69 GTO Restoration Costs

[69 GTO]

I'm currently restoring an 69 GTO. The shop works on T&M only. The car was clean (3 small rust spots less than 3" and no big dents (only some small dings, creases.) The car is all metal, all original. The disassembly cost 5,500, the media blasting and primer/sealer cost 5,000 and the first stage of block sanding / straightening (right quarter,  roof, and partial left quarter) cost 5,500. I was not expecting to be 16K in at this stage with another 21+ left on the job and I'm not sure if this is reasonable/customary. For example, the straightening and block sanding of the right quarter alone (very straight to begin with 5-7 high/low spots/dings) was billed at 34 hours. The filler was put on in small sections (1'x2' or smaller) and done 3-5 times over. 40K to complete a very clean car with paint/reassembly (no frame off) seems high to me. This will put me in at 60K when I'm done (cost of car and parts). I did no mechanical work at all (the drivetrain was solid). The shop is supplying no parts, I purchased all moldings, interior, trim, weather stripping, glass, chrome, stainless, grills, bumpers, etc.). This job is frame on, body only to paint. Does 38-42K seem reasonable for this type of job.   

[plymouthcranbrook]

Not to me but as I am so old that I remember when a dollar was worth a nickle maybe I am not the right one to say. Still, remember that no restoration I have ever heard of made money(maybe some really rich guy selling to another really rich guy). You need to decide what the car is worth to you and if you can stand some imperfection. If you can't whether they are out of line or not, it will cost a lot.  I used to be in a car club with a guy who spent over $100.000 to restore a 1956 Plymouth Belevidere convertible that probably wouldn't bring $40,000 from a generous buyer. But it was worth it to him as he and his wife made their whole world revolve around that car. Shows, tours what have you. All their friends  were car people and a lot of the family as well. So only you can decide if spending that much is worth it or not.

Edited August 24, 2016 by plymouthcranbrook (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Regardless of the car, restoration costs blow away the value eventually.  Without seeing exactly what they are doing it is hard to tell you if this is a bad deal or not.  For a dead nuts concours level paint you are going to spend a lot of money.  Paint & materials alone will be 5 to 7k.   Hopefully you are restoring a 4 speed convertible and all in at 60k is not too out of line for a really nice car.

[alsancle]

Btw, my HS/College car was a 69 GTO convertible that we did the engine, all body work, paint, top, chrome, etc and I had about 2k all in.

[69 GTO]

Thank you. It's an automatic, not a convertible. The car will have a value of 35K upon completion. The shop looks to be doing concourse work and no complaints with the quality. It's just that the body work alone (filler, block sanding, priming, small amount of patching) will come to over 20K. That seems high on a straight, all metal car.  

[padgett]

If T&M you should be getting a detailed statement of exactly what was done, particularly $5.5k for disassembly.

[Frantz]

It can add up quick. If you saw 3" of rust, it may well need cut back in quite a bit farther to get good metal. Big dents aren't always hard to get out than small dings, that's why if you ever watch the demo guys at car shows they never show how easy it is to fix a small ding, but rather a big hit. If they are really doing top tier quality then it adds up quickly. Did you not discuses cost with them prior to starting? It sounds like you have a really nice car and you just wanted a driver out of it (no motor work no chassis work). I would inquire about the completion cost for the project and determine what you want out of the car. See if they can take any shortcuts that go inline with what you're looking for. IMO it doesn't make sense to have a concourse level quality body if you're not doing the motor and chassis, but you may already be in it that deep. Might not hurt to find out how much doing the rest of the car right would cost, you can always get a few point judged awards for it too. Maybe find someone willing to pay too much, there always are a few folks out there just looking for the car that catches their eye. Tell em its not for sale and see how high they offer. Good luck, and I hope to see the car completed!

[Restorer32]

"See if they can take any shortcuts". The bane of every restoration shop doing Concourse quality work. A customer may ask if you can take any shortcuts but you can bet your last $ that when he takes the car to a show he won't point out that shortcuts were taken at his request but he WILL proudly say what shop did the work. Without knowing the hourly rate you are paying it is impossible to comment on whether you are getting your money's worth. In our experience virtually every customer says they "only want a driver" but they almost universally have the car registered for a show before it's finished.

[Frantz]

3 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

"See if they can take any shortcuts". The bane of every restoration shop doing Concourse quality work. A customer may ask if you can take any shortcuts but you can bet your last $ that when he takes the car to a show he won't point out that shortcuts were taken at his request but he WILL proudly say what shop did the work. Without knowing the hourly rate you are paying it is impossible to comment on whether you are getting your money's worth. In our experience virtually every customer says they "only want a driver" but they almost universally have the car registered for a show before it's finished.

I agree with you 100%. I made my comments specifically for this gentleman's concerns. He's already taking short cuts by ignoring the motor and chassis. As a 33 year old judge (my age, not the number of years I've judged, or even judging credits I've earned), I put my knees to work and I see it fairly often. Clean chassis, but not restored. You see it on the motors too, often they are at least cleaned up on old restorations/survivors. I think the shop also should have been clear on what they were doing, and the vehicle owner should have better inquired. I don't own a shop myself, but I sell new cars and sometimes folks want custom work done, or even buy a conversion van. I understand people want a $40k job for $20k, not because they are cheap, but because they haven't fully grasped that a $40k job cost $40k when you put all the money and reasonable profit motives into it.

[69 GTO]

Thanks for the reply's. The car was always a driver and I conveyed that to the shop. The rate is $85 per hour (all labor). I'm just doing interior and exterior, did not disassemble the dash or remove the headliner (they were okay, not perfect but good for a driver). The shop gave me one option, eliminate the polyester primer (2K) but the rest of the work will be close to concourse. They would not quote or even estimate - I asked. I found no shops that would. At this stage (after 35% block sanded) they estimate 20K+ for the remaining work but I believe that's low considering paint ($7-9K) and everything has to be fitted back. I'm in at $16K now. My biggest concern was the 34 hours of filling on one quarter panel which was visibly straight (maybe 2 small dings after blasting - although there's always highs and lows). The cost of that quarter was over $3K to ready for paint. The shop told me my car was in the top 10% of those returning from the blasting. Little metal, straight, no plastic/all metal, etc. Then the block sanding started and it did not make sense to me. What is a car in the bottom 25% going to cost (80-90K)? 

[69 GTO]

I do receive detailed invoices and pics for all work but that doesn't answer my question. I had one expert suggest that it's possible they are working on 2 cars simultaneously on the same process (block sanding), which may explain why the sections worked on are so small (back and forth during dry time, etc.) But I don't know. I have no experience with this (first restoration) and no shop estimates work, so you don't know the ones that do good work at an efficient pace vs the ones that do concourse (or are not fair in their practice). I just figured body only on a solid project car could get done for $25K. I have no intention of showing the car and I've told the shop this. It's evident in the undercarriage and drive train (all work and are clean but are not being touched).  

[Guest GT52]

If you told the shop that the car is to be a driver and you have no intentions of showing it, I think you're being screwed...a show paint job after some typical road rash is no longer a show paint job, and that was just money wasted.  In fact, at the dollars you quoted, and the original condition you quoted, I think you might be being screwed even if you told them this was to be a trailered show car.  How much of you being screwed is faulty communication, and how much is something worse, I wouldn't venture a guess.  It's also hard to get out of a situation when you're in the middle of it.  With what you describe, you are going to be upside down by a monster amount of dollars.

Edited August 24, 2016 by GT52
clarification (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

The only ride that you should go on, is the one when you are driving your car. It would be foolish and unwise of me to comment on the post not knowing all of the facts. But the numbers you have given do not really jive with the stated work. Shop rates, cost of products, level of quality and productivity all play a part in your total cost. I am surprised to here the cost difference in paint materials. Around here you can get a quality line of fillers, primers, paints and clears for around $1,600-2,200. Unless you are stepping up in to high end paint,pearls,metallic and so on. New colors can be costly, the cost of restoration has gotten very expensive. And most cars end finish value do not reflect the invested cost. Here is a link to a page on my web site. (still working on the web site) I am trying to do a page on a few topics to help people understand the cost involved in building/restoring cars.    http://www.wildironccc.com/expected-costs--planning-a-budget.html   

[rocketraider]

Stop and consider the car you have. A 69 GTO is considered a "big money" car by many people and the idea is that owner of such a car is willing to pay inflated prices to get the best work, since it of course will go to Barrett-Jackson and be sold for half a million. Seen it many times.

 

Your location figures in too. If a restoration shop is in a high-rent district with a flashy new building and the latest equipment, someone has to pay for all that.

 

Time and materials is the only realistic way to price a restoration job, but as has been said, ask for DETAILED statement of time spent and materials cost.

[69 GTO]

This shop typically focus' on older antiques from 20's to 50's, so it's not a muscle car restoration shop. This may lend to the quality of work. The quality looks really good, just difficult to drive a car regularly with a 40K+ paint job. They provide detailed statements that come with pics but this doesn't indicate productivity or working on 2 cars at once (which was suggested by another expert).  

[Restorer32]

It is unfair of you to take your car to a shop known for quality paint work and ask them to cut corners because you only want a driver. What aspects of the work do you want them to skimp on? Are you willing to settle for orange peel in the paint? Are you ok if the body work is visible under the paint? Are you ok if they use materials that might fail in 5 years? Should the painter close one eye when he sprays your car?  It's a simple concept but many fail to understand that if you pay for less than perfect then some aspects of the job will be less than perfect when finished. What "less than perfect" aspects of the resto are you willing to live with? There are really only 2 ways to cut costs on such a job. Either use lesser quality materials or skimp on the body work.

[alsancle]

You can drive a car all day long with a 40k paint job.  It will hold up fine if you take care of it.

 

I think that if you haven't worked in a shop you don't realize how important reputation is.   The comment that once the car is gone every project is represented the same way on a show field is quite correct.  If you see something sub-standard done by a shop, you never know that they were forced to do it.

[Digger914]

2 hours ago, 69 GTO said:

 For example, the straightening and block sanding of the right quarter alone (very straight to begin with 5-7 high/low spots/dings) was billed at 34 hours. The filler was put on in small sections (1'x2' or smaller) and done 3-5 times over.

 

5 minutes ago, 69 GTO said:

Thanks for the reply's. The car was always a driver and I conveyed that to the shop. The rate is $85 per hour (all labor). I'm just doing interior and exterior, did not disassemble the dash or remove the headliner (they were okay, not perfect but good for a driver). The shop gave me one option, eliminate the polyester primer (2K) but the rest of the work will be close to concourse. They would not quote or even estimate - I asked. I found no shops that would. At this stage (after 35% block sanded) they estimate 20K+ for the remaining work but I believe that's low considering paint ($7-9K) and everything has to be fitted back. I'm in at $16K now. My biggest concern was the 34 hours of filling on one quarter panel which was visibly straight (maybe 2 small dings after blasting - although there's always highs and lows). The cost of that quarter was over $3K to ready for paint. The shop told me my car was in the top 10% of those returning from the blasting. Little metal, straight, no plastic/all metal, etc. Then the block sanding started and it did not make sense to me. What is a car in the bottom 25% going to cost (80-90K)? 

 

Can't say anything about the price as shop rates vary around the country and you do need to consider the quality of the craftsman. Can tell you that the secret to a great paint job is all in the prep work. If you want a really shinny paint job that doesn't wave at people when you drive by, it needs to be laid on a smooth surface and even brand new steel isn't smooth.  

At 34 hours for one quarter panel that looked straight to start with, except for a couple of dings, this panel would be beat to smooth, low spots filled and filled again because that's the way filler works, it heats and expands some when you sand it and shrinks some when it cools, not enough to see, but enough to feel. This will show when it's shinny and when a serious prep job is done, it looks better that brand new steel fresh from the factory. It would have been filled, dusted with primer and smoothed to smooth several times over, then the whole panel smeared with glazing compound and sanded smooth again. Blasting, beating, filling, smoothing and priming could easily be 34 hours. If you didn't get that, or didn't want that, you could be getting sthupped.

First car I did, I had done and when all was said and done, I was only a couple times several thousand dollars upside down.  Last car I did, I did most of this work myself and except for the hundreds of hours of time, I got my investment back when the day came to sell. Sometimes you get sthupped, sometimes you sthup yourself, either way it's usually a valuable learning experience. Most times it's the motivation you need, to learn what you should know, before you sign on the dotted line.

 

[69 GTO]

Thanks, it makes sense. I guess what was missing was to understand some level of investment and the type/quality of work a shop does. They all aren't equal and if a customer wants a driver/decent job at the 25K mark, there's no way to know where to go. I spoke to 4 shops, all would not estimate at all (T&M period), so it's a guessing game and I guessed good/bad. Good that the shop is high quality and bad that it blows my budget away. The shop should provide a level of quality/typical cost and in my opinion they can provide a solid estimate on disassembly/blasting. Once it's blasted, they should be able to estimate the work/cost from that point forward. It's naked at that point and if they've been around long enough, they know what's involved from that point forward. All of the shops refused to provide any ballpark estimates which leaves the customer blindly choosing. I chose high in this case, which is a learning exercise I'm okay with. Question: would it be better to pull the car and look for another shop that isn't concourse quality or keep it in the current shop and possibly eclipse 40-45K for the body? Keep in mind I purchased all trim, reconditioned chrome, etc. for 12K and the car cost 8K, so leaving it in the current shop would bring the total cost to 60-65K for body and interior (not all interior) only.  

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, GT52 said:

If you told the shop that the car is to be a driver and you have no intentions of showing it, I think you're being screwed...

 

Please think twice before advising someone that he's 

being cheated.  Cheating is fraud.  An hourly rate of $85

might be good in some urban areas, though around me

there are a number of top-notch shops working at $50.

 

The many award-winning restoration shops around me

all work on a time-and-material basis, because they don't know 

the extent of the work needed until every last component is apart.

And the ones I know will NOT make compromises, or do lesser-quality

work for a car just to be a "driver," or be rushed.  Whatever amount

of work an owner wants them to do, the shops do nothing but

high-quality work.

 

And the original poster must know that TOTAL restorations

are in the $100,000 to $200,000 range.

 

In a world of short cuts and low-quality products, let's be glad

that car restorers have the professionalism to work to a high standard.  

[Matt Harwood]

There's really no way to know if the shop is cheating him, but I would suspect that they are not. I'm not a restorer by trade, but I work closely with several shops and by and large, they're trustworthy guys who agonize over what things cost and know they can't charge their customers for every single item they do. My favorite mechanic rebuilt the transmission on my '29 Cadillac and while it was expensive, it was still less than he had in it because, as he told me, "I can't charge you for the time it took me to figure out how to do it."

 

I bet my shop is not unique in that regard and it's probably the rare restoration shop that just sets the clock spinning and sends a bill based on time and time alone. This is why most "concours" restorations are only 90% done--that last 10% costs a lot of money but doesn't really give tangible results. Trailer queens run poorly, have buggy electrical systems, and don't feel right going down the road because the owner and the shop couldn't figure out a way to pay for that work. The owner sees a running, driving car and figures he's done paying for stuff. The shop knows it's not done, but they also know the owner is fed up and doesn't want to spend more money. So they make it run well enough to get on and off the trailer and it can still win awards at the highest levels. Few clubs test for roadworthiness.

 

Anyway, this is a digression from the topic, but I want to illustrate the restoration is not for the weak of constitution or thin of wallet. The shop is probably doing the work they're saying they're doing, and maybe even some extra. An hour of work is an hour of work, and it's $85. Just a week's worth of one guy working adds up to $3500 or so, never mind if there are two guys working. Or three. It's easy to see how the figures add up quickly, even on things that seem pretty mundane like disassembly. Think of how long it takes you to disassemble a brake assembly when you're doing a routine brake job. Now imagine you're working on someone else's ancient car with irreplaceable parts (OK, not in a GTO's case, but you know what I mean). It takes time to be careful, to tag the parts, and to make sure everything is there when you need to put it back together.

 

Restorer32 is a professional and his thoughts about cost-cutting are the most instructive I've ever read. Everyone wants a discount, everyone wants it cheaper, everyone says they're willing to sacrifice quality, but what does that sacrifice in quality look like? And if he does indeed sacrifice quality, are you, the owner, going to call him on it when the car is done? Whatever that sacrifice looks like, you're going to see it and be unhappy with it, and you're still going to spend a big pile of money, so you're going to expect high quality, not built-in flaws. It's righteously unfair to ask him to do substandard work to save money because he's the only one with something to lose in that situation.

 

I doubt you're getting screwed, but you're paying a top-quality shop for top-quality work. In the end, I think quality is worth the price, but I'm in a distinct minority in that regard. Only you can decide if you've got the financial resources to see this project through to the end at these shop rates. But I do think you'll get what you pay for and will be happy with the results.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Mr. 69 GTO, where are you located?

As others have stated, the labor rates vary

from one part of the country to another.

The New York City metropolitan area,

and southern California, for example, are

probably more than in Gopher Junction, Kansas.

Edited August 24, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[69 GTO]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

I doubt you're getting screwed, but you're paying a top-quality shop for top-quality work. In the end, I think quality is worth the price, but I'm in a distinct minority in that regard. Only you can decide if you've got the financial resources to see this project through to the end at these shop rates. But I do think you'll get what you pay for and will be happy with the results.

This makes sense. I know they are doing concourse work (i didn't at the time I booked them) and I have no complaints about the quality. Just wanted to know if it's reasonable considering the straight and solid condition of the car going in (shop stated top 10 in condition). Scary to think if it were the bottom 50.... My only complaint is that shops vary in process and ultimately cost. The customer should have some indication on the differences to make a more informed decision. I can go to the store and buy a $200 dishwasher or a $2,000 dishwasher. In this industry it's not a known variable. If it were, maybe the final outcomes and cust sat would be better. Bad restos are historic and most because of cost (both sides are to blame). Again, in my opinion, the disassembly and blasting should be easy to estimate. Then when it's back from blasting, the body work, paint and reassembly should be easy to estimate. My shop has done over 300 restos, that's enough data to know where it stands but for some reason there's a reluctance to be transparent (even with the worse case). This is their mistake, it would reduce unhappy customers. From the customer side, I need to be more informed. I tried, did lots of researcher, spoke to 5-8 shops and read everything i could on it and in the end, figured it would be 25K for a solid paint job on a straight (top 10) project car. I still don't think that is unreasonable. My mistake was I went to a shop that does concourse work which increases the cost 75% (it will wind up over $40K) and since I'm driving this car, it will only stress me out when someone lets the shopping cart go and it dings the concourse body. There's learning on both sides here but I do think shops should be more transparent. No other industry that I know of let's a customer go into any project or service on a blank check, there's always some estimation, some transparency. I think it would benefit the resto industry to develop that discipline but... they may lose work once ball parks are remotely transparent.   

[Xander Wildeisen]

Here is a picture taken straight into a door on a street rod that I built. I did not do the paint work, The guy that did is one of the best in this area. This is a black car, and is a show quality job. This is what you had better get for the numbers you are throwing around. And those numbers are high for this part of the country. 

[69 GTO]

It looks to be this type of quality. He's using the polyester primer, all metal, days of work on each panel to straighten. I'm confident it will be a very good body, just overkill for a driver. Thanks for sharing.

[60FlatTop]

I always remember a good friend and customer I had back in the 1990's. He thought my estimate for replacing the door rubbers on his 1941 Cadillac 62 was high so I told him he could help and I would deduct $20 per hour for his efforts on the job. He started with me about 8 AM removing the old from the right side. I took the left. About 9 AM he came to me soaked with sweat and asked if I would give him a ride home. Well it's just a wave of the hand isn't it?

 

Don't forget, any legal business has a 40% partner in the tax man plus his buddy the code man. At the end of the week your money buys one bag of groceries for the body guy and a second one for the likes of those jokers who have been hogging TV time until November.

 

Old cars for toys is a hobby of the rich.

Bernie

[Frantz]

Another thought that I'm sure I'm not the only one to have an experience with. It's far better to pay too much for a good job, than to have someone underbid then put you on the back burner. I'm waiting on 8 years to get my 68 Javelin back from a friends shop. I told him it wasn't enough when he made the bid. 8 Years ago was just before the recession where they almost lost everything. Again, friends of mine, and they keep paying me off in various favors, but I gave em the car when it was 40, I'd like it back before it's 50. I have another friend who waited 14 years to get his GTO back from a similar situation. Paying em enough to be worth while keeps you on track.

[69 GTO]

That makes sense Frantz, I appreciate that experience and agree that it's better to pay for high quality then expect high quality and get something less. I just need to come to terms with what I thought was a 25K job will be 40k+.

[Xander Wildeisen]

What part of the country do you live in 69 GTO?

[69 GTO]

Northeast in the metro area, so the cost for rent, labor, etc. is some of the highest. To chrome a bumper here is 1,500. it's steep.

[alsancle]

Are you around Boston?   Yes, it is very very expensive here.  If this is a car you will keep for the rest of your life or has some personal sentimental value then don't sweat it t.  I'm assuming of course that you can afford it.

[JZRIV]

Many outstanding comments on this topic. Usually complaints about body shops come in the form of taking 10 times longer than promised, losing parts, and poor quality workmanship. I always cringed at shops that provide a firm quote for body restoration and paint. Its setting the shop and customer up for failure and disappointment. Just not practical when quality is at stake. Too many variables in a labor intensive overall job no matter how experienced they are.

 

One cost that stands out as being possibly too high is the media blasting and primer for $5000. At $85/hr that's 64 hours assuming they are recycling the media.

I paid $2200 to have a bigger car than a GTO done with epoxy primer. This included every body panel, full body shell inside, out, and underneath. Guessing since yours is not body off maybe they didn't go to that extent. It would be interesting to understand why it took so many hours. Maybe they outsourced it and charged middle-man fees? Maybe they had inferior blasting equipment that took many more hours than it should have?

A professional blaster should be able to do that in 12-16 hours. Then say 6 hours to blow and vacuum media out of all the crevices (a job few blasters take the time to do properly) then another 8 hours to prep and primer it + materials.

 

Besides preparing yourself for higher than expected cost, prepare yourself for ending up with a car so nice and expensive you are afraid to drive it.

 

 

 

[edinmass]

All the numbers here sound low to me. I have never met a restoration shop owner who was wealthy, and most don't even own cars that they commonly work on. 1500 to plate a bumper is NOT a lot of money today, and real show chrome would be MUCH higher. I have been in the hobby all my life, its only getting more expensive to do things right. Its impossible to restore a car and come out ahead, even if you start with a decent car that was given to you. Try an early thirties Classic......... on a 90 point car you would expect to spend from 300 to 600 grand on a rather simple car. Get one of the crazy over the top engine/chassis combo and it will be more. I saw a 500K restoration at Pebble Beach on Sunday and it didn't even place in class.........on a world class automobile. Playing on  the big show fields are NOT for working folks anymore. There is good news, if you search long and hard, and do your homework, a reasonable price on almost any car can be found, just don't be in a hurry. I always have my head on a swivel looking for interesting cars at a good "for me" price. I seem to find one every three or four years. Enjoy the hobby, drive your car, and forget about the money you have put in it, not everything in life is about making a profit. The time I spent with my long passed father at Hershey and on tour are still fondly remembered 25 years later, and I wouldn't trade the memories for the entire contents of Fort Knox. Share your cars with others........ and they will bring you returns beyond money/ My best to all...... Ed

Edited August 27, 2016 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JACK M]

I've always found that the sting of the high price of quality goes away quicker than disappointment of a low quality cheap job.

[69 GTO]

Thanks for all the great feedback. Yes, I have to come to terms with the real cost but I'm confident I have the correct shop when you factor quality and precision. I did not want to buy a restored car even though I could do so for a lot less money. I wanted the experience of bringing the vehicle to what I want and to simply drive it (it drives awesome already). I'll slow the pace of the restoration to make it fit my budget. It may take another 12 months but I know I will be getting a vehicle that I will not have to touch for 20 years (aside from typical maintenance).

[69 GTO]

Right on Jack M. It's the more acceptable option.

[Janousek]

I'm glad your adjusting to the cost.  Your not being ripped off if it's a reputable shop and they doing top notch work.   Restoration is expensive and with you being a newbie your one of the worst kind of customers for a shop.  Newbies and guys paying from their 401K's.   

 

 I still cringe when I send the bills out.  Don't get me wrong, I like getting paid but you can just visualize the owners response when I drop the envelope in the mail.  Everything just ads up.  At the end of the month I eat a lot of materials that I don't feel I can bill for.   Running the paint booth in the winter and electricity for the compressors all ad up.  To be honest it's a tough living but enjoyable.  This business is a lifestyle.  Everything evolves around it.... Vacations and weekends end up being car shows.     

 

I also would probably broom your car from my shop if I was busting my butt on it and you were on the net wondering if I was ripping you off.   I'd tell you to have the internet finish the car.  I thought I'd throw that out there as car owners need us just as much as the shop need customers.  Relationships are built during this process so treat each other with respect.   

 

[69 GTO]

Thanks Janousek but as a customer, I believe my questions are reasonable considering there is little to no transparency on the timing, quality, cost involved in the process. As I stated earlier, no other industry operates with a blank check, so questions are fair game. In my opinion, there is no reason a shop cannot estimate the disassembly and blasting and then once blasted, estimate the bodywork, paint and interior. Heck, they can probably run a magnet over the car and in under 3 hours of evaluation provide a reasonable estimate (they don't need exact, just caveat the estimate). This is the work they do/know, their the experts and I'm sure they know to a degree of certainty (+/- 15%) where the job will fall. They had no issues estimating the condition in relation to their prior jobs (top 10%). I have not engaged the shop in this dialogue (it's kinda sad I could not for fear of being "broomed out". This is why I reached out to the forum but I should be able to question them without "brooming my car from their shop". This means it's a one directional relationship and the customer should just shut up and stomach the cost/results. We're talking 40K+ and I would hardly believe any home remodeler would ever take that position. "Newbies" support the industry, likely at a higher rate than repeats, so they are a large part of the market. You can easily find lots of bad relationships in this industry and its an outcome from both sides - but for me, a little transparency (are you sure you want a concourse finish on a driver, this project will be over 35K, etc.) Also, let's not assume that all shops are honest and fair. like any industry, you have bad operators. Respect goes both ways and without the customer and newbies, the shop fails.

Edited August 25, 2016 by 69 GTO (see edit history)

[mercer09]

 

I also would probably broom your car from my shop if I was busting my butt on it and you were on the net wondering if I was ripping you off.   I'd tell you to have the internet finish the car.  I thought I'd throw that out there as car owners need us just as much as the shop need customers.  Relationships are built during this process so treat each other with respect.

 

I agree with GTO on this- if you have never experienced these costs, they can be daunting. GTO obviously doesnt have limitless resources, as most of us dont and I never sensed a lack of respect on his part-

He is concerned and I would be as well.............

 

after reading this thread yesterday-I couldnt get this situation out of my mind. Pretty tough when you are not given a cost up front and not many vocations charge in this manner. When you need a new toilet installed in your house, do you just say- charge me whatever? The plumber says- the bill is 12000. I did a perfect job, so why are you questioning me?

[Janousek]

Sounds like you should open your own shop and show us how it's done.  It's super easy and the money just pours in.  

 

  You never know.  Some cars fall apart and some need every bolt torched.  Same with reassembly, some fall into place and some don't.  I'm glad to be out of the muscle car scene but try assembling a car with all aftermarket parts that need massaging to fit.  Every piece will need some kind of manipulating.  I'm talking sheet metal, interior, trim, weatherstrips, it all doesn't fit.  If a shop is to estimate all of this then your car will be thrown together at the end due to time restraints and the shop losing money at the end.  Then nobody is happy with the job.  Car owner or shop owner.  I think good shops have developed time and materials to allow them to do the best job possible without losing money.  Would you go to work everyday wondering how much your paycheck might be short because the boss decides your worth less that week.?   We can only charge once.  A lot can happen in a restoration and during the job a lot can go wrong that comes right out of pocket.  

 

I wouldn't have given an estimate before work started but I would have verbally said it will be around XXXXX from past jobs.  This number will see if the customer is serious or not.  I'm being a little hard on you to show you both sides of the fence.