FleaBay Does it Again! Museum Quality GT350?

[Guest]

Current listing for a 1966 Mustang, Hertz GT 350 out of Costa Mesa, CA. for $119,800. Fully documented and previously part of a museum collection.

But when you see the first image posted it's clear to anyone who knows Mustangs that the car has the back up light fixtures bolted in place of the front turn signals!

[John_S_in_Penna]

I can't speak for this particular Ford, but

I often chuckle to myself when I hear the term

"museum quality."  Has anyone noticed what

museums' cars are really like?  Some cars are

beautifully restored, but rarely driven so mechanically

questionable.  Some museum cars no longer run.

Even cosmetically, some museum cars are in

#3 condition at best.  It's a rare museum whose cars

are all in perfect condition and mechanically maintained!

[captndan]

A museum car would likely be listed on Hemming's not flea bay.  

[West Peterson]

3 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

I can't speak for this particular Ford, but

I often chuckle to myself when I hear the term

"museum quality."  Has anyone noticed what

museums' cars are really like?  Some cars are

beautifully restored, but rarely driven so mechanically

questionable.  Some museum cars no longer run.

Even cosmetically, some museum cars are in

#3 condition at best.  It's a rare museum whose cars

are all in perfect condition and mechanically maintained!

You are exactly right, John. "Museum Quality" is a term that shouldn't be used to describe perfection. In the real world, museum quality means it's probably going to take a lot of  $$ to either get it up and running, or into show condition. Many a museum put a quicky paint job on their vehicles and put them out for display.

[Guest]

Oh, but the AACA Museum ( which has nothing to do with the AACA, I should point out) would never do such a thing.

[JACK M]

Good eye Greg, I am not Mustang savvy so would have never noticed.

Sellers of rare collectables all fall into a sort of 'wanna be' category in my eyes.

(I do some part time work for a couple of those guys). (I get calls that a customer is on the way and they cant get a car to start, Usually out of gas).

[capngrog]

12 hours ago, GregLaR said:

Current listing for a 1966 Mustang, Hertz GT 350 out of Costa Mesa, CA. for $119,800. Fully documented and previously part of a museum collection.

But when you see the first image posted it's clear to anyone who knows Mustangs that the car has the back up light fixtures bolted in place of the front turn signals!

 

Greg,

 

Could you please post a link to the ebay listing?

 

Thanks,

Grog

[Brass is Best]

"Museum Quality" means nothing. You can put anything in a museum.

[Paul Dobbin]

That's why museums don;t make a lot of money off guys on this Forum.  All experts in our own minds.  Kinds like the people at car shows who ask if I'm the original owner of our 1934 Ford Fordor, (Do I really look that old?) or the one who claims to have a Model T Roadster just like it at home.  Personally I missed the turn signals, but they sure looked nice, (and we owned a 65 Mustang for 24 years).

At least the author knew what "Museum Quality" was.  In our garage, everything is museum quality, my museum.  If you think Mustang folks are critical, try a Corvette show.

[mike6024]

link http://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-Ford-Mustang-/332186626242?hash=item4d57dda8c2:g:HK0AAOSwWkJY9WgH&vxp=mtr

 

So it really was in a museum, the BlackHawk Museum. http://www.blackhawkmuseum.org/?hp=5793451706679296

 

Klasse Auto is very proud to offer this very rare and original 1966 Ford Mustang GT350 Hertz. Don't miss this opportunity to get a killer deal on a genuine and verified GT350 Hertz. This car has spent the last 20 years in a California warehouse and before that was in the Blackhawk Museum. If you are a die hard Ford Mustang collector or want to become one this is definitely one of the cars you want in your stable. This is a local car so there is zero rust issues and the interior on the car is all original as well. It comes with the Shelby American World Registry book showing the VIN # of this car as well as a GT350 serial number verification letter from the Shelby American Club. As I said before the car has been sitting on rollers in a warehouse the past 20 years. When we got it we just changed all the fluids, installed a new thermostat, and had the radiator gone thru so just the normal maintenance due after sitting. This is the REAL DEAL and NOT A TRIBUTE car to be clear and 100% Original. Most items on this car are original especially in the interior, the rear quarter panes have been changed at one time and the engine block itself is not a matching number. If you know what you are looking at you know this is the one! It starts right up every time and runs amazing for being an older car. Any questions or concerns and if you need to inspect the car please do before the auction ends. Any questions about the car don't hesitate to contact us ....

Edited April 21, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

The price is relatively low because almost all of the Hertz cars were automatics.  The automatic is a 25% price hit.

[Willie Wurke]

I see nothing "amazing' about a 1966 model car starting every time.  I would expect that of a 1926 model! 

[vermontboy]

" the rear quarter panes have been changed at one time and the engine block itself is not a matching number. "

 

That would be another reason the price is so low. If the rear quarter panels were not changed due to rust than one would assume the car was in an accident. If the block was changed ...... how many other parts are not original, and why ?

[Guest GT52]

59 minutes ago, alsancle said:

The price is relatively low because almost all of the Hertz cars were automatics.  The automatic is a 25% price hit.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from.  NADA makes no price distinction between sticks and automatics on most if not all Shelby Mustang models.  They do show the '66 Hertz cars at about $3K less than non-Hertz models, but that is on a $200K "average retail" price, so something like 1-1/2% penalty for being a Hertz car.  The Hertz connection itself has always had a minor negative effect on Shelby Mustang values, and maybe some of that is because of the automatic.  When NADA does account for sticks v automatics in muscle cars, and they often do, I don't think I've ever seen the difference exceed 10%, which can still be a pretty good chunk of money.

 

Too funny about the backup lights used being as the front turn signals...I never saw that one before, and I can hardly believe that they seem to fit reasonably well!  It's likely that the car is a pretty old restoration, when a lot less information was available and restoration standards were much lower than they are today.

 

 

[39BuickEight]

Overall this appears to be a very descriptive and well done listing.  Any car can be picked apart, but the ad itself seems to point out the pluses and minuses.  If it's priced too high, it won't sell.  The ad is much better than most and the seller has perfect feedback?  A car like that won't sell without a proper inspection anyway.  

[John_S_in_Penna]

"...the car has been sitting on rollers in a warehouse the past 20 years...."

 

Greg LaR was right:  It was sitting for many years--

so it really is "museum quality!"  (And that's not a plus.) 

[alsancle]

11 hours ago, GT52 said:

I'm not sure where you're getting that from. 

 

 

35 years of collecting musclecars.   There is a big difference between selling  a musclecar with a stick vs an automatic.   The price guide doesn't tell you because price guides are 100% WORTHLESS.

[captndan]

Sorry folks but I can't get excited about too many cars over $100K.  And this ain't one of them.

[Guest GT52]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

35 years of collecting musclecars.   There is a big difference between selling  a musclecar with a stick vs an automatic.   The price guide doesn't tell you because price guides are 100% WORTHLESS.

So you think that NADA just makes up the numbers?  Do you think that dealers/buyers/insurers/lenders don't use the NADA guide?  Nothing's perfect, but someone ignores the NADA guide at their own peril.

 

The "high retail" on a '66 GT350 is $255K.  So by your 25% stick v automatic logic a stick should bring nearly $65K more than an automatic, which just simply isn't the case...not even close.  It is true that an automatic will limit the number of buyers to some extent, because there are buyers who simply won't consider an automatic, but that may or may not affect the price.  These are very high value very low production cars and there are a myriad of factors that will affect the price far more than stick v automatic.  I don't know what's "wrong" with the GT350 in question, but at that price it would be long gone if there weren't some issues.

[JACK M]

So, the car in question doesn't have or didn't come with back up lights?

[alsancle]

If I'm in a conversation with a supposed car guy and he says either of the following:

 

1.  "such and such 1964 blah blah is a Classic"

 

or

 

2. " such and such price guide says the car with worth X"

 

I have officially stopped listening.  Car guides are not accurate in any way, shape or form for ANY interesting car.  They are probably dead on for your run of the mill homogenized 4 door sedan made in quantities of 1 million units.

 

Telling me that the price guide is says a 66 Shelby is worth 255 High retail makes my point.   There are are some 66 Shelbys (i.e. the 65 continuation cars) that may get that high but there are no Hertz cars that would.

[edinmass]

Where do we start......price guides or automatic vs stick. 

 

Price guides.......aren't worth the paper their printed on. At least toilet paper is useful and serves a function. My favorite thing to see in a price guide is a value for a car that doesn't even exsist. I see it all the time. I have been in the hobby over forty years, and have never used a price guide to find or figure a value of any car.

 

Stick vs automatic. Why waste my breath. On most decent muscle cars there's a forty percent price difference from a four speed to an automatic. Try and sell a "big time" sixties car for major money with an automatic.....not gonna happen. You will only sell it on price, NOT desirability. 

 

As as far as museum quaility..........It's just a driver. Replaced quarters and incorrect engine make it a bottom feeder car in the collector car world. As far as the museum collection it came from, you can be rest assured that it was a bulk buy situation and the car just came along for the ride. That orginazation has no interest in cars that sell for less than 250,000. The name of the game in car collecting today is provenance. Period. Any story and the car is crap. That applies to brass cars, Classics of the thirties, and the post war collectibles. 

 

But......then again what do I know, an entire lifetime lived in the hobby? Drive you car, enjoy your car, consume it. Currently in my garage I have a bottom feeder low end car, and a 100 point multi cylinder monster Classic. Today I plan on driving the car that costs less than my lawn mower. It isn't about the cost, or the prestige, I drive what I like. Seems to me that is what a hobby is all about. Off to feed the  chickens.......Ed

 

As far as the car in the Ebay ad........the truth Hertz don't it? ?

Edited April 22, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Guest GT52]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

...Stick vs automatic. Why waste my breath. On most decent muscle cars there's a forty percent price difference from a four speed to an automatic. Try and sell a "big time" sixties car for major money with an automatic.....not gonna happen. You will only sell it on price, NOT desirability...

 

Now we're up to a 40% premium for a 4 speed?  Hilarious.

 

Why is it that most times I've run into someone lecturing about NADA and KBB guides being worthless they've either been trying to sell me something for more than book value or trying to buy something from me for less than the book value?  But really then, why wouldn't I believe a random post on the internet or a random person showing up in my driveway, instead of an official publication of a well recognized professional organization dedicated to the process?

 

I'm sure there'd be quite a line forming for any hemi Cuda/Torqueflite, LS6 Chevelle/TH400, COPO Camaro/TH400, or even an early max wedge Polara/Torqueflite that was suddenly 40% off...even though they're clearly "undesirable" because of the transmission.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by GT52
spelling (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Gt52 have you ever been to a world class collection of cars? True connoisseurs don't buy marginal or cars with stories. A car with an automatic transmission will almost always take it out of the running for an important collectible. Is there an example of a car from the muscle car era with an automatic that brought more money than the vertually identicle car but with a four speed? Suppose you think the auctions you see on tv are all real......... most of the cars have shill bidders pushing them......... and by the way, most cars valued under say 500,000 dollars aren't really that rare or collectiable. Sad to say, but the working man today usually can't afford the best of what he is interested in. The best cars most often don't make it to public sale or auction. The best of the best are spoken for long before they come up for sale, only the price has to be determined. Try and buy a top five of any type of car........... there is usually a long lined of interested buyers.

 

Maybe it should be a 40 percent deductible for an automatic. And not a premium for a four speed. 

Edited April 22, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, GT52 said:

Now we're up to a 40% premium for a 4 speed?  Hilarious.

 

Why is it that most times I've run into someone lecturing about NADA and KBB guides being worthless they've either been trying to sell me something for more than book value or trying to buy something from me for less than the book value?  But really then, why wouldn't I believe a random post on the internet or a random person showing up in my driveway, instead of an official publication of a well recognized professional organization dedicated to the process?

 

I'm sure there'd be quite a line forming for any hemi Cuda/Torqueflite, LS6 Chevelle/TH400, COPO Camaro/TH400, or even an early max wedge Polara/Torqueflite that was suddenly 40% off...even though they're clearly "undesirable" because of the transmission.

 

 

 

I'm assuming that you are either an appraiser or have a lot of stock in NADA or KBB.  I know some appraisers who I respect so I won't disparage the lot but you can probably guess what I think of them too.  

 

Sure a Hemi Cuda with an automatic will find a home,  but the same car with the 4 gear will find a home 5x quicker and at a premium much higher than 10%. If you think otherwise you have never bought or sold a musclecar. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, JACK M said:

So, the car in question doesn't have or didn't come with back up lights?

Jack, if you look at the picture in the very first post of this thread you'll see the back up light mounted in place of the right front turn signal.

And yes, 1966 should have back up lights but they should be mounted to the rear valance, not the front one. 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[mike6024]

Edited April 22, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[Guest]

Perfect!

[Guest GT52]

19 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

I'm assuming that you are either an appraiser or have a lot of stock in NADA or KBB.  I know some appraisers who I respect so I won't disparage the lot but you can probably guess what I think of them too.  

 

Sure a Hemi Cuda with an automatic will find a home,  but the same car with the 4 gear will find a home 5x quicker and at a premium much higher than 10%. If you think otherwise you have never bought or sold a musclecar. 

Well you're wrong on all counts, but I've long learned there's no point in arguing the point.

 

Anyone can choose for themselves.  Use the opinion of a guide used by millions, from a 100 year old organization that collects data from thousands of dealers sharing their actual sales information, or go with the opinion of an unknown internet poster claiming that they have a lot of experience and know a lot...some of whom clearly do not.

[trimacar]

Well, interesting, I've had personal experience with stick versus automatic on two very desirable cars.

 

First was a 1966 Mustang GT K convertible, hi-po engine with a factory automatic.  Now, I had many people tell me that none came from the factory this way, but they did, and all the numbers on the car were correct and showed that option.  It was a very nice car, and when I sold it (about 15 years ago), I sold it for top dollar AT THE TIME for a K Mustang.  They've gone up in value considerably since then, of course...

 

Second was a 1963 Corvette split window, again an automatic which I know people say is the kiss of death for a Corvette.  It was a driver quality car, had correct engine and accessories, was painted a metallic blue which was incorrect, and the previous owner had put an awful white interior in it.  The car needed a restoration, but drove great and was respectable as is.  I sold it at Hershey 4 years ago for mid five figures, which I think was at market for any split window in that condition at the time.

 

So, these weren't the serious cars that Ed is discussing, and just my experiences, but in both cases I don't feel the automatic hurt either car.  I'd bought them specifically BECAUSE they were automatics and my wife could drive them (she can't physically handle a clutch any more), and I know that on at least one of the cars above that was part of the reason the buyer wanted the car......

[edinmass]

I agree with trimacar.......on mid level or hobby level cars, the trans is not as critical to price. On the great stuff......it's everything.

[trimacar]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

I agree with trimacar.......on mid level or hobby level cars, the trans is not as critical to price. On the great stuff......it's everything.

And I agree with you agreeing with me (which is always a pleasure!) ....and your comment too, high dollar cars have to have the good stuff to bring the right monetary compensation.....

 

I still get a kick out of the way a lot of late '60's Chrysler product muscle cars are restored....I can tell you from personal experience, as a car guy shopping for a new car in 1969, that the fit and finish on Chrysler products was absolutely terrible......and if everything fits and there are no rattles when running or driving on a restored such car, then it's over restored.....I know, still desirable cars, but "perfect" was not a word used at the factory for sure....and never crossed the lips of any Chrysler dealer when the cars were new....

[alsancle]

Dave,  in your situation with both the K code and the 63 Vette the automatic is actually pretty rare with both of them.  There are a small percentage of buyers that prefer or need the auto so in this case it worked to your advantage.  For the great majority of cars the percentages are reversed. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by alsancle (see edit history)

[padgett]

So a special edition of a known muscle car with a four speed and AC should be worth big bucx ?

OTOH I have found price guides to be handy in driving the price of a car I'm thinking about down.

But in the end it all depends on what the last two bidders have enough credit to spend.

[West Peterson]

On 4/23/2017 at 11:43 AM, GT52 said:

.. or go with the opinion of an unknown internet poster claiming that they have a lot of experience and know a lot...some of whom clearly do not.

GT52, you know not of what you speak. Neither Al nor Ed are unknown. Both are LONG time big players in the hobby, and are both respected by everyone I know in the hobby. In addition, they give their real names in their posts and do not hide behind a contrived "handle."

 

I've been in the hobby just as long as both Ed and Al and have rubbed elbows with some of the most well-known hobbyists in the world. I'm also an automotive journalist, editor, photographer, etc. In addition, I've been appraising automobiles since 1984 for a company that's been in business since 1976.

 

That said, I slightly disagree with both Ed and Al in that appraisal GUIDES are "100% worthless" (although they explained their comment further by saying they're worthless for the high end vehicles). Price GUIDES are just that... guides. As a user of them regularly, one gets a feel for which are accurate, and which are not. NONE of the guides are good 'across the board,' but each seem to have their own strength in a certain genre. And one should always remember that the guides are also just opinions of the editor/publisher.

 

One thing I've always found funny are the guides that give values right down to the ten spot, i.e. $35,350. Really? You give an opinion about a car's value and say it's worth exactly $350 more than $35,000??? Why not $35,500, or just $35,000. The odd figures make you wonder that all they've done is hit the % button across the board when they update the next edition.

[Guest GT52]

3 hours ago, West Peterson said:

GT52, you know not of what you speak...

Fair enough, everyone's entitled to their opinion on such things.  Maybe you can point out what I said that is verifiably wrong?

 

Maybe if you and Al and Ed all agree that a 4 speed muscle car reliably brings a 40% premium over an automatic high end muscle car one of you could cite some actual sales on two otherwise comparable muscle cars...instead of just assurances of how much experience you have, how much you know, and who you've rubbed elbows with.

[West Peterson]

You were wrong in stating that Al and Ed were unknown internet posters. Their knowledge and experience qualify them to make knowlegeable statements and/or opinions.

[edinmass]

?

 

Thanks for the kind words gentlemen! I think the issue is 99.9 percent of cars are not what we would call blue chip cars, while others often look at common or fairly common cars as deseriable and collectible. What's a decent car to have as a long term collectiable from the fifties or sixties? An alloy gullwing would come to mind, along with the pony cars that run from five to forty million. When put it that perspective almost any American iron falls short. And to be honest, I rather have the American iron over the foreign stuff. That's makes the worlds best Yenko look like a starter car. It's all in the perspective. I have owned a few good sixties cars. Back when you could get a decent and reasonably desirable car for three grand. I sure wish I kept the 69 pace car and the other assorted cars we ruined. I am quite sure most of the guys at Barret Jackson wouldn't talk to me if they knew what we did to the iron we had. I guess we did contribute in our own special way........we ruined so much stuff the common cars are now looked at as something special.

 

By the way GT52, Al is too polite to tell you what's in his garage. He has the best stuff pre and post war. I know of no other person in the hobby with his extensive comprehension of automobile history. I'm fortunate to call him my friend. Here we are kicking tires at Pebble Beach last year, I was hard to find a photo I could share without one of our own cars in the shot.

Edited April 25, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I would not hesitate to buy a used car from either of those two desperadoes - - but both have taken time to save me from myself which is probably even better!  

 

We are lucky to have a lot of knowledgeable collectors on this forum, it is one of the best sources of knowledge out there.

[alsancle]

Ed is the blonde.  Since I'm shy  I fortunately have my back to the camera.    I wonder what happened to that Derham 12?  I really liked that car.