

This might be it.   It is in the Nethercutt.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if buyers of P1's in the US could easily choose bumper types and headlight styles.  Oh, and wheel types.  This car, to me, looks 1928 or 1929 except for the British bumpers or lights.

[JV Puleo]

Generally, no but a lot of the cars went back to RR to be updated when the styles changed.

[pbug56]

I'd never heard that before.  Easily explains the headlights and bumpers, that owners at the time might have preferred the flat bumpers and the changed headlights.  Funny thing - I prefer the pipe and drum styles.  It also explains why someone told me that there was no way our car had the lights and bumpers it had.

 

Also interesting that some of the cars had the canework on all 4 doors, most apparently either no canework or just farther back.  And different lights.  I'm beginning to think that every one of these was a bit different.

[prewarnut]

This is from Coachbuild; it seems to have the elements of your car.