Model T Differences

[Joe in Canada]

Can anyone help me out on a question. How can you tell a 1915 Ford Model T touring  body from a 1916? I owned an early T for over 20 years and the wife would never get in it for the lack of doors. So I sold it one day and have regretted it ever since. A 15 has come up but I am told they switch the 16 title to a 15 being more desirable. Every thing looks correct with the motor stamp indicates Oct. 15. but not sure of the body. It is an older restoration. Yes it is a made in USA 3 door and not Canadian 4 door.   Thanks Joe

Edited March 24, 2017 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[Brass is Best]

1915 was the last year for brass trim, and had a wood firewall. There is a great book on Model T's. "Model T Ford The Car That Changed The World" by Bruce McCalley. It has all you need to know about model changes.

[Terry Bond]

October 15 date code on the block represents the casting date, and that probably doesn't make it a 1915.  If you provide the engine serial number we can more precisely date the car for you.   An October 15 cast engine would probably have sat around for a couple of months before actually being numbered and put into a car.  By the time the engine was used, the 1916 cars were out so most likely the car is a 1916 model.  Still, the early ones were not much different than the 1915s.  

 

Most likely the car was titled as a 1915 because that's the date that was stamped on the engine.  If the car was USA made, it was probably issued a Canadian title when it came into the country, and rather than go to the trouble of checking serial numbers, the date cast on the block was easiest to use.

 

See if you can post some pictures and don't forget also to post something on the Model T Ford club discussion forums as well.  Lots of help available.

Terry

[Dandy Dave]

Can't remember all the details, But if you go to the Model T Ford club of America website they could give you the dates. There were some Brass T's built in 1916 that used up the parts in stock before the 1916's with the "New Style" radiator and shell went into production. Read about it in a MTFCA magazine years ago. Dandy Dave! 

[Joe in Canada]

The car is actually in the US going on a road trip leaving Sun. morning to have a look see 14 Hr round trip. Then if I buy it a second trip four days later to haul it home.

 I sent him an email asking for the engine serial number and casting number. I would prefer a 12 to 14 with a wood firewall.

[Joe in Canada]

He sent me this. Would have been nice if he would have sanded it first to bring it out.

[cahartley]

The numbers are there >>> http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm

[wayne sheldon]

Okay. I could write for days.

First. Fiscal year, model year, calendar year, and style year, are four different ways to call the year of any car, including a model T Ford.

Under three of those, this would be a '16. It MAY be a '15 calendar year, which would be acceptable with the HCCA.

The question seems to be "is it a real pre-'16"? A tough question to answer, even up close to the car.

 

I hate to say it, but the serial number as shown above is suspicious And here is one of those tiny details most people won't see. The serial number embossment cast into the block changed late in calendar 1915, to accommodate the larger serial numbers expected by the end of the year. For a few months both the smaller (earlier) and larger (later) embossments were cast onto blocks (this is in part because once made, molds were usually used until they either wore out or broke. Patterns for the molds were changed in anticipation of the changes and mold use overlapped). I have seen larger ones as early as November '15 castings, and I have seen smaller ones on January '16 castings. I can't be sure from the photo, but that looks like it may be the later larger one. The number as shown, would be a December '15 assembly engine. Number one million is of course very famous, and forgive me for forgetting the exact date, but I think it was December 10 1915. A friend of mine actually has a model T with the original engine serial number only a few ahead of 1,000,000. We sometimes joke that his engine could actually be in some of the famous photos of 1,000,000 on the assembly line!

One of the things that makes the number in the photo suspicious is that model T number two million was built in June of '17. 

 

Now. I don't know who this is that has the car you are looking at. I don't want to make any accusations, or disparage him in any way, without more to go on. But a lot of spring '17 engines had the "1" ground off to make the block appear to be a '15. Look closely at the embossment, is it evenly balanced? Do the edges look straight and proper for a casting?

Look closely at the casting date. Does the "5" in 15 look correct. All USA blocks those few years had casting dates (behind the water inlet) shown as mo / dt / yr . Unfortunately, spacing did vary somewhat from casting to casting, so spacing itself is not a solid clue. There also unfortunately are not many other detail differences between a LATE '15 and 1917 block. 

 

Literally, there are more than a hundred other little details to look at on the car. Many of them are minor, and could well be the result of changes and maintenance or restoration. Many of these details don't matter much to most hobbyists (things like tapered or roller wheel bearings). If one had the time, an entire book could be written about the 1915/'16 Fords.

Both 1915 and 1916 models should have the brass radiator and flat front fenders. There has been some indication that the crowned rear fenders may have shown up as early as June of '16, and been on brass radiator Fords, which were produced at least until the end of July 1916. The steel shelled Fords with rounded front fenders began early August '16, and were considered '17 models. They were often licensed as '16s due to manufacture date, or because many states did not license until years later, and they were simply described incorrectly. This resulted in misinformation being published early in the hobby days which causes confusion to this day.

 

Between 1915, and 1921, almost every piece on a model T Ford changed! Yet, I have seen several later-than '21 Ts back-dated and claimed as '15s with little more than the front fenders, side aprons, radiator, hood and former being used from a '15 or '16. The only way to protect yourself completely is to learn many of those details, and look at the combination. Or know the owner and the car.

A couple things to look at.

If a touring car? Look at the side of the body near the back of the front seat. Does it have (what is usually incorrectly called a "rivet", but is actually a carriage bolt) a head near the rear door? How near to the rear door is it? This is a tricky one, that has not even still been sorted out. It used to be believed that all '15 touring cars had this "rivet", and that its location changed as time progressed. Unfortunately, that belief has been dis-proven. Turns out, MOST '15s did have it, as did SOME '16s. The change in location was both a matter of when the body was made, and by whom the body was made. Ford did NOT build the bodies themselves at that time. There were a few (three to five) different companies supplying the bodies those two years. MAYBE all '15s had the "rivet"? Maybe not. Runabouts did not have that "rivet" holding the seat frame in place because the entire seat structure on a runabout is different than the touring car. A funny thing is that a few restorers back in the '50s and '60s did put a carriage bolt there in runabouts because they had heard all Fords had it, and they were trying to use a later body.

 

Look for a Body number or date code. Also a bit tricky. The location, and code used, varied by the body supplier, and when it was made. Most, but not all true '15s would have had a date code originally. Unless of course the wood it was on was replaced during restoration (very common problem). Often, on both runabouts and touring cars, the date code will be on the floor boards ahead of the front seat. It may be on the sloped floor board riser? Or the flat area just inside the passenger door. It may be stamped into a steel plate about four inches long (numbers about 3/4 inch tall), tacked onto the floor structure wood. Or the numbers may be stamped (or burned) directly into the wood (numbers only about 1/2 inch tall). In both runabouts and touring cars, the date code MAY also be found on the seat riser or frame, often under the seat cushion. Some have even been found under the rear seat cushion on touring cars. IF you do find the date code, it will probably be only a month (one or two digits) and year (two digits) followed by a few other numbers and maybe a letter which would indicate a body supplier and their serial number. A  "4 15 B xxxx" for instance would be an April 1915 Beaudette body. A  "10 16 xxxxx" would indicate an October of  '16 built body which likely would have been on a 1917 style/model year car. The correlation between body and engine dates is not clear yet (probably never will be). Often, engine date follows body date by anywhere from a couple weeks to two months. However, good original cars have been found where the body date was later than the engine date, as well as engine dates as much as six months later than the body. Part of the reason for the confusion, has to do with the various body suppliers and production schedules. Some bodies were ordered or delivered "finished", painting and upholstery both done. Some were "in the white" which meant not finished. They may have been painted, not upholstered, or upholstered, not painted, or even neither done. The finishing could be done by either Ford, or a third (and even fourth) company. The timing variation was often the result of what did or did not have to be done yet to the body.

 

Short list of other details to look for.

Correct early front axle, perches, spindles, wishbone, hubs?

Rear end. Radius rods were used from 1914 through 1918 style. Pinion spool the enclosed bolt type (used through 1919). Backing plates could be either smooth or ribbed. USA production would have the "high style" fill hole where both housings line up together. Canadian production would definitely have smooth backing plates (used later in Canada) but a "low fill" style hole that does NOT line up between the housings because Canadian production made that change before USA production did.

Frame have extra holes for later fenders, later firewall (a problem for a December '15 because it may actually have the later firewall bracket holes, but should also have the earlier holes and brackets), or '19 and later battery box???

If a touring car, BE CERTAIN the rear tub is the five panel style, NOT the three panel style that was not used by Ford until after 1921.I have seen several so-called '15s (and even a few '14s and a '13) that had the '20s rear body section. Another quick thing to spot, is that the '21 and earlier bodies had the upholstery tack strip (wood) outside the seat. The later bodies had the tack strip inside the seat. However, even there, won't tell you if it is a real '15 or a re-purposed '18.

Also, look over the top of the coil box lid. Is there a small notch in the bottom edge of the cowl panel, right in the center? Another unfortunately, even original '15s may have had that cowl panel changed at some time (a common problem due to rust-out around the windshield frame). But the correct '15/'16 cowl panel does not have that notch. The notch was added late in calendar '16 to accommodate the higher radiator brace rod of the steel shelled radiator. Even the earliest '17 style cars did not have the notch, and some had a notch cut in crudely at the factory. While there, you could look at the coil box lid itself. It should appear (at a glance to be one piece, with rounded corners all around the top (unlike the '17 and later lids with end pieces and sharper corners). Again, one of the more than a hundred details that changed those few years, and could have been changed at any time in the car's history.

 

The model T Ford. The ultimate icon of mass production. Fifteen million cars all alike, and no two exactly alike. (Okay, that last part is a stretch, certainly some two were exactly alike? Maybe?)

[Paul Dobbin]

I thought at some point a carriage bolt appeared in the side of the Model T Touring between the doors.  I though that was in 1916.

Is that an old wives tale?

[Joe in Canada]

7 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Okay. I could write for days.

First. Fiscal year, model year, calendar year, and style year, are four different ways to call the year of any car, including a model T Ford.

Under three of those, this would be a '16. It MAY be a '15 calendar year, which would be acceptable with the HCCA.

The question seems to be "is it a real pre-'16"? A tough question to answer, even up close to the car.

 

I hate to say it, but the serial number as shown above is suspicious And here is one of those tiny details most people won't see. The serial number embossment cast into the block changed late in calendar 1915, to accommodate the larger serial numbers expected by the end of the year. For a few months both the smaller (earlier) and larger (later) embossments were cast onto blocks (this is in part because once made, molds were usually used until they either wore out or broke. Patterns for the molds were changed in anticipation of the changes and mold use overlapped). I have seen larger ones as early as November '15 castings, and I have seen smaller ones on January '16 castings. I can't be sure from the photo, but that looks like it may be the later larger one. The number as shown, would be a December '15 assembly engine. Number one million is of course very famous, and forgive me for forgetting the exact date, but I think it was December 10 1915. A friend of mine actually has a model T with the original engine serial number only a few ahead of 1,000,000. We sometimes joke that his engine could actually be in some of the famous photos of 1,000,000 on the assembly line!

One of the things that makes the number in the photo suspicious is that model T number two million was built in June of '17. 

 

Now. I don't know who this is that has the car you are looking at. I don't want to make any accusations, or disparage him in any way, without more to go on. But a lot of spring '17 engines had the "1" ground off to make the block appear to be a '15. Look closely at the embossment, is it evenly balanced? Do the edges look straight and proper for a casting?

Look closely at the casting date. Does the "5" in 15 look correct. All USA blocks those few years had casting dates (behind the water inlet) shown as mo / dt / yr . Unfortunately, spacing did vary somewhat from casting to casting, so spacing itself is not a solid clue. There also unfortunately are not many other detail differences between a LATE '15 and 1917 block. 

 

Literally, there are more than a hundred other little details to look at on the car. Many of them are minor, and could well be the result of changes and maintenance or restoration. Many of these details don't matter much to most hobbyists (things like tapered or roller wheel bearings). If one had the time, an entire book could be written about the 1915/'16 Fords.

Both 1915 and 1916 models should have the brass radiator and flat front fenders. There has been some indication that the crowned rear fenders may have shown up as early as June of '16, and been on brass radiator Fords, which were produced at least until the end of July 1916. The steel shelled Fords with rounded front fenders began early August '16, and were considered '17 models. They were often licensed as '16s due to manufacture date, or because many states did not license until years later, and they were simply described incorrectly. This resulted in misinformation being published early in the hobby days which causes confusion to this day.

 

Between 1915, and 1921, almost every piece on a model T Ford changed! Yet, I have seen several later-than '21 Ts back-dated and claimed as '15s with little more than the front fenders, side aprons, radiator, hood and former being used from a '15 or '16. The only way to protect yourself completely is to learn many of those details, and look at the combination. Or know the owner and the car.

A couple things to look at.

If a touring car? Look at the side of the body near the back of the front seat. Does it have (what is usually incorrectly called a "rivet", but is actually a carriage bolt) a head near the rear door? How near to the rear door is it? This is a tricky one, that has not even still been sorted out. It used to be believed that all '15 touring cars had this "rivet", and that its location changed as time progressed. Unfortunately, that belief has been dis-proven. Turns out, MOST '15s did have it, as did SOME '16s. The change in location was both a matter of when the body was made, and by whom the body was made. Ford did NOT build the bodies themselves at that time. There were a few (three to five) different companies supplying the bodies those two years. MAYBE all '15s had the "rivet"? Maybe not. Runabouts did not have that "rivet" holding the seat frame in place because the entire seat structure on a runabout is different than the touring car. A funny thing is that a few restorers back in the '50s and '60s did put a carriage bolt there in runabouts because they had heard all Fords had it, and they were trying to use a later body.

 

Look for a Body number or date code. Also a bit tricky. The location, and code used, varied by the body supplier, and when it was made. Most, but not all true '15s would have had a date code originally. Unless of course the wood it was on was replaced during restoration (very common problem). Often, on both runabouts and touring cars, the date code will be on the floor boards ahead of the front seat. It may be on the sloped floor board riser? Or the flat area just inside the passenger door. It may be stamped into a steel plate about four inches long (numbers about 3/4 inch tall), tacked onto the floor structure wood. Or the numbers may be stamped (or burned) directly into the wood (numbers only about 1/2 inch tall). In both runabouts and touring cars, the date code MAY also be found on the seat riser or frame, often under the seat cushion. Some have even been found under the rear seat cushion on touring cars. IF you do find the date code, it will probably be only a month (one or two digits) and year (two digits) followed by a few other numbers and maybe a letter which would indicate a body supplier and their serial number. A  "4 15 B xxxx" for instance would be an April 1915 Beaudette body. A  "10 16 xxxxx" would indicate an October of  '16 built body which likely would have been on a 1917 style/model year car. The correlation between body and engine dates is not clear yet (probably never will be). Often, engine date follows body date by anywhere from a couple weeks to two months. However, good original cars have been found where the body date was later than the engine date, as well as engine dates as much as six months later than the body. Part of the reason for the confusion, has to do with the various body suppliers and production schedules. Some bodies were ordered or delivered "finished", painting and upholstery both done. Some were "in the white" which meant not finished. They may have been painted, not upholstered, or upholstered, not painted, or even neither done. The finishing could be done by either Ford, or a third (and even fourth) company. The timing variation was often the result of what did or did not have to be done yet to the body.

 

Short list of other details to look for.

Correct early front axle, perches, spindles, wishbone, hubs?

Rear end. Radius rods were used from 1914 through 1918 style. Pinion spool the enclosed bolt type (used through 1919). Backing plates could be either smooth or ribbed. USA production would have the "high style" fill hole where both housings line up together. Canadian production would definitely have smooth backing plates (used later in Canada) but a "low fill" style hole that does NOT line up between the housings because Canadian production made that change before USA production did.

Frame have extra holes for later fenders, later firewall (a problem for a December '15 because it may actually have the later firewall bracket holes, but should also have the earlier holes and brackets), or '19 and later battery box???

If a touring car, BE CERTAIN the rear tub is the five panel style, NOT the three panel style that was not used by Ford until after 1921.I have seen several so-called '15s (and even a few '14s and a '13) that had the '20s rear body section. Another quick thing to spot, is that the '21 and earlier bodies had the upholstery tack strip (wood) outside the seat. The later bodies had the tack strip inside the seat. However, even there, won't tell you if it is a real '15 or a re-purposed '18.

Also, look over the top of the coil box lid. Is there a small notch in the bottom edge of the cowl panel, right in the center? Another unfortunately, even original '15s may have had that cowl panel changed at some time (a common problem due to rust-out around the windshield frame). But the correct '15/'16 cowl panel does not have that notch. The notch was added late in calendar '16 to accommodate the higher radiator brace rod of the steel shelled radiator. Even the earliest '17 style cars did not have the notch, and some had a notch cut in crudely at the factory. While there, you could look at the coil box lid itself. It should appear (at a glance to be one piece, with rounded corners all around the top (unlike the '17 and later lids with end pieces and sharper corners). Again, one of the more than a hundred details that changed those few years, and could have been changed at any time in the car's history.

 

The model T Ford. The ultimate icon of mass production. Fifteen million cars all alike, and no two exactly alike. (Okay, that last part is a stretch, certainly some two were exactly alike? Maybe?)

He sent me a better pictures this time. Thanks again for the help

Edited March 25, 2017 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[oldford]

Another difference between a 15 and a 16 is that 15's had an aluminum hood and 16's had a steel hood. If it was included in the quite lengthy response above, I missed it. One other note that has always bugged me about the T collector; My opinion is that there are virtually no unmolested Model T's left. As much as some would like to have you believe that their T is all original, don't believe it. My advice to you, after owning and driving Model T's for 40 years, is to take a very close look at the car and try to determine if the car is worth the asking price and if you could see yourself happy with the car. If the answer to those two questions is 'yes', then buy it and enjoy it. No matter how much you investigate and how authentic you feel it is, there will be other Model T'ers that will find something wrong with it. You have not mentioned the price, to my knowledge, but I think it looks pretty good...

 

Frank

[F&J]

11 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Okay. I could write for days.

 

 

I'm not a T guy but this post fits right in with anybody who likes antique cars.  Interesting that people have studied these changes, to this degree.

[Terry Bond]

It's a nice looking car in the photos. Of course there are a few items that stand out to me as not authentic, and I note it has an aftermarket transmission fitted - can't tell if it's a Ruxtell or perhaps a Warford. That horn mounted on the driver side is not Model T, and someone has jazzed it up a bit with a natural wood finish steering wheel rather than the correct black painted one.  Aftermarket water pump fitted and I'm curious about that fat red wire strung up on the firewall (which should be painted black). I'm sure some of the other T guys watching could find some other items of concern, but it does have the correct wheels and I like the aftermarket spare tires.   May we ask how much money is involved?  Of course if you've done some homework you'll be able to come up with a pretty good idea.   OldFord is right-there are darned few of them that are 100%, and it all depends on what you intend to do with it.  If you are going for awards there is one set of criteria you'll want to look at, but like has been said before, if it's what you've been looking for and it runs well, buy it and enjoy.   

 

This weekend has been pretty nice here and the local Model T club had a mini-tech session at a members home where we learned how to check clearances on bearings and how to deal with some common problems.  There was a good turnout and among the group was a fairly new member who had recently acquired a 1915 T and had been anxious to talk with other T guys to diagnose some problems.   He got a lot of good advice and now knows how to proceed to make the car run great so he can enjoy it.  That's the beauty of having a T - there is a great support network. 

Terry

[John_S_in_Penna]

14 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

... But a lot of spring '17 engines had the "1" ground off to make the block appear to be a '15.

 

... I have seen several later-than '21 Ts back-dated and claimed as '15s...

 

A very thorough description of the differences, Wayne!

However, considering everything that has happened in a

century of automotive history, the pre-1916 cut-off date by

one club is wholly arbitrary.  Isn't it absurd that some owners

then feel they must go to all the lengths described, bending over

backwards, sometimes even cheating---just to make their car

appear to fit that one selected date.

Edited March 26, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Joe in Canada]

Terry he is asking $12,000. and I do not think he is out of line on his price. We are having freezing rain and tonight and tomorrow so I will have more time to think about it. I prefer to have a correct car than being questioned about it.

[1937hd45]

1 hour ago, Joe in Canada said:

Terry he is asking $12,000. and I do not think he is out of line on his price. We are having freezing rain and tonight and tomorrow so I will have more time to think about it. I prefer to have a correct car than being questioned about it.

That will wind up in Europe at that price. Bob

[cahartley]

6 hours ago, F&J said:

 

 

I'm not a T guy but this post fits right in with anybody who likes antique cars.  Interesting that people have studied these changes, to this degree.

 

Without doubt there has been no other automobile that has been studied as thoroughly as the Model T and even at that questions still remain.

I had the pleasure of meeting Russ Furstnow, who is without doubt one of THE Model T authorities, as he bought the car I was helping a local sell, a 1912 Model T he had inherited from his father.

He wasn't sure what he wanted to with it as he had never driven one so I offered my '19 as a test car for him.

Interestingly he is a pilot as well as another friend of mine who had driving a Model T on his bucket list which I fulfilled for him with this same car.

The funniest part is I got the exact, same, reaction from both of them once they were in the driver seat......TERROR........ 

I laugh every time I think of it including now as I type this....... 

 

[wayne sheldon]

If I had the time? (Right now I do not.) I could write for another day or two just responding to comments added by others. 

Thank you John S in P  and  Terry B, F & J, Oldford, Joe in C, and Paul D for your positive comments! (And anybody else that slips in while I try to write between interruptions!)

Joe in C, From what I can see in the photos, it does look like a very nice car! 

The fact is, I don't know if there is any 100 percent correct 1915 T anywhere. For that matter, I am not sure there is any 100 percent correct model T anywhere! Personally, I think some people get way to crazy over this stuff. On the other hand, a lot of really bad restorations have been done in the past seventy years, and it cannot be a bad thing to slowly correct some of those errors. I have had two '13s, and two different '15s in the past myself. The main reason I have tried to learn as much about these as I have, is simply that I have always tried to make my cars better and more correct than they were. But, I have never tried to make my car perfect. The sad fact is, I cannot afford to even try to. 

Always difficult to tell from just a few pictures, but the car looks fairly correct.  The hand Klaxon and spare tires are after-market accessories. The Ruckstell rear end is a desirable accessory, and although not era correct for a brass T (not manufactured until after WWI), is generally accepted by most in the HCCA. In all likelihood, most of the rear end is not 1915 correct, but that is not a real problem. It is something one could change if one wanted to.

The more full view of the serial number does look better. It does indeed look like the earlier embossment, and a legitimate number. But I still recommend looking closely in person.

Standard Ford production included brass rimmed headlamps and side/tail lamps well into July '15, when the black-painted steel rims were brought out. Even some of the late brass rims were painted black. By August, practically all cars leaving the Ford factory had black rimmed lamps. One of the mistakes made by the hobby back in the '50s and '60s, was to think that "all '15s" had brass rimmed lamps. The HCCA (not all but many) decided that a '15 T had to have brass rimmed lamps to qualify and participate in tours. So, many early '16s (as well as later '16s and '17s etc etc) had the rims changed to brass. Most people wanting to back-date any T model into a '15 would either change the rims to brass, or even just paint them brass. Fortunately, it is not that way today. Any T from July '15 until pre-January '16 is welcome with black rims on the lamps.

If you do buy this car? It is your choice whether to leave them brass? Or change them to black?

 

 

John S i P, Yeah, that arbitrary cutoff is a tough one. And the truth is, it has been hard-fought for a long time. It is easy to sit in our armchairs and see what was done wrong by others fifty years ago. This I KNOW because I do it myself. However, as I look back, and remember the debates and discussions I have heard and sometimes been a part of? I also see how it became to be. There are many people in the HCCA still today that believe the wrong cutoff was chosen (frankly, I think they are probably right), Many of them think the cutoff should have been a year or even several years earlier. Then again, many people think the club should attract more members by opening up to later cars I do NOT agree with that myself!).

The club originally had a loose notion of being "pre-'15". However, the rules, such as they were, were not generally enforced in the 1950s. Late '10s and even '20s cars were on many tours along with the really early cars. I was too young, and not part of the club yet, but I have heard many of the stories. Many members were unhappy with the situation, and every few years, some arguing would break out about it. Little by little, the rules were refined. Only to be argued about again a few years later. The national club gave the regional groups the right to set boundaries appropriate for their local membership. Some regional groups are strict pre-'16 (the one I belong to is, and I like it that way!). Many allow other cutoffs for cars on local tours. '28, '32, '42, all all common choices. Some have official rules, but do not seriously enforce them. Some clubs set different rules for different tours.

Participation on national HCCA tours is limited to "pre-January 1st 1916 built automobiles and motorcycles". I won't say the rule is never broken, but it isn't broken much anymore. As I said, that rule was hard fought for. After the '50s, the argument was whether the "pre-'15" was 1915 "inclusive", or "exclusive". The problem was, by that time, a large percentage of the cars being taken on major tours were 1915 cars. You really couldn't tell that many people that all of a sudden, their car wasn't old enough. So it became pre-'15 1915 inclusive. Then there were the battles over model year versus calendar year. This was even worse. Automobile producers were just as bad then about bringing next year's model out early. Then as now, marketing was in charge. And two of the four largest producers of automobile chose 1915 to be the year they really messed up

Ford, the largest producer, never gave a clear break between 1915 models, and 1916 models. Fiscal year was August 1st. Some literature said model year was sometime in September. Some references said it was sometime in October. The brass trimmed lamps ended mid July, the aluminum hood and hogshead changes to steel both overlapped for several months later in the year, and a dozen other minor changes happened whenever Ford got around to them.

Studebaker (number four depending on the list you check, which varied between model year lists or calendar year lists) and Hudson (so I have been told by several '15/'16 Hudson owners) started building their '16 models about May of 1915. How do you justify telling an owner of a June or July 1915 built Studebaker or Hudson that he cannot go on the tour, but there are a thousand Fords built after his car that do qualify? It took years to get enough people to accept the "pre-January 1st built" compromise. It is not perfect. Many cars cannot be dated that precisely. So an estimate must be accepted. Not everybody is happy about it. But it is working, and I hope they continue to keep it that way.

The AACA is wonderful!! But, however you define it, or draw the lines, the first couple decades of the automobile, need to have a special club for them. I think the HCCA is, and should remain, that club. And I think they should keep the rule the way it is. Warts and all.  That is MY opinion, and is not expressed here with any intention of offending anyone. Just trying to clarify a situation.

 

 

Here it is, about six hours later, and I am about to finish this, done or not. Told you I was going to get interrupted a lot, the story of my life. I see there have been a few more replies added hours ago. I see the photo of the Kelsey, and cahartley, as well as Joe i C again.

I don't know, Joe. If that '15 is nearly as nice in person as it appears in the photos you added, the price looks (shall we say?) not bad. I hate to ever even suggest buying a car without looking it over. It may be mostly right, or mostly wrong. Just no way to know without looking it over. And hidden condition is maybe even more important. How it runs, how it drives, how well the doors close, is the front seat solid? Rust out, wood rot? These things are important. As picky as some people in the HCCA are (I have been accused of that myself more than a few times, but I don't think I am too bad)? Cars are rarely picked to pieces unless they are really bad. That car looks nice enough, and I see enough that is correct, that I doubt you would run into much trouble from picky club members. It looks like a nice car to enjoy and tour with (provided it runs well enough?). And ANY antique car purchase is a gamble that way. (If I really wanted to keep going, I could write a page about a good friend of mine and the Pierce Arrow he paid top dollar for!) Besides, anything on a model T can be fixed.

Good luck!

Drive carefully, and do enjoy! W2

[1937hd45]

8 hours ago, cahartley said:

 

Without doubt there has been no other automobile that has been studied as thoroughly as the Model T and even at that questions still remain.

I had the pleasure of meeting Russ Furstnow, who is without doubt one of THE Model T authorities, as he bought the car I was helping a local sell, a 1912 Model T he had inherited from his father.

He wasn't sure what he wanted to with it as he had never driven one so I offered my '19 as a test car for him.

Interestingly he is a pilot as well as another friend of mine who had driving a Model T on his bucket list which I fulfilled for him with this same car.

The funniest part is I got the exact, same, reaction from both of them once they were in the driver seat......TERROR........ 

I laugh every time I think of it including now as I type this....... 

 

I let my 4 year old grandson drive my 1912 T in low gear, no fear or terror, just an ear to ear smile. Bob

[R W Burgess]

On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 2:47 PM, Joe in Canada said:

He sent me a better pictures this time. Thanks again for the help

Looks very nice!

[Joe in Canada]

On ‎26‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 0:23 AM, 1937hd45 said:

That will wind up in Europe at that price. Bob

Well Bob I guarantee at the present it is not going to Europe. I have to thank you all for your comments, support and information helping me out on a decision.  I guess I will be the only guy around my area  with a USA made three door touring. Restored years ago and all the sheet metal looks original and wood is excellent as well as the door fits. The interior is very nice with new tires an radiator but paint will do for now. Was inherited by the grandson who sold it to me I believe. Tired from the  drive yesterday but well worth the drive seeing he was negotiable. Hope to have it home within a couple of weeks and take the grand kids for a ride.

                  Thanks Again .......  Joe

Edited March 27, 2017 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Joe in Canada!

It sounds as though congratulations are in order! I hope you and your wife have many years of enjoyment with that car!

 

(I hope this posted okay?) I seem to be having some trouble signing in. Maybe  I overloaded the system with my long posts before?)

[Terry Bond]

Congratulations Joe, I'm sure you'll have a load of fun with it. 

Terry

[Rrdoubleday]

Congrats Joe! Shucks, I was hoping to sell you my Maxwell this summer ?

[Joe in Canada]

1 hour ago, Rrdoubleday said:

Congrats Joe! Shucks, I was hoping to sell you my Maxwell this summer ?

Is that the 13 we were haggling over past Sept. That would make a nice car when all done. I was looking for parts it needed to see the availability and did find a motor for it out west. I also found another touring in the mid west that was already sold. But I do not know where it went so that would make three 13s of that model. Nice hearing from you and hope you are enjoying the wormer climate at your new location.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)