Any Chance This is a "Real" V12 Roadster?

[Guest]

Besides the missing golf club door, and body moldings, etc. any chance this car is NOT home made? Owner couldn't/wouldn't answer basic questions such as engine number so I could order a build sheet. Says there is a body tag but doesn't know what's on it at the moment.  These cars always have issues of this sort. But......IZ gots to know.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1931-Cadillac-V-12-convertible/222528636369?_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160727114228%26meid%3Dd550bda38b3d48dbb2fea5a646202d18%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D222528636369

[Guest]

Interesting car for sure.  However, for 100K one would think they could fire it up, pull it out of the garage for some nice photos and at least blow the dust off it.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[Guest Turismo]

With the seller avoiding basic questions and the mediocre presentation of an eBay listing, personally I would steer away.

13 minutes ago, GregLaR said:

Interesting car for sure.  However, for 100K one would think they could fire it up, pull it out of the garage for some nice photos and at least blow the dust off it.

Also, this.

[edinmass]

The photos speak for themselves. Boham & Schwartz never built anything that wasn't stylish and tasteful. Look at the windshield and the lines on the car. Caveat Emptor! 

[TheMoneyPit]

With the number of body tags held on with sheet metal screws I would be very cautious about that car. It alone speaks to being a poor "restoration"

[Guest BillP]

Interesting background on Bohman & Schwartz

 

http://www.coachbuild.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=50&g2_itemId=42797

[F&J]

22 minutes ago, TheMoneyPit said:

With the number of body tags held on with sheet metal screws I would be very cautious about that car. It alone speaks to being a poor "restoration"

 

 

Totally not factual on that largest tag; the "Cadillac Division" plate of that era... They certainty were originally attached with 4 slotted screws.  Those screws seem non authentic in head size, but that is easily corrected.

 

A "custom" non-Fleetwood body builder tag would be "not-Cadillac factory" installed, as you know, but would then vary per builder. Fleetwood "non custom" bodies from the Cadillac assembly line plants; those "stock from factory-as delivered " tags were riveted.

[alsancle]

This tells you everything you need to know: "Bowman & Schwarts Body  (cannot authenticate)"

[F&J]

7 minutes ago, alsancle said:

This tells you everything you need to know: "Bowman & Schwarts Body  (cannot authenticate)"

 

Can I assume that your post translates TO:

 

"a seller of a $95k car, WOULD have taken the time to research and authenticate the car through possibly? Cadillac records" ??

 

...if yes, then I'd have to agree, but only "if" those records "do" exist.

[alsancle]

Frank,  if you own a coach built car then there is a very high probability  there is a paper trail and period pictures of some sort.  Maybe not the build sheet or anything like that, but period references or pictures as well as club stuff going back 60 years.  And not to be an old fuddy dud, but the spelling mistake bothers me.

[auburnseeker]

The seller did answer someone's question that it can be a matching numbers car as the original engine is included but not in it at the moment.  That would authenticate it being a 12Cyl car.   I agree though that when selling a 100,000  car a little effort would be expected in presentation.

[F&J]

Just now, alsancle said:

if you own a coach built car then there is a very high probability  there is a paper trail

Thanks for that fact that certainly applies to what I said about the erson selling a 95k car "should have taken the time"

 

As you know, I often think and talk too much, but I'd like to add something on this particular car for sale:

 

we, the car people, are in so many different categories.

 

  Some want total authenticated cars, some want it as potential investment if you will, like a car that has a 100% proven track record of never dropping a penny, even in the most tragic financial events in the past...such as a Gull Wing Mercedes.

 

some want a car that looks and behaves just like an authenticated car, and just plain "loves" the car in question here, and it matters not, if the car cannot be authenticated.

 

We are looking at a 95k price here; most potential buyers that might be on the current Ebay watch list total of 45+ with still 5 days to go, might be able to toss around 95 on a whim, and I honestly don't see a problem in my mind, of spending 95 on THAT car, IF I just plain liked it.  Is that price "way out of the norm for a V12 open Cadillac", if you simply don't care about pedigree?  Meaning that some few well funded car-LOVERS don't really care if his group of car friends want paper...he simply loves that car as presented, and the "money" is not even a consideration.  "Money" is merely "just pieces of paper, or digits on an account balance" to well funded people who love cars.

 

 

 

.

[60FlatTop]

14 minutes ago, F&J said:

some few well funded car-LOVERS don't really care

 

As I read through the posts my thoughts were heading in that direction. If a guy likes it buy it. The car will be picked apart on every outing.

 

And discussions of those custom body builders names make me smile. I have chased wires and serviced components between the layer of glossy paint and the fine leather hides. No pun on the "hides", but the lead that oozed out from overlapped seams and the sparing use of wood scraps only a true carpenter knows how to assemble is disappointing. The workmanship post restoration has to be a vast improvement over the original on most custom cars.

 

Then, again, being a 1931 it could be a very early B&S car. And it is a roadster. What would the priorities of a roadster be compared to a formal sedan buyer. Maybe Schwartz sat at his desk and said "Hurry up on the Caddy and get it done. I'm tried of that nut case coming in to check on it. And tell his crazy buddy to take his twenty grand to those guys in Indiana. That's far enough away."

 

Bernie

[Guest]

4 hours ago, BillP said:

Interesting background on Bohman & Schwartz

 

http://www.coachbuild.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=50&g2_itemId=42797

Good info on these partners. I'm curious, the article states their newer business address, post WWII in Pasadena and an even later address up to 1951. Any idea where their original shop was located?

[46 woodie]

As "money pit" states, be very careful of those body tags remounted with sheet metal screws. There was an episode of Chasing Classic Cars, with Wayne Carini, at the Greenwich Concours and the State Police had issues with every car that did not have original rivets. Many states require a trooper or other official inspect an antique car before a registration is issued and will not OK it if the body ID is screwed or pop riveted on. I know it is common practice by some body shops to remove the tag for paint but the correct rivets should be used. 

[F&J]

30 minutes ago, 46 woodie said:

As "money pit" states, be very careful of those body tags remounted with sheet metal screws.

 

 

...reading is ...um...er,,,fundamental ;;

 

See my post on the tags on Cadillac cars of that era...it explains that screws WERE used on the "Cad Division" tag.

 

Here is the only pic I have stored right now.  It is a 34 Conv.  The Cad tag is screwed on.  The "standard equipment" (not custom), body was built at the Fleetwood plant, where the Fleetwood tag and body style number is riveted by them, then shipped to the Cad assembly line plant.

 

Hard to see but this Cad tag, as well as 3 other "Cad" cars here of same age, are identical in fasteners.  In my pic, look above the Cad tag to see the barely visible remains of the rotted away aluminum Fleetwood tag, and you should be able to see it has rivets, not screws like the Cad tag below it.

[edinmass]

The only thing on that """"1931 Cadillac V-12 Roadster"""" that will be properly screwed  is the new owner. Ok, I said it, just couldn't help myself. Lots of people PM me on the car. Too many in my opinion. Where I come from, it's a parts car. Hope who ever buys it gets some help before the check is written. Too many new guys get burned bad. Ed

Edited May 31, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

If a guy has a hundred thousand in discretionary money to buy the car he will be happy with it. And he was smart enough to get the money.

 

I drive alone most of the time. And I have a nice pneumatic draftsman's chair in the garage where I just sit and enjoy looking at my stuff. ONE comfortable and inviting chair. The other chairs, not so inviting.

 

Bernie

[Guest]

5 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

The seller did answer someone's question that it can be a matching numbers car as the original engine is included but not in it at the moment.  That would authenticate it being a 12Cyl car.   I agree though that when selling a 100,000  car a little effort would be expected in presentation.

The build sheets are available from gmheritagecenter.com for $50 using the engine number. Very high probability that both engines would show as leaving the factory in sedans.

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The only thing on that """"1931 Cadillac V-12 Roadster"""" that will be properly screwed  is the new owner. Ok, I said it, just couldn't help myself. Lots of people PM me on the car. Too many in my opinion. Where I come from, it's a parts car. Hope who ever buys it gets some help before the check is written. Too many new guys get burned bad. Ed

Too bad my '31 V8 convertible coupe (134" wb)  is not a '30 V8 model ( 140" wb) I'd be real interested in this parts car ( V12's were also 140") to turn a V8 CCP into a V12 CCP. I expect that's what will eventually happen to it - an owner of a 1930 V8 coupe/convertible or roadster will buy it, although even that buyer would rather find a V16 chassis to do the same swap with.

[edinmass]

31 Caddy, once you build a fake in the hobby NOBODY will ever trust any of your cars real or not. It's easier, cheaper, and more rewarding to take your time and acquire the real thing. Exact replicas are ok as long as advertised as new coachwork. You only have a good reputation in this hobby once, and you can NEVER recover it.   

[Joe in Canada]

You can buy custom made body tags but not vin tags for the fire wall that would match the car. Any guess why he has all the tags except the factory vin tag that was factory riveted on.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, edinmass said:

31 Caddy, once you build a fake in the hobby NOBODY will ever trust any of your cars real or not. It's easier, cheaper, and more rewarding to take your time and acquire the real thing. Exact replicas are ok as long as advertised as new coachwork. You only have a good reputation in this hobby once, and you can NEVER recover it.   

Please save your sanctimonius lecture for someone else. Why did you automatically assume that if I built a re bodied car, that I would not honestly disclose what it is? There are numerous re bodied cars out there. There are more V16 roadsters now than were originally built, and everyone knows which ones they are. In any case, any buyer can order the build sheet and find out what body style a particular engine left the factory with.The value of a re bodied (and fully disclosed as such) V12 CCP would be more than a V8 car in the same condition, but less than the genuine article.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

You can buy custom made body tags but not vin tags for the fire wall that would match the car. Any guess why he has all the tags except the factory vin tag that was factory riveted on.

Joe, I'm not sure which tag you are referring to, when you mention VIN tag riveted to the firewall on a 31 Cadillac. I did see the tag with the VIN ( engine) number screwed to the firewall of the subject car. To me that just makes the subject car more suspect, unless that tag was required at some point by a state DMV for some reason. From the factory, there was no "VIN tag" on a '31 Cadillac. The engine number stamped on the engine case was the VIN as you know, but no factory firewall VIN tag was used, just the body tag as you mentioned.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I'm not trying to lecture,  but for me personally, I would much rather have a real V8 car than a made up V12 or V16.  The authenticity is important to me, but of course that is just me.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I'm not trying to lecture,  but for me personally, I would much rather have a real V8 car than a made up V12 or V16.  The authenticity is important to me, but of course that is just me.

 

I don't disagree at all. It is a moot point anyway with my current car, as the chassis lengths are different. if I had say a '30 coupe that needed a complete restoration, and a running V12 car similar to the subject one came along at about 1/2 of what he is asking, it's a project I would consider. It's all hypothetical anyway, but I've always got my eyes open for '30 -'31 project type cars, and like to consider the possibilities.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Some interesting posts on here. This is a different sandbox than I am used to playing in. But many of the comments are very similar to what we get in the model T stuff (believe it or not). How right or wrong a car is, does matter! This is especially true with brass era model Ts, and CCCA classics (probably also muscle cars, but I don't pay hardly any attention to them).

I, and a few others, often get ripped on the model T forums for being harsh and picking apart cars listed on eBad for being incorrect. But, the fact is, we don't like to see newcomers get taken for a bunch of money on cars that are more wrong than right. Sadly, most of those newcomers won't see threads like this discussing the realities of such a car that they are considering. 

I do find it interesting to see some of the same comments (some, almost verbatim). Things like "a fun car", "I like driving by myself", "--- at the right price", basically that if you like it and can afford it, enjoy it! But all too often, people that really can't afford to throw away a few tens of thousands of dollars get caught up in the dream, only to find out that the car they paid two to three times what it was really worth doesn't even qualify for the club or tours they would want it for.

Although I have not been a member of it for many years, I know the CCCA is a bit picky about their qualifications, for good reasons and as they should be. The HCCA is also that way, and I often speak out that they should NOT loosen those rules. Although I left the CCCA before they made the big changes some years back, I was saddened when I heard of some of those changes. Some of them? Maybe that had to happen, but not as much I think as they did.

In reference to many antique cars and parts, I have often used the phrase "I would rather have a wrinkled original than a flawless copy". I think that fits with a car like this Cadillac. I do like for cars to be resurrected so that they may be seen, heard, and experienced again. Sometimes that means overlooking some flaws in details or facts. But I think that an effort should be made to replicate a real car whenever possible. And definitely, resurrecting from some remaining original pieces should be a major goal.

[edinmass]

31Caddy, nowhere in my post did I imply that deceit was or would be involved with any car you have or may own. (I'm sorry you took it that way.) My point was once a collector has a car in his collection that has provenance issues, his entire stable of cars will forever be tainted. Fact is many of the rebodied cars are not presented as such, and many people here have witnessed new owners finding out that have a car that isn't what it was represented to be. Another current  poster on this site had family members custom CCCA cars numbers stamped on another "fake" car to represent it as a genuine one. My Dual Cowl was also attempted to be hijacked with its numbers. It wasn't a pleasant experience. As far as all the Caddy 16 roadsters  being  easy to identify, I disagree. Having just purchased one in the last year, and having more than forty years of experience with early thirties Cadillac's I can assure you it isn't easy to keep them all sorted. A very nice rebody sold in the last 24 months for 300k at auction, and several correct cars recently brought well into seven figures. With numbers like that problems quickly arise. Recently at a world class car show, Someone asked why a particular car was on the field. The show does not allow rebodied/new coachwork or modified cars to be displayed. Neither the owner or committee was familiar with the car and its history. (Sedan cut into a Roadster, on a car that one would not expect.) The car was quietly left on the field (which now adds legitimacy to it) , and was bought back by the dealer/seller very quietly.  The stories are endless with people being taken advantage of. And....... it's not just newcomers getting deceived, recently several multi million dollar cars have ended up in litigation with longtime collectors. 

 

In today's car collecting market, provanance is everything. Without rock solid photos and documentation it's very difficult to sell a car at its full potential price. Look at the auction descriptions today, they list all known owners back to new with dates whenever possible.  Just look at prices of the big HCCA and CCCA cars at auction with no history before 1970. Many people won't touch them with a ten foot pole and the price reflects the history. As a very young collector in the early 80's I bought a great open car, but it wasn't a basket case, it was almost a terrible basket case as half the car was missing, maybe more. The only reason I bought it was so I could say I had owned one. It was left in the corner of my dads barn for years. One day a visitor stopped by and ended up buying it. Its now restored to 100 points. It's passed through several hands now, and I have never asked the current owners if they know it's history. In today's market the project would have never even been attempted. It came out quite nice, and I often see photos of it posted on the net.

[F&J]

3 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

I do find it interesting to see some of the same comments (some, almost verbatim). Things like "a fun car", "I like driving by myself", "--- at the right price", basically that if you like it and can afford it, enjoy it! But all too often, people that really can't afford to throw away a few tens of thousands of dollars get caught up in the dream, only to find out that the car they paid two to three times what it was really worth doesn't even qualify for the club or tours they would want it for.

Sheldon, I'm not picking apart your post with ANY intent to flame your mindset or to cause you to be angry to me, trust in that please!

 

..and ED just posted before I could submit mine... see his clearly stated, and well understood stand he takes.  It is his reason to value the car for his needs of "fun", but not mine: "QUOTE ...In today's car collecting market, provanance is everything." end Quote.

 

 

I really became lost in this long running thread, and I knew I'd not make any further comments until reading more here this AM...

 

firstly, please believe me when I say that I find absolutely NOTHING wrong with a person who "demands" certification, and 100% authenticity of "their own cars", or monetary value, to make themselves "happy".  Happy is the key word in my long post here, it is different for all of us in different mindsets, yet I know I will anger some who miss that feeling I have for YOU all, and your own personal requirements.

 

I wanted to be "off" the main discussion form on AACA, for good, as I just apparently "don't fit in" with "some" of the mindsets....AND I did not want my further comments to be mistaken as insults to anyone who has posted. 

 

I just am/was floored, by hearing that the subject car is a "parts car"  WTH? ...and "run both engines numbers to see they came from sedans"....... a nice old Former Race Horse that once ran the Preakness, but now was just known to be not a certified Thoroughbred, so it automatically needs to go to the glue factory,... even though the are people who would not only give it a great loving home, but would even actually pay good money for it?  Where the hell did the root "hobby angle possibility" (Fun- AKA enjoyment) go with this car?  Our Hobby "enjoyment" is not from just one certain set of rules, IMO.

 

Meaning, that if the car has great enjoyment potential for some, why is it put in some "box" by some group of folks that only speak of monetary value, with provenance, and not thinking of other types of enjoyment......, and seem to play the card that a new owner of it, as "monetarily" poor or "ignorant" of some "documentation requirement" that honestly means nothing to a true "fun-only" hobbyist.  You guys spout cars, but in my own mindset only, you lack the true "spirit" of the differing fun part of the hobby AND the true possibilities that particular car!

 

  hey, if nobody wants that old sway backed horse with no paper....please oh please, lord...send it my way....I sure have never ever been behind the wheel of a/the much fabled Mighty V12 CADILLAC !     And,  I can't be bothered lookin at no dam pedigree papers whilst I'm driving that old sexy old gal.    lol.

[Restorer32]

We happen to have a well restored '31 V-12 Roadster in the shop for some minor work. After comparing the two cars I suspect the red car was either a coupe or possibly a convertible coupe. Notice how the body line stops awkwardly at the rear edge of the door rather than continuing around the body as on the factory Roadster?

[poci1957]

6 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Some interesting posts on here.....many of the comments are very similar to what we get in the model T stuff (believe it or not). How right or wrong a car is, does matter! This is especially true with brass era model Ts, and CCCA classics (probably also muscle cars, but I don't pay hardly any attention to them).

 

.....the fact is, we don't like to see newcomers get taken for a bunch of money on cars that are more wrong than right. Sadly, most of those newcomers won't see threads like this discussing the realities of such a car that they are considering. 

 

Regarding Wayne’s point above, what do we all think is passing for “due diligence” for newcomers on potential purchases like this one these days?  It looks like inexperienced hobbyists are less likely to seek advice to identify fakes or problems just when they should be more concerned.  Is anyone else seeing this? 

 

For example, if one were newly interested in a car like this Cadillac a first move before buying was always to join the CCCA and/or Cadillac LaSalle club and do some research in advance before pulling the trigger.  Look at lots of cars, go to national shows, maybe contact a technical advisor or other marque “expert” for tips.  Is this happening less than it used to?  It looks to me like rather than bother joining a club people just get their knowledge base from TV then maybe post a question here or on Facebook and take the advice that matches what they want to hear, dismissing what they don’t.    

 

Rather like modern politics, now that I see it in writing.  What do others think? 

 

[mike6024]

This listing has ended. Ended: Jun 01, 2017 , 7:01AM  Sold for:US $95,000.00

 

IF that's true it's pretty good for a parts car.

Edited June 1, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[Guest SaddleRider]

9 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

..........., I know the CCCA is a bit picky about their qualifications,...... Although I left the CCCA before they made the big changes some years back,....

 

I cant imagine why anyone with an interest in automotive history would want to leave the CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA.  Nor am I clear as to why our group would be called "picky about our qualifications".    

 

It is not unusual in today's auto hobby climate to have a lack of understanding as to what the CLASSIC CAR CLUB  OF AMERICA is all about.  There was a time not long ago when old cars in general, and the big elegant super luxury cars of the 20's and 30's in particular,  were of no interest to the general public.   In those days, the few of us who felt these cars were something to be admired and worth saving,  came up with the word "classic" in our effort to separate what we felt were quite different from the ordinary car of ANY era. 

 

So much has changed down thru the years - even word use !  In those days,  the word "classic" was not in common use.  It was, in those days, of VERY limited meaning, (referring to a Websters of that era) ..."something unique, of first rank, representing the highest standard of excellence".    A  "school of design" in which "form follows function",   I.e. a headlight, a fender,  a grill, a hood, each had a shape apart, defined by what its function is.  So it was logical to us that a early thirties Cadillac V-16 would fall in that category,  but an ordinary streamlined 8 cyl. Cadillac of later years would not.

 

Our judging reflects how far out of date we are from the current old car scene.    Reduced to its essentials, each car submitted for CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA judging is only in competition with ITSELF, as IT was when first in service as a new car. 

 

It was only relatively recently that we stopped taking points off for over-chroming,  or the use of chrome where there had once been nickel.    Clearly, we are quite different in our respect for historical accuracy, than a modern public car show, were people who have paid good money to get in, have a right to be entertained by competition between spectacular-looking cars.I   It is perfectly logical that all classic cars in any class at our events could be 100 point cars,  and thus no "winners", assuming each accurately reflected its condition when in service as a new car.

 

Our judging rules are clear - points are not to be taken off for mere signs of use (quote from our current rules)   "in judging, keep in mind these cars were built to be used, and the mere fact of useage should not in itself cause hardship in judging"

 

I respectfully  suggest we are not being "picky" in our focus on real history.    As the general public started to "catch on" that maybe we in the CCCA were "on to something",  more and more people started throwing the word "classic" around, caring little for what it actually means.  Or meant - hard to find a product in an auto parts magazine or even grocery store these days that isn't called "classic"....!

 

So yes - we do not accept cars that started out in life as elegant sedans or limos, but were cut apart to make into an open car.  That isn't a respect for history.   And no, at our events we have no provision for caring what the general public thinks about which car is the flashiest! 

 

So yes - the CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA is "different" - I suggest that "difference" is a valuable asset to respecting real world history !  All how find that a worthwhile objective are welcome,  whether or not you actually own what we feel is a classic car !

[Restorer32]

Welcome back Pete.

[F&J]

1 hour ago, SaddleRider said:

  "in judging, keep in mind these cars were built to be used, and the mere fact of useage should not in itself cause hardship in judging"

I like that A LOT  ^^^^

[Guest SaddleRider]

4 hours ago, F&J said:

I like that A LOT  ^^^^

 

Your post makes it appear I was the one who said that !  Don't blame me - I was merely quoting from the CCCA Rule Book. !

[wayne sheldon]

F&J, For the most part, I would say you and I are of much the same mindset. My main observation was that we often discuss cars on the MTFCA forum, and get comments similar to ones posted by several other people on page one of this thread. We discuss them usually as an information sharing exercise, and a learning tool to point out the many subtle changes that occurred during model T production. Ebay, especially the really badly done dealer listings, offer a good platform for those discussions. When the dealers brag about the quality and correctness of their "excellent example" that should become a part of "any fine collection", when in fact the car is a complete fake, pretty much deserves any abuse they get. Way too often, the only thing their listed car is a good example of is fraud.

And again, our purpose in discussing such cars is NOT to abuse the car, the dealer, or a potential buyer. The primary purpose is to point out WHY a given car is not what it is purported to be. And that there were many detail changes over the years, and that those details matter as a point of history.

I often mention that when I got into this hobby (way back in the late '60s), there was an incredible amount of information that was simply NOT known. People BELIEVED that Ford made all the parts in house for the model T (wrong). They were aware that there were several variations on things like the rear end, but had no idea why or when which ones were used. After 45 years of playing with these silly things? I still don't consider myself an expert. I still have more doubts and questions than I do answers.

 

SaddleRider, My apologies if you think I was disrespecting the CCCA. I have a great deal of respect for them, and their special place in the hobby. When I was getting into this hobby so many years ago, I did what I have often recommended other people should do. I joined a whole bunch of national clubs, read the magazines (still have most of them), and joined a few local clubs also. For a few years, I tried to learn as much of the basics of the hobby as I could. I found that my own preference leaned toward earlier cars. I could not afford to keep a membership going in all the clubs, especially ones that I was not likely to have a qualifying car for. At that time, I let the CCCA go. Many of my long-time best friends are members of the CCCA, and I have been to a few meets where they were showing cars. I have been with the HCCA for many years, and believe they also should maintain a strict standard for the special cars that they represent. The hobby should be about the cars, and the history that they represent. I truly believe that the HCCA and the CCCA are the two best national clubs in the hobby (at least for our part of the globe). Absolutely no disrespect intended for the AACA, who provides this excellent forum and acts as a beacon for antique automobiles of all types (Thank you!).

Also, I am totally with you on the sedan/roadster thing. Sadly, I have seen a few nice sedans that were chopped up to make a more desirable roadster or phaeton. This is something that I just cannot understand. There are still many full classic chassis rotting behind garages that could be resurrected into a desired car. How could ANYBODY that claims to appreciate the history or artistry of a wonderful car remove a perfectly good original body and trash it just as a matter of expedient re-creation. If one wants to re-create the dream car that they cannot afford? They should get one of those naked rusty chassis to do so.

Personally, I like sedans and coupes a lot. But, then I like them all.

 

poci1957, I don't dare comment too much on some of what you brought up. I would likely wander off into a long rant (me? long winded?) on the modern state of politics and where we are likely headed as a society. "Due diligence" may still exist in the law books. Right next to the passage that it is illegal to tie your alligator onto a parking meter. However, people generally are no longer taught personal responsibility. (Okay, I have wandered far enough already.)

 

SaddleRider (again), My impression is that you are an excellent ambassador for the CCCA! I do remember reading some of those rules in the guide 45 years ago. I liked that then, and like it now.

[F&J]

2 hours ago, SaddleRider said:

 

Your post makes it appear I was the one who said that !  Don't blame me - I was merely quoting from the CCCA Rule Book. !

 Makes no matter where it came from... I just never knew that rule of/about the "oft called, closed minded club",....That rule displayed in print here by you, then destroys predetermined common opinions that are then passed on to others... and then that situation propagates

 

 

34 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:

They were aware that there were several variations on things like the rear end, but had no idea why or when which ones were used.

My 70 yr old friend Joe, recently showed me a bunch of rusty T casrcasses he "saved" from the crusher, and went though a lot of ID stuff I never knew before,.... so I do get the "informative guys positions" well

[motoringicons]

If someone is looking for an original, V-12 roadster, I may be able to help you....

Edited June 2, 2017 by motoringicons (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Great car. Interesting, a rear spare car. Looks like a very nice project.