69 GTO Restoration Costs

[69 GTO]

Thanks Mercer09. I would have been happy with a ballpark estimate that was genuine (not a lowball for the sake of starting). It would have been a deciding factor as I wanted to invest $25K for the body, which I'm sure with more investigation, I could have found. Now I'm in and there's little I can do about it (I'm sure the shop realizes that). To me, it's a bit of a one way street. Shops say, we don't know what we don't know so it's T&M. All you have is the hourly rate to go by which means nothing. Once you are 40% of the way like mine is, you get the full picture and it's time to inquire as to whether this is fair. I didn't want the situation this way, the industry puts themselves in this. I have some friends that restored vehicles for a range of costs (18-50K) but that was mostly on condition and add-ons like the drivetrain, frame, etc. My car was really clean and the shop put it in the top 10 out of over 300 restorations. One would assume a less costly restoration but I'm not sure seeing it's going to fall over $40K. Believe me, I did a lot of research on the process and industry but in the end, had to pick the shop without knowing the level of quality and any cost estimation.

[69 GTO]

Hi Janousek, I'm not asking for the shop to provide firm and binding estimates. The kitchen remodeler provides estimates and if they open the wall and it's gone due to termites, they aren't going to pay for it, the customer will. But let's be honest, the shops I spoke to don't want to provide any transparency... so I can only wonder why. Is it to take on whatever work they can to keep utilization rates high? not sure but the temptation is there. There's no risk on their part, they only benefit. I see no downside to the shop, only to the unsuspecting customer. If the industry wants better relationships (and there's room to improve), then they should use their expertise to provide as much clarity and information up front and most definitely after the blasting.

[alsancle]

The problem inherent in every restoration is that there are too many variables:

 

1.  The actual but hidden condition of the car.

 

2.  Which parts will need to be replaced after diss-assembly.

 

3.  The customer's expectations.

 

4.  The restoration shop's abilities.

 

5.  Availability/competence of outside sub contractors (chrome, upholstery, etc)

 

6.  Other projects in the shop.

 

7.  Availability of parts.

 

8.  Shop's experience with the exact make and model of the car.

 

Any shop that gives you a firm price has to factor in enough extra to make sure they don't lose money and if necessary will have to cut corners.  If they don't they won't be in business for long.

 

I have plenty of experience on both sides of this equation. The bottom line is that restoring a car is a dumb financial decision in almost every situation.  Every time I do it I swear I will never do it again but inevitably fall in to the same trap.   Just the nature of the hobby.

[69 GTO]

No need for firm price in this case. Ballpark would work as most experienced shops have past data and working knowledge to know the ballpark. But it serves no purpose to provide the info if its not a standard (no one does it) and it will lead to less business. I'm sure my shop knew this would be 35K+ when I walked in the door, there's been no issues and it came out of blasting at 95% straight, complete and original. I'm not looking for perfection in estimation nor firm/binding cost but any transparency would reduce the issues in the industry between the customer and the shops.  

Edited August 25, 2016 by 69 GTO (see edit history)

[poci1957]

2 hours ago, Janousek said:

I still cringe when I send the bills out.  To be honest it's a tough living but enjoyable.  

 

I also would probably broom your car from my shop if I was busting my butt on it and you were on the net wondering if I was ripping you off.   I'd tell you to have the internet finish the car.  I thought I'd throw that out there as car owners need us just as much as the shop need customers.  Relationships are built during this process so treat each other with respect.   

 

It can be tough on both sides, the relationship is more complex than the average customer-tradesman, probably most like an architect/builder/client relationship in a years-long project with stresses, delays and cost.  Plus there is the emotion that Janousek points out where the old car is a discretionary purchase that a regular guy with extra savings or a 401K cannot spend without sweating about it.  

 

A while back I observed that auto restoration shops had a little disconnect in that the cost of their service is a high price for most people BUT the shop owner or restorer never seem to be making a fat living.  It does not help that lots of guys good at working on cars are not so good at sympathetic communication, and also that, as alsancle points out, the money spent is not a good "investment" but just a big cost.  I can totally appreciate both perspectives and I guess the positive here is that at least 69GTO is getting quality work for his money rather than poor work that STILL costs big money, Todd C

 

 

[Guest GT52]

25 minutes ago, 69 GTO said:

No need for firm price in this case. Ballpark would work as most experienced shops have past data and working knowledge to know the ballpark. But it serves no purpose to provide the info if its not a standard (no one does it) and it will lead to less business. I'm sure my shop knew this would be 35K+ when I walked in the door, there's been no issues and it came out of blasting at 95% straight, complete and original. I'm not looking for perfection in estimation nor firm/binding cost but any transparency would reduce the issues in the industry between the customer and the shops.  

You're not being unreasonable.  Perhaps if the car were a triple black RA IV Judge convertible numbers matching from bumper to bumper top to bottom and you were planning on trailering it to car shows for 5 years this discussion wouldn't be appropriate.   However, if the shop knew that you were looking at completing a $35K car for driving, and hid behind "time and materials" all the while knowing that they were looking at a minimum $35K paint job, then I stand by my assessment that you probably are being screwed.  Don't tell me that they are that qualified in the business and don't know what they're looking at...within 10-20% maybe.

 

Not that there's much that you can really do about it at this point, and the shop knows that.  You could pull the car, but no other shop is going to take it and guarantee their work without having done the prep.  Lesson learned...may as well be happy with good quality work and move on.

[Restorer32]

They did give you a firm price... $85/hr. In our case we sell our expertise, experience and patience by the hour. The customer is free to buy as many hours as he wants. If he buys enough hours to complete the restoration that's fine and we hate to see a projet leave unfinished. If the customer decides that he isn' t comfortable with the amount of work we get done in an hour he is free to leave. We pay our employees by the hour, we have to charge by the hour. The problem with "ball park" estimates is that they tend to get cast in stone, at least in the customer's mind. About 20% of the cars we have in the shop at any one time come out of other shops that gave a customer a price then couldn't finish the job for the agreed price. It appears that you knew going in that the shop worked t/m only. If you now think you aren't getting your money's worth then take the car elsewhere.

[69 GTO]

Agree with all the feedback, thanks. It's not a cash flow situation but use vs. cost. It's a driver and will never be more. It's not numbers matching nor a frame off top to bottom. I won't move it out because this is only going to open up a whole host of other issues that isn't worth the headache. I disagree with Restorer32 that the firm price of $85 per hour is enough. All experienced shops know the range but they withhold it because they can. If they provided a minimum cost or ballpark, they would likely lose work, especially if they are a shop doing concourse work. This shop should have been upfront knowing it's not a rare model nor fully restored car. I believe - not providing a non-binding ballpark is an excuse for taking on work at any cost - if the customer leaves you have no negatives, if they stay and finish, you have the work. Again, the deck does not favor or even tilt to the customer. Restorer32 is stating more of the actual owner attitude and why my question came up in the first place. He's confirmed the reasons why, "he is free to leave" basically confirming little accountability on the owner. The notion that most like me will pull their car is false, the ramifications are obvious to even the novice. Try and find a shop to take on someone else's work. It's not a normal outcome, a few calls will verify this. Thus, most will suck it up and pay the bill and unfortunately may never restore another car. This is self induced wound by the owners, only hurting their own industry. If there was reasonable transparency, I would be at the correct shop doing the $25K of body/paint and would likely do another restoration down the road. Unfortunately, this is an all too typical scenario.  

[Guest GT52]

37 minutes ago, 69 GTO said:

...It's not a cash flow situation but use vs. cost. It's a driver and will never be more. It's not numbers matching nor a frame off top to bottom. I won't move it out because this is only going to open up a whole host of other issues that isn't worth the headache. I disagree with Restorer32 that the firm price of $85 per hour is enough. All experienced shops know the range but they withhold it because they can. If they provided a minimum cost or ballpark, they would likely lose work, especially if they are a shop doing concourse work. This shop should have been upfront knowing it's not a rare model nor fully restored car...  

Exactly.  How hard is it to provide a ballpark estimate with the caveat of " if we run in to x, or y, or z, there will be additional charges"?

 

I've built a few custom homes, and have been mildly burned a few times by "time and material" subcontractors.  Most often, I had no problem with the quality of the work, only with their representation of what to expect.  I've never argued with them during the job, and I've never withheld payment at the end of the job...it tends to run counter to your best interests.  I can assure you though that those subcontractors have lost more money, by how they treated me, than they made by their less-than-honest representations.  Any chance I get, I have steered work away from them, and will continue to do so.   

[vermontboy]

You could almost equate this to renovating a house. How many of the projects on This Old House do you think came in at or under the money?  Those guys are still in business - and when the project is done it is done correctly. I'm sure that they have a heart to heart with the owners and find out what is going to happen if there is a significant overrun. Ending up holding a lien instead of cash is not in anyone's best interest.

 

What would you have done if they said that they thought it might be in the $30 to $35K range but that unforeseen difficulties might make the figure closer to $50K? Would you have been any better off in making a decision? That is exactly why an honest shop doesn't give out ballpark estimates. It really doesn't help in the decision making process.

 

If you've done a lot of do it yourself car repairs how many times have you started a 2 hour project and ended spending 4,6, or 8 hours on it because of one rusty bolt, one broken part, or damaging something else that must now be repaired.

 

 

 

 

[Janousek]

I'm sorry for your situation.  My xxxxx figure I would have remedied this.  I would have been able to feel how serious you were and if we could do business.   I wouldn't have been able to help you at 25k and the car never would have made it to my shop.  I do every job to my liking or I don't do the job.  Cheap materials or skimping on details is the only way to achieve a cheaper price and I don't need to do that.  

 

With your current attitude against restorers I would send you packing.  I have a skill set that you aren't comfortable paying for and very quick to label restorers as crooks.  We are providing you with a service that few people can do.   Those of us that care bend over backwards on every job to make sure everyone is happy.  Some people will never be happy even if the job is free.  

 

Best advice I can give for your next restoration is buy some equipment and paint it yourself.  Lots of us in here willing to help with information. 

[60FlatTop]

Buying 40 hours of invoiced and itemized work at a time is a pretty good way to go. I kind of work with my accountant that way. Working with an automotive shop on a long term project it is hard to pay them every week, I can have the money ready but the invoice lags behind.

Give me an itemized bill for 40 hours a week at $85/hr and I'll have the 3400 for you. Well, um, gee we didn't, and the list goes on. I have found it really hard to pay when I used a shop.

But if it could work that way, three weeks into the job and you are unsatisfied, home we go.

 

My personal rule of thumb is 50% labor, 50% materials. Four full days on a panel? There are ten major panels- 40 full days labor for the car  + $27,200 + materials @ $27,200. $54,400. That's the guide. Put it on a spreadsheet and normalize it to the job and you will have a fairly predictable outcome. I'd shoot that figure to you up front.

 

I just sold an Austin-Healey Sprite early this week, a full project. The guy started guessing prices. I told him "You are looking at 200 $100 jobs. I usually say 300 jobs, but this is  a small one."

 

Cars, buildings, power plants. The math always works out.

Bernie

[Guest fossiltin62]

We have a saying in our shop that we use to describe what almost all people who are unable to do their own work see in a "restored" car. We say "It's not what it is, it's what it looks like". This explains the many "restored" cars we see that do not run right or do not run at all. We are presently doing chassis rebuilding on two cars that were brought to us. Both are beautiful and expensive (over $100.000) "restorations" but neither ran well enough to be used. Now we are expected to rebuild the chassis on these without messing up the "what you see" part of the restoration. It was explained to both owners that we would only do the best we could do to save what was done by others, they would be responsible for what had to be redone. Not restoring the chassis is not restoring the car, it's just fixing it up. We do not do that kind of work, and tell those that ask for that kind of work to take it elsewhere.

Generally in this shop a complete restoration to new will cost the owner just about what John S above said, roughly $100,000 t0 $200,000, and can be considerably more depending upon what we have to start with, and sometimes that's not a lot. What I just printed is what I tell those who need a "guesstimate", on a job. I might add we do not lack for work.

 Good luck with the GTO!

[Xander Wildeisen]

Am I understanding this correct? That people are charging 200K to restore a Sprite? And that people are paying 200K for the restoration on a Sprite? And that there are no wealthy car shop owners? 

[alsancle]

I know 1/2 a dozen car restorers pretty well,  guys that are doing high end cars for Pebble Beach and none of them are wealthy in the least.  There is a difference between putting perfect paint on a hot rod and you have complete latitude to pick your parts and materials versus trying to reproduce something perfectly with no deviation from 80 years ago.   The restorer has a much harder task than the hot rod guy.

[padgett]

This may be why resto-mods are getting so popular.

[60FlatTop]

I mentioned the Sprite. 200 $100 jobs comes out to $20,000 in my neighborhood. That's a guy just "fixing up" his own car.

Bernie

[Restorer32]

On 8/24/2016 at 3:24 PM, alsancle said:

You can drive a car all day long with a 40k paint job.  It will hold up fine if you take care of it.

 

I think that if you haven't worked in a shop you don't realize how important reputation is.   The comment that once the car is gone every project is represented the same way on a show field is quite correct.  If you see something sub-standard done by a shop, you never know that they were forced to do it.

 

If there is one thing that irritates me, and I am a pretty laid back guy, it is someone who can't do what I can do telling me how much it should cost to do what I do. Walk a mile in a restorer's shoes...There is the amount of time the owner thinks a job should take and there is the amount of time I think it should take and there is the amount of time the job actually takes. We charge for the time the job actually takes. That's the only way we can stay in business.

[padgett]

Think part of the problem is expectations. I watch a number of Velocity shows on DVR and the difference between Overhauling and Wheeler Dealers is amazing. I cringe at some of the undercarriages I see on the latter. OTOH Dan Short is all about structure and safety. I admire that. Suspect if I wanted someone to go through the Judge, there might be a road trip to Norfolk in store.

 

That said my Judge is a toy. If I ever wanted a show car it would be the '88 Reatta which I consider a landmark car rather than the Judge which is a collection of off-the-shelf parts and decals. Since a toy, a $20k refresh would be more in line with its purpose than a $100,000 restoration. Besides a number of the original parts do not fit my driving in this century.

[Xander Wildeisen]

You are right when you say restoration costs can out weigh cost on the custom side. And when building/restoring cars for your high end shows, costs will add up very fast taking projects to the highest level. But some things are the same, a bumper on a 35 Cadillac will cost the same to re-chrome if the car is restored or a street rod. A new windshield will be the same. Weatherstripping, glass, chrome,fuel lines,brake lines, tires, and wiring for the most part, should be all about the same. If you have a door from a 36 ford, and a door from a 34 Packard. And they both just need to be repainted. Is one going to be more then the other? (not talking about wood structure) Does a 31 Auburn front bumper cost more to re-chrome, then a 36 ford bumper, just because it is for a Auburn? I am not knocking the skill level of shops, or in any way questioning the work that goes into these cars. And love seeing the talent on both sides, when you look at these cars done to a high level. You can buy new gauges for a street rod for $500, But you can spend $3000+ restoring your original gauges. You can mill out a dash bezel for a street rod in 30 minutes. You can spend days restoring a original one. I have great respect for the restoration side, the skills required go far beyond some of the custom stuff. That is why in other posts I have stated that this side of the car world should get some of these restored classics in front of the custom side. All I am saying, as are other people in this topic. If shops have a blank check to work with, and you get wrapped up in a shop that does not look out for the customers best interest. It really hurts all of us. If a shop around here over charges a customer, does poor work. And does not finish the project, or finishes it with poor quality. All of us suffer, because now you have a owner who has a bitter feeling about the "hobby/industry", or one less car driving around and going to shows. I think we all can agree that on both sides we see shops that send out the door work that is not to the level it should be for what the customer paid. I have seen a ton of great projects moth balled because owners got hook up with bad shops. This is a very hard job to do, it is not up to me how nice a customers car turns out. It is up to them on what level they want to take the car to. Honesty is very important in what we do, and just like in most things honesty seems to be fading. Sorry for the confusion on Sprite restoration costs.   

[69 GTO]

Absolutely I would have been better off. If the shop informed me the minimum I was looking at was 30-35K with a possibility of up to 50K I would have kept searching for a shop that did not do concourse work. With this type of ballpark numbers, you can easily assess that it's a very high quality job and not all shops provide that level of detail/quality. It's a driver with limited restoration, so what good does it do to have a 40-50K paintjob. it's overkill and renders it less than a driver for fear of accident/damage. Plus, their ballparks would set some accountability on the shops to be somewhat realistic in their assessment, something that does not exist today. If they run significantly over in price without justifiable cause (unforeseen issues), then the ballpark was bogus and the customer will know this and can properly rate the shop. Then everyone will have some information prior to making a decision. I do projects that run more time than expected but if I had completed over 200 of them, I would have enough experience and empirical data to assume issues and cover that time that in my estimate.

[Xander Wildeisen]

Paint is the toughest one. When it is done, if you see a flaw you say what is up with that? You do get what you pay fore with body and paint work. But yes, shops should say we do top notch stuff, and you could pay XXX. So then the customer has to make a choice. What level do I want to take the paint work to? 

[Restorer32]

On 8/24/2016 at 3:24 PM, alsancle said:

You can drive a car all day long with a 40k paint job.  It will hold up fine if you take care of it.

 

I think that if you haven't worked in a shop you don't realize how important reputation is.   The comment that once the car is gone every project is represented the same way on a show field is quite correct.  If you see something sub-standard done by a shop, you never know that they were forced to do it.

 

So apparently you chose this shop because of their reputation for quality and now you are complaining about the cost. I suspect if you had chosen a shop on the basis of price you would be complaining about the quality. What you are really looking for is high quality work at a low price. Good luck with that.

[69 GTO]

I apologize if my questions or comments offended the shop owners on this forum but I stand by the principal that if a customer is willing to pay reasonable money ($25K) to paint a clean and almost totally rust free vehicle, then there should be some reasonable estimation. If the shop is doing concourse work and that figure will not work in that particular shop, then it's important the shop be transparent to the customer. Some of the responses here are lacking any consideration of the customer "If there is one thing that irritates me, and I am a pretty laid back guy, it is someone who can't do what I can do telling me how much it should cost to do what I do", "I have a skill set that you aren't comfortable paying for and very quick to label restorers as crooks". No one labeled anyone "crooks" but these comments indicate that shops can do better with regard to their customers, especially with having a frank discussion on expectations. There are different levels of quality, which translates directly to cost and all I'm saying is that why take on a customer with expectation X when you know you will only provide Y? It's only going to lead to questions, which based on some of the restorers responses here, are not dealt with kindly.

[69 GTO]

All shops proposed high quality, so there was no benchmark. Restorer32, put yourself in the shoes of the customer. The only way to judge the quality is with a reasonable ballpark estimate (with caveats for the unforeseen). The $25K shop will not provide the same level of detail/quality as one estimating $50K. I'm sure with all your vast experience, you know the minimum cost of a job when you do the full evaluation (which the customer pays for). 

[alsancle]

I can clearly see both sides of the problem.    From the customer's perspective, he is basically told "you have to trust us" from the shop.  On the shop's side they have no idea what they are dealing with until well in to the project.  It is a tough for everybody.   If you don't have a lot of experience and a long term relationship with a shop the whole thing can be very scary.   I have had the same guys working on my cars for the last 35 years and I completely trust them.  In HS & College I worked in a restoration shop so I feel like I know a bit about the business.  I will walk in to the shop every other day when I have a project going and I'm still shocked how long everything takes.   Must be I'm a slow learner.

 

Sometimes I look at cars coming in and feel that somebody should be talking sense to the owner that they are wasting their money.  But if the shop owner did that how long would they be in business?

[Guest BillP]

Getting to the nub of it, when this car is done and in your garage with its beautiful but pricey paint job; if you look at it and love it, great. If you look at it with resentment and regret, sell it and move on. You will have gained experience more valuable than a paint job.

[JustDave]

ive been in the body shop for many many years ive done genera collision,resto work and show quality cars ,people dont always understand what it takes to do a quality job,on quality cars i would never use polyester primer unless it was a fiberglass car,i dont know what brand of paint hes using but for quality in so calif we always think b.a.s.f   brand it used to be called glasurit now i believe its called onyx its probably one of the best,on show type quality paint jobs we use same manufacturer start to finish incl primer,if theres a paint failure they wont warranty different  products,another thing you said they charged 34 hours on the qtr panel,it only pays 16 hours to install a new qtr,     dave

[69 GTO]

There will be no regret as there isn't anything that can be done to change the situation other then pull the car which puts me out the 38K already invested (10K for car, 12K in parts, 16K for the initial body work). It's a live and learn situation that I believe has room for improvement on both sides. I wish it were acceptable to have a discussion with shop owners (prior to contracting) on cost expectations without being considered nickel and diming, questioning their honesty, etc.. It not a matter of cheapness but only the amount I am willing to invest. This one will turn out to be 60-65K driver, which I would not have done initially. I have the $$ but I limit my investments to ensure I am comfortable with it. As a said earlier, I'm driving this car and with 45K on the paint/exterior, it's going to be tough to take the dings in stride. :-)

[benjamin j]

Whether you’re in the restoring business or the sceptic tank business an estimate or quote is your word. Your reputation will be built upon how you treat people. If you tell them 25k for a job that ends up being 40k you as a business owner did something wrong. If you told the customer up front there could be unforeseen circumstances like a giant bolder in the area where the septic tank will be and that will add to the price then you did your part. A restorer that does not know about how long it will take to straighten a body on a GTO is a business to stay away from. If a customer goes into a project sceptic tank or restoring a car without having a good estimate first then shame on them. I live in ohio and we have a law that protects people who have a written quote most states have this law it should be used.  

[trimacar]

Some random thoughts.

 

I worked at a well known restoration shop.  At one point we kidded about cars coming in for restoration being "peanuts".  They may look OK on the outside, but it's not until you open them up that you know whether it's rotten or not.

 

A couple of friends and I have kicked around lately that "not much gets done in one hour".

 

Besides labor costs, health and other benefits, mortgage, electricity, insurance, and all the other fun things that a restoration shop owner has to pay, don't forget legal fees.  I've seen numerous cases of shops pulled into court, even if the customer willingly paid right along, and an owner has to spend money fighting a law suit even if everything is on his side.

 

Paying a restoration shop for any task is not for the faint of heart.  You can play around on your old car for 8 hours and it's more or less free, minus any parts or emergency room visits.  At $80 and hour, that's $640 worth of a restoration shop working....

[alsancle]

It is pretty simple math,  when a full blow restoration is going with a dedicated resource on the project you are looking at 4k plus a week.  I was talking to a friend about about an early 30s Conv Coupe on a high end chassis.  A rare car (maybe 3 or 4 known).  This car was a complete solid project to begin with and a very active member of the club had a nut and bolt restoration done by a very good shop.  Car is beautiful and they show it everywhere.  Restoration was over 500k and the car is probably worth 250k.  That doesn't include the acquisition cost.  This is not atypical.

Edited August 29, 2016 by alsancle (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

I've been watching this thread from the beginning. I'm sorry to be brutally honest here, but the OP apparently didn't do any due diligence to educate himself about the effort (and thus cost) to do the work he wanted before turning the car over to a shop.  I figure that starting with a totally straight and rust-free car, a quality paint job will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $10K-$15K.  I do all my own work and it costs me between $1000 and $2000 just for materials.  Labor is about 90% of the cost of a paint job, so do the math.  That doesn't include new weatherstripping, new chrome, new grilles, new lenses, or any mechanical work.  Here's a very interesting article by Hot Rod about putting a quality paint job on a 1978 Camaro.  They estimated 400 hours of work.  At $50 an hour, that's $20K JUST FOR LABOR! 

 

As noted above, people who have never done this work themselves tend to believe the BS on (un)reality TV.  I enjoy watching Wheeler Dealer, but when they add up costs to calculate profit, they cleverly leave out labor, travel, shop rental, consumables, utilities, insurance, etc, etc.  Every one of those cars is underwater by at least a factor of two when true costs are considered.

[mike6024]

How to Spray a Perfect Paint Job (or As Close To Perfect As Possible)

Edited August 29, 2016 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[69 GTO]

17 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

I've been watching this thread from the beginning. I'm sorry to be brutally honest here, but the OP apparently didn't do any due diligence to educate himself about the effort (and thus cost) to do the work he wanted before turning the car over to a shop.  I figure that starting with a totally straight and rust-free car, a quality paint job will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $10K

Although there is always room to improve, I differ somewhat with your opinion based on two factors: first the job that was requested had no parts involved. I supplied every nut and bolt, bumper, weather stripping, grill, chrome and trim for the job. The only materials are paint, primer and sealer. Second is the level of quality which directly impacts the cost. The shop would not indicate they were doing concourse work and was reluctant to offer a ball-park or even state if the 25K budget was reasonable. None of the 5 shops I interviewed would provide this detail. Maybe 25K was unreasonable for a solid/decent paint job but that hasn't been conclusive from this forum. I still believe that some shops would have been able to do the body and reassemble for close to the 25K. This job will likely fall around 45-50K, with no mechanical work, no parts purchased, etc. Since I spent 12K alone on just the parts, I would assume the shop mark up would bring this total close to 75K. Mechanical work or frame off would have added another 15K easily. Again, it was meant to be a driver, as I stated this to the shop numerous times (and it's obvious from the lack of a full restoration).

 

Any ideas on whether 25K is reasonable for a paint job?   

[joe_padavano]

2 minutes ago, 69 GTO said:

Although there is always room to improve, I differ somewhat with your opinion based on two factors: first the job that was requested had no parts involved. I supplied every nut and bolt, bumper, weather stripping, grill, chrome and trim for the job. The only materials are paint, primer and sealer. Second is the level of quality which directly impacts the cost. The shop would not indicate they were doing concourse work and was reluctant to offer a ball-park or even state if the 25K budget was reasonable. None of the 5 shops I interviewed would provide this detail. Maybe 25K was unreasonable for a solid/decent paint job but that hasn't been conclusive from this forum. I still believe that some shops would have been able to do the body and reassemble for close to the 25K. This job will likely fall around 45-50K, with no mechanical work, no parts purchased, etc. Since I spent 12K alone on just the parts, I would assume the shop mark up would bring this total close to 75K. Mechanical work or frame off would have added another 15K easily. Again, it was meant to be a driver, as I stated this to the shop numerous times (and it's obvious from the lack of a full restoration).

 

Any ideas on whether 25K is reasonable for a paint job?   

 

As I pointed out in  my previous post, I would not be surprised at a $20K or more bill for a quality paint job.  It all depends on the local shop rate, the actual condition of the car (which I guarantee is worse than you think it is), and the overhead rates.  The problem is, you can't simply tell a shop to do a half-fast job.  You either get Maaco and crash-repair shop quality or you get high-end resto quality.  The only ways for a shop to make any money is to either get the car done as fast as humanly possible or to take the time for a high quality job and charge accordingly.  The middle ground you are looking for will be a money loser for most shops, thus there is no interest in those jobs. Frankly, I suspect that most car owners who would pay for such a middle-grade job would likely complain loudly at the results.  Until you've done paint and body yourself, you really have no appreciation for the amount of work it takes.

 

Again, $15K-20K is for paint-only, no parts.  Understand that there is a lot of labor (trim removal, panel removal and realignment, masking, etc) as well as consumables (solvents, sandpaper, masking supplies) and a factor for disassembly issues (broken trim clips, stripped out screws, etc). You may think this is just a scuff and shoot paint job, but it isn't. I don't know if this shop spent the time to guide coat and block sand the car, but for that price I would assume so.

[Restorer32]

You have stated repeatedly that you only want a "driver quality" paint job. Please tell us what you would accept as "driver quality" in contrast to "concours quality".  Less shine to the paint? Less careful bodywork? Less careful masking? Dust in the paint? In your mind how exactly does a "driver quality" paint job differ from a "concours quality" paint job ? Seriously, what less than perfect details would you be ok with?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[69 GTO]

The shop put the car in the top 10 condition (out of over 250 restos), so I did not assume the condition, I was initially prepared for the worse. Your point is simply that a shop does the level of work (quality) they are comfortable with and the customer shouldn't expect them to do a half-fast job. I agree with this but the problem is there are various levels of quality and detail, this is known only by the shop. If they don't provide any details, ball-parks or rationalize the customer's budget, then the customer winds up in my situation (way over budget). Not all shops do the same level of work, if this is true, then how does a customer determine the correct level for their budget. This can't be corrected solely by the customer through due-diligence as the shop is the only partner privy to their process, quality etc. My point is that most shops can and should provide a reasonable ball-park with caveats (for the unforeseen). Every true craftsman has the skill and experience to do this and it's done in most industries. It need not be a binding estimate but it will provide the detail for a customer to make an informed decision. This situation can't be solved by the customer alone.

[Restorer32]

Did you speak to any previous customers of the shop? Did you tell the shop you didn't want to spend more than $15k or whatever you thought the cost should be and see what their reaction was? If the shop had told you "No, we're sorry but we don't think we can do the job for the price you want" would you have looked for another shop? Did you check out the reputation of the shop and if their reputation was for fantastic quality why did you take your car to them hoping for lesser quality work at a lower price ? A "reasonable ballpark" that doesn't have to be "binding" is worthless isn't it? Who determines if the ballpark is "reasonable" ? You have just proven what I said many posts ago. Any ballpark becomes fixed in the customer's mind as a binding price.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest GT52]

1 hour ago, 69 GTO said:

Any ideas on whether 25K is reasonable for a paint job?   

Assuming the details you have given, yes it is.