My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

[stretch cab]

I come to this site almost daily in hopes of an update.  While I do not understand most of what I see or read, and am in awe of such ability, I am also motivated to work on my own projects.  I know that I will never match up to such skill levels but I also know that with the help of this Forum and others I can get my car finished and eventually drive it.  Your work inspires me!

[JV Puleo]

2 hours ago, Luv2Wrench said:

The saying "standing on the shoulder of giants" comes to mind... and sometimes we forget just how tall the giants we stand on are. 

 

When I read some of the books on milling, lathe  & shaper work often I only understand a small part of it. The collective effort that went into designing machines that we largely take for granted is really quite humbling. The notion that you need computers to do this sort of thing is not only rubbish, it's borderline insulting to the legions of mechanics and machinists who have done astonishing things as part of an ordinary days work...

[alsfarms]

Amen to that line of thoughts....

Al

[JV Puleo]

Last night I did a quick drawing of my proposed numbering jig and today I started on it. It will be made from these 3 pieces of scrap...the large block is the piece I cut off the engraving tool.

 

 

The first piece gets a 1" x 1" step milled.

 

 

The top piece got trimmed (I have to work around the holes that are already in the piece of aluminum)

 

 

And a similar step 3/8" x 1" this time.

 

 

Then I milled a V groove in the first piece. I had intended to use a shallower angle but I couldn't set the head over enough to do that. Also, I'm not certain I got the angle in exactly the middle.

 

 

Then I trimmed off the top edges to give it a more finished look.

 

 

This is how it is supposed to work...

 

 

Then I set up the back piece to turn the three holes in it into a slot.

 

 

So now it's roughed out. I have one more slot to mill, then assembly. In fact, the V groove didn't line up perfectly but its not a problem. In fact, I can assemble it so that it is in perfect alignment and then mill it square so no one will ever know...unless they read this thread!

 

 

I am going to use the hydraulic press to put the number in and don't want to damage the lines on the dial, hence using aluminum - which I'd probably do in any case because it's easy to work and fine for a "once in a great while" specialized tool.

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

Joe, are you sure that when you start pressing the numbers into the dial that the V-groove in the support block won't mark your dial?  Is there a way to spread the load, like milling off the edges of the V groove to the same radius as the dial? Also, maybe flip the dial 180 degrees and make a scratch mark in the back block, say five ticks off, so you can exactly line up your carefully engraved marks to make the numbers evenly spaced.  

 

Aren't you glad you have a bunch of people looking over your shoulder as you work?😈

[JV Puleo]

I don't think the aluminum will do much, if anything to the dial but perhaps I will put a slot across the V where the lines are. Also, the numbers will upset the surface so it will have to go back in the lathe where I'll use a fine file to gently flatten them and then re-polish it. I did think of making a radiused lower block but I wanted this tool be applicable to other dials, maybe not of exactly the same diameter. Lining up the numbers is another challenge I've thought of - it's difficult to explain so you'll have to see what I'm intending to do. With any luck, that will come tomorrow.

 

I've no problem with people looking over my shoulder...often enough they make some good suggestions. My late father was no car person at all but several times, when I was wrestling with a problem, he'd make a really good suggestion. He didn't know what he was looking at but sometimes that is exactly what it takes to see something that that is invisible to the person who does know what they are dealing with.

 

An ongoing problem with the authors I deal with - myself included - is that when you know a subject it is extremely easy to presume others know what you are talking about. That often isn't the case. You have to be very careful explaining things to the uninitiated - a lesson about 99.9% of the "computer geeks" ought to learn.

Edited October 30, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Mike Macartney]

7 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

 . . . . it is extremely easy to presume others know what you are talking about. That often isn't the case. You have to be very careful explaining things to the uninitiated - a lesson about 99.9% of the "computer geeks" ought to learn.

 

Even with instructions, when it says "do this", they never seem to tell you why you should "do this" which I find is important in many instances.

 

With regards to the 'rest' for the dial to sit in, while you 'press' the numbers in. I think I would be much better to have curve machined in the block, rather than a vee for the dial to sit in, so as to spread the load. Joe, you don't want to spoil the magnificent work you have achieved so far for a little more machining.

[JV Puleo]

A good example is something like "press the X key" when there is no key labeled "X". You are supposed to know that it's the return or the Z or whatever. Almost every time I try to follow computer directions I run into a stone wall like that...

[JV Puleo]

Another idea...I think I will add a layer of fish paper - the stuff fiber washers are made of - between the V block and the dial. It's hard enough to take the pressure but certainly won't mar the surface.

 

Or...and this is better, an aluminum ring around the dial that will center in V block and bend to the profile of the dial.

Edited October 30, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

While mulling over those issues I continued, first cutting a 7/8" slot in the top piece. This was done without changing the location of the table (I just changed the end mills) so this slot and the one in the back of the piece should be aligned correctly.

 

 

Then I drilled and tapped the projecting arms.

 

 

 

These will hold this block...7/8" square with a 1/4" square hole in it. I made this as a fixture some time ago and then made a better one so I just had it on hand.

 

 

Then I super glued the two pieces together. This is just to hold them while I drill a connecting hole. The super glue didn't survive the tapping but lasted just long enough to get the thread started so it was successful.

 

 

I was able to connect those two pieces so I moved on to the base. This is a little trickier because they aren't in perfect alignment but it is much more important that the V block be aligned with the slot in the back and the square block with the 1/4" hole than  it is that it look correct...besides, I'll probably mill the sides a little bit to eliminate the overhand.

 

 

I wanted to give the glue a little longer to set up so I came up to the office to post this...when I finish my coffee I'll go back to the shop.

[JV Puleo]

My regular Sunday job got cancelled because it was raining (of course, the sun came out an hour later) so I came in to finish the numbering tool. The bottom end went on fine though again, the super glue held for just drilling the first hole. That was enough however.

 

 

Then I put it in the mill and took .050 off each side. It wasn't necessary but I like the "finished" look even if it is only a tool.

 

 

This is pretty much done now. I still have to modify the number stamps a little to fit in the square hole and I'm waiting on a couple of bits I'd like to use it but it is now getting very close to trying it out.

 

 

[JV Puleo]

I'm working down my list of the little things left to do...First, the number stamps. I have this antique set of numbers in a serif face. To my mind they are much nicer than the conventional modern numbers but, unfortunately, they are about .040 too large to go into the fixture.

 

 

So I put them on the surface grinder and ground them to 1/4" square.

 

 

Than I drilled & tapped the ball crank for 1/4-20 set screws. It never had them but I'm thinking it might be nice to be able to secure it.

 

 

 

Then I put in the seat for the Woodruff key. I used the small dividing head to hold it parallel with the mill table.

 

 

I made an error here and didn't cut the seat deep enough for the keys I have so I ground one to fit.

 

 

I also marked up the face of the dial with lines that coincide with the numbers...

 

 

The last three things I need, a bolt, a bushing and special paint for filling the engraved lines are supposed to arrive tomorrow but I suspect I won't get them until the end of the day so I'll go back to the problem of a saddle to hold the dial while I press the numbers.

[JV Puleo]

I took the suggestions made here to heart and decided to make a saddle for the dial to sit in and, since I'm still waiting on three little things, I had the time. I started with a 4" x 4-1/2" x1" block of aluminum.

 

 

Bored out to fit the dial...which, since I had to turn it down 4 times, now measures 2.913

 

 

Then I cut it in half.

 

 

I milled the tops to get it square.

 

 

And the bottom so that it would fit in the fixture.

 

 

All set up. The remaining pieces came in at the end of the day so tomorrow we get to see if this works.

 

[Mike Macartney]

Joe, that has spread the load nicely. Mike

[JV Puleo]

We'll know in an hour or two how it works but 'm pretty confident it will be ok.

 

j

Edited November 3, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I started this morning with the numbers, using the hydraulic press to put them in.

 

 

They came out OK...not perfect but perfectly usable. I confess that having been a typographer for the past 40 years makes me pretty fussy about letters and numbers.

 

 

Then I pressed it onto a mandrel and cut a relief more or less in the center.

 

 

I took a very light cut off the end to true it up and then knurled it.

 

 

Then into the press to get a bushing.

 

 

I then located the hole for the knurled screw that locks it.

 

 

It's drilled #7 for a 1/4-20 screw but I also counterbored it larger so I would not have to thread such a deep hole. It's not needed and you run the risk of breaking the tap.

 

 

The dial is done so I started assembling the parts.

 

 

There was some fitting required...this washer had to have it's thickness reduced and there were several other things that needed minor attention.

 

 

The most significant of which was the nut. I had to take a few thousandths off the top end.

 

 

But, in all, it went together pretty well.

 

 

It took another hour to fit it to the machine. There are some issues I will address eventually but for a first try at something like this I think it's fine. I'll test it tomorrow but I can't see why there should be any problems.

 

 

The best thing is that it doesn't interfere with anything else. There is virtually no backlash in the lead screw now and the divisions on the dial are large enough that I can easily hit .0005.

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

Fantastic work Joe!

 

Love it!

 

T

[M1842]

Wow, just wow!

[nickelroadster]

Exceptional job!  I must confess to a streak of jealousy.

[edinmass]

I wish I had twenty percent of the talent working with machine tools that it took to make that. I would settle for ten percent.

[Mike Macartney]

Just brilliant Joe. When you mentioned earlier about the numbers I wondered how you were going to do it. I would never have thought about using the press.

[JV Puleo]

I confess to that not being an original thought on my part. There is a gentleman on the Practical Machinist forum that goes by "Doc's Machine" who did a fantastic rebuild on a lathe over a period of several years taking a pile of scrap metal and turning it into a machine that is probably better than it was new. I am nowhere near that good but his thread provided me with both some good ideas and lots of inspiration.

Edited November 4, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I don't have much to report today. I tested the new dial and, so far, it seems fine although, as is always the case with me, I thought of some tweaks and improvements. I'll use it the way it is but having gone this far I can't see why I shouldn't try to make it even better. Most of my day was taken up with a housekeeping chore for my friend that owns the building - something I'd put off while I worked on the lathe. Nevertheless, I did get the hubs out and tomorrow I'll go back to those.

 

 

You'll remember I made four aluminum plugs to center the hugs on the mill. I made an error on one of them and it is just a shade too loose. With the lathe back in operation, I thought of a repair so I think I'll do that first.

[JV Puleo]

I'm back to this project having finished a few odds & ends that needed attention and being stuck at home for three days because my truck broke down. Thankfully, that's all fixed now.

 

I started this repair by facing off another piece of aluminum.

 

 

Then putting a 2" hole in the center.

 

 

I turned the original piece down a bit, then a 2" projection on one end and pressed it together. Then I bolted the two pieces together with flat-head cap screws sunk below the surface.

 

 

I put it back in the lathe and faced this off again.

 

 

Then turned the OD to fit the hub.

 

 

Unfortunately, the holes in the hubs aren't exactly the same and one of them isn't even perfectly round (it's off by about .002) so I have to work with the smallest dimension. These are part of the setup to repair the damaged bolt holes in the hub so, while they have to be accurate, being a few thousandths off isn't important. I doubt it will make much difference if the hubs run out .005 and it certainly won't make a difference to a 37" diameter tire.

 

 

Now I can set these up in the mill...

[chistech]

I had typed the below up and forgot to hit post! It was sitting in my que. 
 

Joe, I’m up to a case of beer a day and two packs of cigarettes waiting for your next post. Is all well?

[JV Puleo]

Yes...I had some housekeeping chores at the shop to attend to and the "throttle body" on the Blazer quit. It had been getting worse for the last month and the fellow I usually take it to (it's much too modern for me) said he'd order the needed part. He forgot, so eventually I had to get the part by which time it quit working altogether. I barely got home on Friday evening and, since the garage isn't open on the weekend, I found myself stuck at home for 3 days. He installed it for me on Monday but, by then, the day was shot.

Edited November 13, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

With the lathe operating again and the centering plugs made, I can go back to the hubs. The piece in the center is 1-1/2" in diameter as is the hole in the plug. This is to get the hub centered on the rotary table. It is not absolutely "perfect" but this operation doesn't call for that.

 

 

The hubs will get sleeves pressed in to hold the new bearings. The original bearing races protruded slightly past the inside lip on the hub which made it possible to get them out since you could use a puller or, more commonly, a drift on the inside edge. The new bearing races will come too close to the edge which means that if I (or someone else in the future) has to get them out there will be a real problem. To address this, I want to mill three half-round notches in the lip. The bearing cup will still bottom on the lip but it will be possible to remove them easily if needed.

 

 

I centered the rotary table on the spindle...

 

 

Fortunately, there are six holes in the hubs and six slots in the table. Unfortunately, this is a Japanese rotary table ($75 on Craig's List) and the T-nuts are metric so I had to run out and buy 3 more metric bolts. Having done that, I bolted the hub to the rotary table.

 

 

Now I need to find an appropriate, sharp end mill....

Edited November 13, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I was going to leave this for Monday but when I went back to the shop I thought - "what the heck...might as well try it." So, I picked out a long 7/8 end mill...

 

 

It looks as if I got the speeds just right because it milled perfectly.

 

 

So...I did the second one. I can't go further today because I need some long 10mm bolts to do the other end. I have some but they have to be shortened and for that I need a 10mm collet. I ordered one and it will arrive Monday so when it gets here I'll finish this stem.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[F&J]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

The new bearing races will come too close to the edge which means that if I (or someone else in the future) has to get them out there will be a real problem.

I agree that notches are best for race removal, but some random uses of races have no notches, or have no access to the back of the race...on cars, trucks, tools, misc equipment, etc.

 

On those races, most everybody just run a weld around/on the wear face of the race, and it will literally fall out. I know that you and some others don't have a welder, I am just mentioning in case somebody runs into a "blind race" and just might remember this tactic.

[JV Puleo]

Thanks Frank. I'm familiar with that technique but, as you know, I don't weld. I actually have a mig welder but I've never even tried to use it. It's one of those things I'll get to "someday." I've run into that business where there is now way to get them out. In fact, it's the case with the bearings in the front axle of this car although I was able to remove them but it was more due to luck than to skill. I haven't replaced them because I have an idea on how to fix the axle so that it will be easy in the future. Also, if you run a weld around the race it's permanently ruined and I can think of situations where you'd want to get it out and put it back — especially with really obsolete bearings or in a situation where it's in good shape but by removing it you can reach something else.

Edited November 13, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I've had one of my "difficult to get moving" Mondays but still made some progress on the hubs. The 10mm collet came in so I could go forward. As you can see, the metric bolts are about 1/2" too long.

 

 

Being as I am, I couldn't just saw the ends off. I shortened them in the lathe so that all 5 are the exact same length. I have a drawer full of 10mm bolts that I keep for setting things up on the rotary table so these will just go there until I need them for something else.

This holds the hug down tight and centers it on the rotary table, making the milling fairly easy.

 

 

That finished the rear hubs...

 

 

But I may as well do the front hubs as well. I modified 5 more bolts to hold that one down and milled the slots on the big end. Luckily, I was able to find more to do the small end but it's near the end of the day and if a mistake is going to be made, it will be now so I'll leave that for tomorrow. I also have to address the badly damaged holes in the hub (as you can see above on the right). The damaged front hub is worse.

 

[F&J]

15 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I also have to address the badly damaged holes in the hub (as you can see above on the right). The damaged front hub is worse.

I spotted the ovaled holes in one post earlier.  I'm not sure how I would go at that on thin cast iron.  Don't bother saying your plans right now, I prefer to wait for pics of it happening.  

 

I've never had a vertical mill, nor an index head to be able braze them up and then get them bored back on precise centers.

 

One regret decades past, I found some long square dark colored cast iron gas welding rods in an old repair garage that dated to the 19-teens.  One guy there told me what they were, and that he'd been there for decades and nobody ever used them.  I could have taken some, but didn't.

[JV Puleo]

Frank, oddly enough that was today's job. I started by finishing the notches.

 

 

This is the really bad front hub. All the holes are a mess from a ham-handed attempt by someone to drill the bolts out with a hand drill.

 

 

To get a proper measurement, I made a locating pin...

 

 

And set the better hub up in the mill with the best hole in place to locate the pin.

 

 

I lowered the table and replaced the better hub (I won't say good) with the really bad one. The end mill is ground to .700 - the hole size for a 3/4-20 thread.

 

 

I plunge milled the holes one at a time. As each was done I moved the bolts around so that it was never loose on the rotary table. When the end mill went through it left a little scrap of the bottom of the hole so you can see what was there and how the hole is now round.

 

 

Working around a second time, I threaded the holes.

 

 

And screw in one of my "hole repair" inserts I made a few weeks ago.

 

 

There are additional holes in this hub. I think that four of them were to attach the speedometer drive gear, now missing. There are a few others that I've no idea what they were intended for but they certainly look like "tractor mechanic" work.

This hub came out well. Further on, I will coat the threads on the inserts with flux and solder them in place – then turn them off so they are flush. I'm not doing that now because I would like to shrink fit the sleeves that will go in and that would melt the solder.

 

 

I now have to do the damaged rear hub – the one that "came from the factory" with egg-shaped holes. I started setting it up but decided that, since it was the end of the day, I'd likely make a mistake. In fact, something is wrong and I'd rather wait until the morning, when my thinking is clearer, to address that.

 

All of these holes are a nominal 7/16". The special bolts I'm going to make for the wheels will be 1/2" and all of the holes will be finished with the wheels assembled. It would be virtually impossible to drill all these holes and have everything line up perfectly. In fact, when I compared the holes in the outer flanges of the hubs with the holes in the main hub, they don't line up perfectly – another example of Mitchell "precision."

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Today I went back to repairing the rear hub. I did the set up again... as I was worried about it. The location of these holes is critical because they also position the brake drum. There is a little wiggle room here when I drill the final holes but, needless to say, I want it as near perfect as I can get it.

 

 

After hesitating for 20 minutes, trying to think if there was anything further I could do to check it, I milled the first hole.

 

 

All this went smoothly. I then tapped them and was lucky in that the tap just fit between the hub and the bottom of the spindle.

 

 

With the holes tapped and the "repair holes" inserted I checked it against the brake drum.

 

 

And it fit! the last hole (without a bolt in it) does line up but there is a burr on the brake drum that kept it from sliding in. In any case, in a circle like this if five out of six go in easily the last one cannot be far out. So, that's this part of the job completed.

 

 

Next up are the sleeves to hold the bearings but I decided I should do the easiest ones, the front hubs, first, and I need to get more steel tubing for that. In the meantime, I'll make the holder for the outside rear bearings (but I forgot to bring the drawing in) and the bolts that will hold the wheels together.

Edited November 17, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I'll add that I also tried the outer flange on the holes and it did not line up anywhere near as well as the hub did. I'm left feeling that the original holes were not drilled very straight. Given that the egg shaped holes in the rear hub were "factory" I don't think this it too far a reach. I will have to drill the new holes from the back as the alignment of the hub and brake drum are critical. If the holes in the front flange aren't perfect that will make no difference, especially as they will be covered by the heads of the bolts.

[JV Puleo]

 

I thought I had what I needed to make most of the sleeves that hold the bearings but, when I started taking measurements, it turned out I only had material for two of them. This morning I ordered the pieces of DOM tubing I'll need to make the remaining ones. In the meantime, so as not to waste time, I started on the bolts I want to hold the wheels together. These will have a high-domed head over a hex so they can be properly tightened. I started by cutting the blanks from a piece of 7/8" hex rod.

 

 

They were faced off on both sides.

 

 

So that they are all of identical length.

 

 

Then drilled and tapped 1/2" x 20.

 

 

As you can see, I didn't finish. I need 24 of these so even though it's easy work, it takes time.

 

[JV Puleo]

All finished. Although this was an easy job, it still took me all afternoon. It's a good example of why it costs so much to have others do this sort of work for you.

 

[JV Puleo]

I'm still plugging away at the wheel bolts. It's a good idea but making 24 of them can be tedious. Fortunately, it isn't hard so it is a job that lacks the tension I always feel when making something really demanding or machining on the original parts. I started the day by calculating the length of the front and rear bolts. The rear wheel bolts are longer because they have to pass through the brake drum...then cut pieces of 1/2" rod.

 

 

Then were then turned on both ends and trimmed so that the lengths would be identical.

 

 

And I started putting the reliefs in for the end of the threads. I got a little more than half of them done but I'll be able to finish this tomorrow and then start threading them.

 

[JV Puleo]

As I was working on this today it occurred to me that perhaps I should have tried to find some studs rather than making them...and then I remembered that I wanted the body of the bolt to be a true 1/2". Half-inch bolts aren't - they are slightly smaller so they will pass through a 1/2" hole easily but if I remember correctly the holes in wheels were drilled slightly undersize so the bolts had to be driven in. Today was taken up with finishing the relief cuts.

 

 

Then I put a chamfer on the edge where the nut will screw on.

 

 

And started threading them.

 

 

This die holder works well but 1/2-20 is about a big a bolt as you'd want to do without single-pointing it first. It's a lot of work cranking that around which you hardly think of when making one or two but takes some time when making 24 - and I'm actually making 26 - the two extras are insurance against problems. I got almost half of them done.

 

 

If the stars are aligned properly, I'll finish this step tomorrow and screw the heads on.

[JV Puleo]

I finished the threading - for some reason it didn't seem as tedious today, maybe because I was getting to the end.

 

 

Then each one goes back into the collet and the head screwed on with a drop of red Locktite.

 

 

They look good. This has also been an experiment in making multiple identical parts and so far I'm satisfied with the outcome.

 

 

Then, because there was a little time left, I set up the radius turning tool.

 

 

But...I think I've forgotten something. I didn't go any further because I want to scroll back through this thread and find where I made the prototype. I know I can do it because I've done it but the end of the day is no time for me to try something I'm not certain of.