My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

[JV Puleo]

All that sounds great. I don't think it could be very far out since it wouldn't work otherwise...

[JV Puleo]

First thing today I threaded the drag link ends. I got them just about right and then lapped the threads with the tool I'd made some time ago.

 

 

And the cap screwed on easily but with no noticeable looseness.

 

 

The second one was a breeze since I had the settings.

 

 

Then into the mill to cut the slot. The tape is there to make it easier to see the spot where the slot should stop.

 

 

 

Just to be sure, I assembled the first one.

 

 

I then did the 2nd end and assembled that one. You see them here with the lock nuts in place. I intend to make a brass shroud that will cover most of the slot but that will have to wait...I don't have the thin wall tubing I need.

 

 

The last effort was to assemble the end with the drag link...so far, so good. I thin these look pretty convincing.

 

[JV Puleo]

And, in answer to Gary's question regarding a 3-jaw and 4-jaw chuck, this is the setup for threading the drag link ends. Because I'm using the 4-jaw, I could cut the relief for the threads on both pieces before I threaded them. If I'd done this in a 3-jaw, I wouldn't have been confident I could get it perfectly centered again. Notice that the indicator reads "0". When I rotate the piece the needle doesn't fluctuate .001. Even most new 3-jaws aren't that accurate. On the other hand, you can get this degree of accuracy with a worn out 4-jaw...

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[chistech]

Joe,

My olds has a two piece thin metal shroud held together with a spring to cover the slot on my drag link ends. If you want a picture I'll find one and post. It's a pretty neat set up. It also uses a piece of felt under the metal to help hold the grease in and keep the weather out.

[JV Puleo]

Yes...a picture would be food if you can find one. I had in mind a slide on brass tube with a slot in it to allow it to pass the stud in the ball...then, I was going to make a leather "wrap around" that would clamp on. I like the idea of a felt to seal it though...that may be a better solution.

[JV Puleo]

This morning I hardened the "blocks" that hold the balls in the drag link. I've only done this once before so it's partly experimental. You heat them until they are no longer magnetic...a bright red, the drop them in oil. That's why I used oil hardening drill rod to make them. Unfortunately, I can't take photos while doing it.

 

 

This should make them "glass hard" so you want to draw the temper. That's done by reheating them at about 600 degrees for two or three hours. Not having any kind of heat treating furnace, I got out my ancient lead melting pot - inherited from a friend and that I used to melt lead to cast bullets years ago. It's heated up and the blocks floated on the lead.

 

 

And left alone all day... While that was going on, I went back to the rear axle. This cap fits over the bearings I installed. Originally it had a big grease cup screwed into the top. I'm going to replace that with a square-head set screw that will (I hope) lock the bearing in place.

 

 

In order to get the correct thread on the inside of the hole I'm making a couple more threaded liners. For this, I cut two 1" pieces from the prop shaft I inherited. They get drilled and reamed to 3/8".

 

 

And threaded 11/16-16.

 

 

The 3/8" measurement was to allow me to use a mandrel to hold them while threading and provide a guide for the counterbore I'll use to face them off flush after they are inserted.

 

 

And, before leaving I unplugged the lead pot and pulled the block out. I'll re-polish these tomorrow.

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Laughing Coyote]

Joe, Do the jaws on your 4 way chuck move independently of each other or do they all move like a 3 jaw chuck when you use a chuck key? 

[JV Puleo]

They move separately - which is why I have to indicate anything I put in it. The reason 3-jaws aren't particularly accurate is that it is impossible to make the "scroll" that connects the jaws without allowing some clearance. As they get older, the scroll wears which increases the inaccuracy - or, to use the specialized term, "repeatability".

[JV Puleo]

I re-polished the blocks and reassembled the drag link ends. There are a few more tweaks I can do - and may do one of them tomorrow but today I worked on the caps that hod the rear axle bearings. I also noticed that one has some rather severe wear....why is anyone's guess though it looks as if the outer race of the bearing was spinning. I have a repair in mind, but the manner in which I'm securing the new bearings make this relatively unimportant.

 

 

I drilled the caps and threaded them for the sleeves I made yesterday.

 

 

I'm going to Locktite the sleeves in place and I thought it would be a good idea to clean these before I do that since I've no idea how the how the caustic soda will effect the Locktite. so, I set up my improvised hot tank.

 

 

I let them cook most of the day. In the meantime I fiddled with my valve grinder - another tool that I've rebuilt but am not happy with the results. I've already made two spindles for it but cannot seem to get it to run less than .003 out of round. I've been thinking of how to correct that but the oil pump on it also failed...so I'm modifying a VW oil pump that I will power with a small electric motor.

I milled off part of the pump housing and made a little sleeve to mount a sheeve on the oil pump. By the time I'd finished that, the bearing caps were clean so I put the threaded sleeves in.

 

 

They are supposed to be flush...I'll do that tomorrow and also mill the boss on the cap perfectly flush and, I was able to assemble the modified oil pump to the point where I can think about the next step.

 

 

 

 

[JV Puleo]

First thing this morning I set the caps in the milling machine.

 

 

And cut the top down flush...

 

 

The next step was supposed to be counterbored from the other side but when I searched through the counterbore drawer, it appears I don't have the correct pilot. I had to order that...

In the meantime I decided to make grease cups to hide the Zerk fittings I'll put in the ends of the drag link.

I cut two pieces o 7/8" brass hex - apparently too long but I'm not sure where I made the math error.

 

 

Turned to 1/2" on the end that will screw into the cap and 13/16 on the end that gets a cover.

 

 

Then threaded on the big end...

 

 

I've another to do. When I finish them I'll make the covers...

[JV Puleo]

I threaded the 2nd grease cup fitting this morning, then drilled them out and put the concave shape in the end.

 

 

Then turned them around and threaded the part that screws into the drag link end.

 

 

I still have to thread them for the Zerk fittings I'll install but couldn't remember what the thread was...

 

 

So I went on and cut 3 pieces of brass tube for the caps.

 

 

And threaded them...

 

 

Since these are basically the same as the caps I made for the spring shackle bolts I had the pieces I needed to solder the tops on the caps. I have 3 1" brass discs so I'll make 3 of them.

 

 

And while those were cooling I went up to the office and looked up the record on the Zerk fittings - which tole me the thread was 1/4-28. I knew I had the right tap, since I'd done it before but simply couldn't remember which one it was.

 

 

I'll finish the caps tomorrow. So far, it's gone smoothly and I don't want to mess things up by rushing it...besides, it's not like the car is going anywhere!

[alsfarms]

Nice work Joe.  I did a similar grease fitting build for my Locomobile.  I did my caps just a bit different as I calculated the height of a typical "pinch top" cap and left enough brass stock that I can form the pinch top on the milling machine.  I am impressed with your approach to grease fittings.

Al

[JV Puleo]

Al...how do you make the caps? I confess that is one thing I haven't figured out. In period, they were "drawn" brass - made using the same method that is used to make cartridge cases – but I'm not about to try to find an antique cartridge making machine.*

 

*As an added -and completely unrelated aside to that...In 1868 the Russian government approached the Ordnance Department to purchase 7 cartridge making machines left over from the Civil War. The Russians had just adopted the .42 Berdan, the first center-fire rifle cartridge adopted by any national government. In 1862, Alexander II's government sent the Russian Fleet to the United States on a good-will tour, essentially to demonstrate to the British that if they came into the war on the Southern side, Russia would consider coming in on the Federal side. In appreciation for the support on the international scene that Russia had lent during the war, the Ordnance Department sent the machines and refused payment.

[Terry Harper]

Hello Joe,

 

Speaking of drawn cartridges. I was just think how there was a company out west in the 1990's that made turned brass cartridges for some of the odd proprietary cartridges used in Ballard rifles - such as their everlasting cases in fact there is a company today(Robinson Cartridge Company) who are milling out wildcat and obsolete cartridges such as 40-70 sharps (bn) from solid. So there is methodology.

 

What if you bored and threaded the cap and than used a tool post grinder to profile and grind the outside diameter? You would be able to get the cap pretty thin doing it this way. In addition, many of the grease cup caps we have on our machinery and equipment are steel as opposed to brass and thus less prone to splitting when someone cranks them down too hard.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I'm familiar with the turned cartridge cases. I've even had a few. One problem with the bottlenecks is that there is no way to do that so they are straight inside. In order to approximate the black powder charge you have to use a mild smokeless...I guess that's fine with the single-shot rifle aficionados but they don't obturate properly. The big problem with the early self-contained cartridges was that no proper alloy had been invented that would expand and seal the breech and then return to it's original size so it could be extracted. This is why the early cartridges were made of copper and it's why the extractors on trapdoor Springfields sometimes tore the heads off. It wasn't until the mid-1880s that the Ordnance department went to brass. Those turned brass cases often have the same expansion problems if the wall thickness is too great.

 

The problem with the caps on grease cups is the internal thread. Even using a bottoming tap, you can only get so close although it is an idea worth looking into. I may try making one just to see how it comes out. Many of the caps on this car were steel - some were brass or, at least, some that came with it were. Who knows if they were original to it.

 

Funny you mention a tool post grinder. I have two of them and have never used either but just this week I downloaded the manuals from the Dunmore site. It turns out one is too small for my lathe and the one that is large enough is missing some of the assorted bits that came with it. I'm seriously thinking of making or buying the necessary parts and learning to use it. In fact, I'm thinking of fixing the valve grinder, the tool post grinder and the taper attachment on the lathe...all distractions from the car work but it has to be done eventually.

 

Send me those South Bend parts...I've been looking into it and I don't think fixing that will be a problem.

 

 

[alsfarms]

Hello Joe, When I started restoration on my Locomobile, I quickly saw that in 1909 Locomobile had not worried much about the heat treatment process for some items, especially shackle bolts.  I was in grease cup building mode for most of a winter as time permitted making the better part of 30 of these.  Then I built duplicate shackle bolts using 4140 hex as the parent material, very similar top ends.  I will attach a few pictures so you can see a bit of this not quite completed project.  The base part of the "Pinch Top" grease fittings were steel originally and once again, I used 4140 hex to build the base for the  grease fittings. I chose not to go extremely thin wall on the pinch top cap and I left enough material above the ID threads that jI can form the  pinch top with a ball end mill.  I also like you want to be sure I am getting grease where grease should be and that means grease under pressure as applied by a grease gun, not just screwing down the cap while hoping that grease will be forced where needed. 

Al

 

[alsfarms]

More

 

[alsfarms]

More

 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

More

This is one of the nearly complete shackle pins with integral grease fitting per original design.  I still need to run threads and heat treat.

Al

 

 

[JV Puleo]

Thanks...you've given me some good ideas although I have to admit that, at this point, I'm not ready to go back and make them over. It's interesting how we've arrived at practically the same place although I made the shafts of the pins from ground Stressproof and the heads from L1214 hex stock. I could have them heat treated but I'm wondering if that's needed. As is, they are far better than the originals and with perfectly fitted bushings and extreme pressure grease forced in under pressure I doubt they'd ever wear out - at least in my lifetime.

[Terry Harper]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

I guess that's fine with the single-shot rifle aficionados but they don't obturate properly.

Very true! I spent quite a bit of time developing and loading paper patched bullets. That almighty thump from a case full of black powder working on a soft lead bullet was key to success. You don't get that with smokeless.  

 

In regards to the tool post grinder. One set up you will love it. It opens up a whole avenue of possibilities.

 

On another note. One of our machines used hard stick grease i.e. you would take a stick of hard grease put it in the hole and screw the plug in forcing the grease into the bearing etc. You can still buy it in block form but its not cheap. We ended-up adapting zerk fittings that are hidden under a cap that looks just like the threaded plugs.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I took note of Al's post and turned the caps to 15/16 rather then 7/8 leaving a little more wall thickness.

 

 

Then knurled them to match the others...so these are nearly finished. they still need a shroud to go over the slots and I'm going to use Ted's suggestion and put a piece of 1/16" hard felt under the shroud and around the post on the ball...

 

 

 

[JV Puleo]

I went back to the bearing caps this morning...first counterboring the inside about 1/8" deep.

 

 

 

Then drilled and tapped 1/2-13

 

 

 

They will get old fashioned square head set screws with an oversized brass lock nut.

 

 

Then I made the little inserts that go on the inside. These will go up against the outer bearing race. The diameter is 3-1/4" so I needed a cutter of that dimension to put a radius on them.

 

 

Then they were faced off to very slightly more than 1/4" thick. I got this idea from my machine tools – this is the sort of clamp that is used to lock a lathe spindle.

 

[chistech]

Joe, here are the two half of the ball shield I was talking about. One has two ears that a small compression spring hooks onto and holds the two half’s in place. As you can see they’re designed to intersect each other. A layer of felt goes between them and the surface of the tie rod end. I’m looking for a picture of it installed on my tie rod but I can’t find one as of yet. I made these two, copies of my originals, for my buddy Joe who was missing a set. 

[chistech]

I found a picture of another 32’ old with the tie rod end covers but they’re not on correctly. The owner looks to have them on with a wire instead of the compression spring and on the Olds, the covers have a lip on the end so the cover stays in place without rubbing on the shaft of the ball. You can see in the picture that the end of the cover is beyond the end of the tie rod end. There’s supposed to be one on each end of the drag link. I realize now that I’ve been saying tie rod ends but the 32’ Olds used sealed, modern type tie rod ends rather than the ball, socket, and spring combination.

[JV Puleo]

Thanks Ted. Those are very similar to the idea I had. I especially like the felt...

[Gary_Ash]

Ted, I think it's actually an extension spring, not compression spring.

Compression and extension springs

[JV Puleo]

Today I did a bit more fitting of the new bearings in the rear axle, starting by finishing the 1/8" thick spacers that will clamp over the outer bearing races. I put a 1" hole in the exact center...

 

 

Then cut a 1/4" slot down the middle.

 

 

You can see how the two bearing races meet in the center.

 

 

I also drilled out the pins in the caps that were part of the original bearings and put it together. I cut 4 little rectangles of fish paper to fit between the cap and the spacer to make sure it compresses.

Much of the day was spent fussing with the adjustments. Where I'd been worried that I would have to little room, it turns out I have plenty - enough so that I'll have to ship the thrust bearings on the reverse side. I think this will work just fine but I can tell assembling and adjusting it will be a fussy job.

 

 

[chistech]

15 hours ago, Gary_Ash said:

Ted, I think it's actually an extension spring, not compression spring.

Compression and extension springs

You are correct. My bad!😃

[JV Puleo]

I had planned to replace the coolant pump on my valve grinder today but, before I took it apart I decided to give it another try...and it worked perfectly! I don't know what I did wrong the last time but that had to be 5 years ago - probably more because this was one of the earliest machines I resurrected. There are two problems - the coolant pump and the spindle. These machines were not all that perfect to begin with and, on this one, the collet that holds the valves is badly bent. New ones are unavailable so I made a new spindle to take AT3 spring collets. It looked good but I was unable to get it to run any closer than .003...on the high end of acceptable for modern cars but not good enough for me to feel satisfied. Then I made a 2nd spibndle, this time using an ER25 collet holder. This one also ran out .003 so I gave up in disgust and pushed it over into a corner.

 

 

But, I'm eventually going to need it and last week I had another idea. I ordered another ER25 collet holder, this time with a 3/4" straight shaft and a piece of 1-7/16: bar (the spindle is 1-3/8" in diameter). I'm going to ream the 3rd spindle .0005 undersize and then have my cutter grinding friend grind it to 1-3/8" That should put the hole in the center perfectly concentric with the OD - something I've not been able to do with my antique lathe. Of course, for all ordinary car work holding a concentric tolerance of .003 is easily adequate. This is a good example of why making machine tools is far more demanding than auto work.

 

Then I went on and dug out my tool post grinder.

 

 

I have two of these but the other one, which is much more compete, is for a lathe with a maximum swing of 14". My lathe is a nominal 15" and really swings close to 17".

 

 

And, just to finish the day up on a high point, I painted another piece of the motorcycle front end. I'm almost ready to reassemble it.

 

 

It's clear I'll have to make some parts and I'll probably have to buy some as well. The next step on the rear axle is the wheel bearings. Those are going to require a pressed in sleeve in the hub so I can fit modern tapered roller bearings and I'm thinking that it would be good to be able to grind the internal surfaces. I might be very difficult to get a perfect finish and hold the very tight tolerance needed otherwise. Grinding is how they are made but in most cases I'm able to work around that. If this doesn't work, I'll do without but it seems foolish not to give it a try.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

Hello Joe, 

 

That Dumore tool post grinder  is exactly what I used on my valves etc. Worked great with the 13" Southbend

 

T

[JV Puleo]

As I was leaving tonight an idea came to me...the smaller grinder is much more complete and nothing I'm going to grind requires the large grinding stones that the larger one can handle. I think I can make a new tool post for it to raise the center of the spindle to the proper height for my lathe. Ironically enough, I'd have to make one for the bigger grinder because it has obviously been modified at some point...

[JV Puleo]

I spent the day fiddling with the tool post grinder. First making this spacer block to raise it so that the spindle is aligned with the lathe spindle.

 

 

Then making a "T" bolt to hold it down - one of the parts that is missing.

 

 

The height is a little off...a bit too high but that is easily fixed.

 

 

I then assembled it and set it up - never having seen one of these in use before.

 

 

 

And when I plugged it it...I got an electrical shock when touching the lathe. It must be leaking electricity somewhere...likely there is something wrong with the motor but I confess that I've very little experience with small HP electric motors. I'm not sure what to do here but I'm told there is an excellent motor repair place in town so chances are I'll look them up. I'm guessing there is someone here that knows a lot more about electric motors than I do so if you have a suggestion I'm all ears.

 

If you are wondering where all this is heading, this is the rear hub.

 

 

The original bearing was 4-3/4" OD and 2-1/2" ID. I can't change the ID measurement so I will have to make a sleeve to press into the hub that has a 4-1/4" ID. Because I'm adopting original parts, the bearing are huge - far larger than we would use today...you could support a cement mixed on these wheel bearings.

 

My intention is to use the grinder to grind the ID of the sleeve. I'm not concerned about the finish on the OD of the sleeve but to press the bearing race in I need to get both a precise size and a smooth surface in the inside and grinding is the best way to do that. When I get this all straightened out, it will add a considerable degree of precision to my work (I hope)!

Edited August 19, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

A good starting point on the electrical side is to make sure that line (likely black) from your shop is going to Line on the motor and neutral (likely white) to the other wires (usually in a bundle).  It is possible to get this switched and it still work, however, you can get a bit of "line" on the casing of the motor and thus you'll get a bit of shock.   This reminds me I need to start keeping a better lookout for a TP grinder.

[Terry Harper]

Joe,

 

I am pretty sure you know this already but I am going to throw it out there for those who don't....  make sure to protects the ways and cross slide etc. with paper towels. (Don't use rags!) Otherwise the grit from the grinding wheel will mix with the oil and act as a lapping paste. If you use rags and they get caught-up in the chuck or work they can potentially catch a hand etc. where as paper towels will simply shred. You can dampen the paper with oil or WD40 to help collect the grit.

 

T.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Yes...I had given that some thought. Actually, I was going to use newspaper. My cousin gave me an interesting idea...to hold the paper down with small magnets...which may attract some of the grit.

 

Jeff...I'm not sure I understand. Presumably there are 3 wires...white, black and green. Green is the ground and I've already checked the power cord to make sure there is continuity in the ground circuit. Are you saying that if the black and white wires are reversed it may work (it does work) but that you can get a shock from it. I don't ever remember having a problem like this and I must have connected dozens of electric motors without ever apying any attention to that.

Edited August 20, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

Yes, however if you have the ground connected and that checked out then it is not likely line and neutral are reversed.  If ground isn't connected and thus isn't connected to the frame of the motor then it would be possible for line/neutral to be switched with line touching the frame.  If your ground is connected to the motor frame then it would blow a fuse if line was leaking into the frame. 

[JV Puleo]

Hmmm...most of the wiring in the shop was there when I moved in. I did the 3-phase stuff but nothing - or not much with the 110 and the receptacle I used is one that was there. Generally, the wiring looks good - none of it is extremely old but you never can tell. The previous owner of the building was, shall we say, not very fastidious. He was running a sweat shop making oriental restaurant decorations in the cellar (where the shop is)...

 

The power cord attached to the motor with a special plug. I tested the cord but I suppose it could be disconnected inside the motor housing - though that seems pretty unlikely. Tomorrow I'll try a different receptacle and see if that makes a difference. It did work and it didn't snap a breaker.

Edited August 20, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[chistech]

But it lit you Up! LOL As was mentioned, sometimes people wire things with the black and white wires incorrectly and you get shocks. It was happening in my brother's truck camper when he had it plugged in and he touched the truck frame while laying on the ground. He felt electricity. Turns out the buddy that helped him put a few outlets in his out building didn't bother to hook up the ground and had the black wires on the silver colored terminals and white wires on the brass ones. He was feeding anything plugged in with the neutral and power reversed.

 

[JV Puleo]

I spent the day fiddling with the grinder again. I tried plugging it into another socket - and this time, no shock. I'm wondering if it might have been the extension cord I used the first time - an old one that I borrowed from a friend about 15 years ago (he's as bad as I am remembering where things go). I'm still going to have to buy some of the missing bits and some new grinding wheels. The Dumore parts are expensive but I'd rather not experiment too much - there is still a learning curve here and I don't want to complicate it. I did start on a short internal grinding extension, something that is simple enough that I'm not worried about making my own.