Gearbox Lubtricant

[DavidAU]

Does anyone know what this grade of gear oil would be for a 1920's gearbox or can suggest what would be a suitable replacement?  I have tried Google and cannot find anything.

 

The lubricant for the gearbox should be black gear oil and soft grease mixed or Ambroleum. It is necessary to examine the gearbox about every 1,000 miles to ascertain if the lubricant is to the correct level which should just cover the layshaft gears.

[maok]

I use Penrite T250. It is very heavy, almost like a warm honey.

 

It does need to warm up before the box stops crunching. ie. driving a few hundred metres.

[falconriley]

I have Penrite Gear Box Oil 30 in my Riley Nine crash box, mainly because I also use it in the preslector of my 12/4 Riley.

Matthew

[DavidMc]

I use Penrite T250, anything thinner and it is difficult to engage 1st gear when starting.

[Friartuck]

Here in the States some of us use 600W Steam oil. Available from Mobil Oil.

https://www.grainger.com/product/MOBIL-600-W-Super-4DNJ6

 

 

[Mark Shaw]

I use SAE 250 WT in rear ends and crash box transmissions.

[tcslr]

Look at Lubriplate.  They offer a portfolio of mineral oils.  SPOS277 is a 140 weight oil that is OPK with yellow metals.

[Matt Harwood]

16 hours ago, DavidMc said:

I use Penrite T250, anything thinner and it is difficult to engage 1st gear when starting.

 

In what kind of car? I put 85W90 in my '41 Buick transmission and rear end recently (manual says 90 weight) but I have a hell of a time getting it into first or reverse when it's warm and both the transmission and rear end are a bit noisier than I think they should be. Is 90W from 1941 equivalent to 90W today, or maybe I should try something thicker?

 

Anyone have any thoughts? I have to admit that I don't know much about lubricants. Thanks!

[DavidMc]

I don't claim to have any expertise regarding lubricants however I have found that lighter oils such as 90 in the transmission of my 1920's Packards do not stop the gears from spinning as well as 250   The 250 makes it easier to engage low gear from a start.  Adjusting the clutch to fully release does not completely overcome the problem so there must be a slight drag from the clutch .  The problem is worse when the car is on a slope. I have discussed this with Penrite and they recommended the T250.

[Cordguy]

Morris Golden Film AG250, about half the price of Penrite here in New Zealand, and is available in 5 litres. British company, so don't know if available in US though.

[Spinneyhill]

Just a note about oils. The "600W" specification above is a miss-mash of specifications. The W usually refers to low temperature viscosity under the SAE nomenclature system. The 600 refers to a viscosity under an unstated superseded measuring scale. If it was the Saybolt Furol Sec. system, it was the max. of the SAE 160 range and the min. of the SAE 250 range.

 

Gearbox oils usually have EP additives. Some EP additives include a sulphur formulation, which can be harmful to alloys containing copper. Some gearboxes have bronze bushes, e.g. in the lay gear and later boxes may have bronze baulking (synchronising) rings. ASTM D130 is the Copper Strip Corrosion test and determines if the EP additives attack copper. http://my.umbc.edu/system/shared/attachments/844c3c081c71db64385f821329ea07a2/57da1345/group-documents/000/001/952/4dea382d82666332fb564f2e711cbc71/coppercorrosion.pdf?1334852745

 

Obtain the MSDS of your proposed gear oil and look for the ASTM D130 test result. It should be 1a. 1b is OK at a pinch. If it is not given, look for another oil!

[C Carl]

On August 21, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Matt Harwood said:

 

In what kind of car? I put 85W90 in my '41 Buick transmission and rear end recently (manual says 90 weight) but I have a hell of a time getting it into first or reverse when it's warm and both the transmission and rear end are a bit noisier than I think they should be. Is 90W from 1941 equivalent to 90W today, or maybe I should try something thicker?

 

Anyone have any thoughts? I have to admit that I don't know much about lubricants. Thanks!

 

Yes , Matt , 90 is 90 , noise , of course can be worn internals. Try going to a multi grade synthetic gear lube like 85-90/140. Always heed well Dr. Spinneyhills advice. He is a well trained and thorough researcher. Old gear jammers trick on synchronized transmissions : when selecting unsynchronized first or reverse , first place gearshift in a synchronized gear , and then quickly drop into first or reverse. Try it. For frustrated crashbox owners without a clutch brake , one technique in certain situations is to select reverse before a quick change to first. Still will grind into reverse , but you are using the relatively lesser used reverse gear faces sacrificially. There is more , but it is late , and I have to drive home and sleep. I am driving a 7 speed automatic this time.  -  Good night , Carl

[Spinneyhill]

There is a possibility those suggesting "600W" lubricant are in fact suggesting a product name. Mobil market their "Super Cylinder Oil" with that name.

http://www.mobil.com/english-EG/Industrial/pds/GLEGMobil-600-W-Super-Cylinder-Oil

 

It is ISO 460 grade and falls in the middle of the SAE 140 viscosity range. According to the web site...

"Mobil 600W Super Cylinder Oil is recommended for the following applications:

• Splash-lubricated enclosed worm gear sets operating at moderate to high speeds and temperatures.
• Steam cylinders, couplings, bearings, and the break-in of compressor cylinders."

These conditions are not much like inside an automotive gearbox or differential so this stuff is not appropriate.

 

I agree with Carl. A multigrade synthetic gear lube of 85-90W/140 would be very good. Just check the MSDS for the Copper Strip Corrosion Test results if in doubt about whether there are any copper alloys where you want to use it.

[maok]

What are your thoughts on the Penrite T250?

 

Penrite T250

[thegreendragon]

The Peerless service manuals for the model 56 V-8 engine---1916 thru 1924 call for 600 steam cylinder oil for transmission and rear end.  I have been using this for 60 years with no problems---other than the spots on my driveway

 RHL

 

[cahartley]

I don't know how many of you have tried pouring real 600W oil but even on a warm day it's THICK.......  

[Spinneyhill]

4 minutes ago, cahartley said:

I don't know how many of you have tried pouring real 600W oil but even on a warm day it's THICK.......  

 

That is because it is made to lubricate in super-heated steam, which is a bit above water boiling point. It is often thickened by adding fat.

[Spinneyhill]

Penrite T250 is designed for EARLY gearboxes and differentials. If your vehicle doesn't fit within the described applications, don't use it.

 

It says it "can be used in older style of hypoid gear sets". I don't know what "older style" means so would do some research before using it. It says "can be used", not "suitable for" or "designed for" those gear sets, which to me means it is OK but better products are available. It does say it will not attack any metals, so the copper strip corrosion test probably isn't required (no EP additives).

 

It is from Oz and NZ where "veteran" and "vintage" have a meaning. In our club, veteran = up to end of 1918, vintage = up to end of 1930. I would not put it in my 1930 Dodge 8 without a bit more research. The car has a hypoid differential and I think at least 1st and 2nd gears are spur cut.

 

I think another thing to remember is that loads in the vehicles it is designed for were low - they were mostly low powered vehicles. With increasing power and heavier vehicles came increased loads on the gears and the search for ways to handle those loads in the oil film was well underway in the '20s. EP additives followed.

[cahartley]

600 Super is steam oil.

I used that too in a Case steam engine I once had.

Still have some left.......great stuff.

[Akstraw]

In the book "Understanding Your Brass Car", Harold Sharon gives a brief, but good discussion of this, saying that 90/140EP works well.  He also notes that damage to bronze bushings is not a concern at temperatures below 300 F.

[C Carl]

Spinney' I see that your young and facil brain excels at not only science , but semantics ! I always immediately turn to any postings of yours , along with those of the also young energetic and generous true gentleman , Matt Harwood , old guys Rusty , J.V. , grimy George , and so many others - I honor you in categorizing you among them. I think in this case however , you may have dusted off the ol' dissecting microscope and split a few hairs. Perhaps even with an ultramicrotome. Penrite 250 sounds 'bout right to me. I use Penrite lubricants in various applications. Hypoid loads loads are more demanding than spur loads. The latter are basically line loads , hypoid has a significant sliding component. Therefore E.P. necessities. Your grasp of viscosity concerns appears to me to be the most sophisticated of all participants yet. I would like to further consult with you in order to brew up the definitive crashbox lube. Perhaps a base 140W synthetic gearlube , tempered up with some type of grease , also boosted and flattened with STP or some other V.I. Improver. Maybe end up with a 175W/350 ? What do you think , esteemed professor ? (Or any other of you gifted wizards)  I mean : some of my old '20s manuals call for grease , tempered with kerosene for Winter ! Come on ! That's ridiculous ! We are well into the 21st century now ! The collective intellect and huge laboratory of our combined rolling testbeds can probably take this to a slightly higher level. Just wondering about the effect of an unusually high concentration of V.I. improver in a crashbox. Enough for now. I have a lady waiting for me to eat the mustard and collard greens she is cooking.  - Carl

[Spinneyhill]

Carl, short answer, why bother? There are some excellent oils on the market and a bit of attention to the Copper Strip Corrosion Test result (if necessary) will find a suitable one. I don't understand why people want grease in their gear boxes. If you have an early car with a layshaft gear that stops in some gears, then perhaps a thicker oil will help get it turning when you want to use it.

 

It seems you are trying to match the "brewing techniques" of the '20's when the oils were pretty basic. They hadn't developed viscosity improvement additives or much to take very high pressures so they tried to make something. My reading is that most base stock oils are about SAE 30 and their performance and viscosity is achieved by adding compounds to them. Personally, I find 85-90W/140 is OK in my 1930 Dodge; changing is easy when it is cold, difficult when warming up and easy when hot once you learn the technique.

 

Where do you find information about STP oil treatment? Hmm. The STP web site is useless. It is marketed as an engine oil additive and includes "ZDDP" or zinc alkyl dithiophosphate. The MSDS (available from the parent company web site) says its viscosity is 3150 cSt @ 40°C, which is nearly 4 times that of the top of the SAE 140 range (about 800 cSt @ 40°C), but the 100°C viscosity is not given. Hmmm. This site says the viscosity of STP 4-cyl engine oil treatment is 110 @ 100°C, which is about 2.5 times the minimum SAE 250 viscosity.  https://www.whatsinproducts.com/files/brands_pdf/03027158 MSDS STP 4 CYLINDER OIL TREATMENT.pdf

 

The question is, how much to add and what is the result? You will never know. Some authors say it adds about 10 SAE units to the viscosity, so why bother adding it to a gear oil, for which it is not designed?

 

I am sorry, I am not familiar with your terminology: "temper" an oil with some type of grease? "boosted and fattened with STP"?

 

I am sorry, I am a skeptic as to why STP and other admixtures are needed at all when you use a synthetic oil. Why not use an SAE 250 from way up the scale (the minimum is 41 cSt @ 100°C and there is no maximum viscosity) if you want something really thick? 

 

I shall be doing some more reading on this, particularly on the Viscosity Index.

 

Later: the VI of Penrite T250, asked about above, is about 113. The VI of STP seems to be 102. No increase in VI if use STP!

Edited September 16, 2016 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Durant Mike]

The Durant owners manuals for most of the Durant Motors made cars that have Continental engines say to use 600w also known as steam oil for the transmissions of their cars.

[Spinneyhill]

I expect steam oil was used because it was the most developed and best oil technology back then - steam had been in use for over a hundred years. Only in the late '20s and '30s did automotive oil catch up with and supersede steam oil for automotive use. I don't for one moment believe steam oil has better wear etc. characteristics in an automotive gearbox than a contemporary (synthetic) oil developed for automotive use.

[lozrocks]

On 9/15/2016 at 7:22 PM, C Carl said:

 

Yes , Matt , 90 is 90 , noise , of course can be worn internals. Try going to a multi grade synthetic gear lube like 85-90/140. Always heed well Dr. Spinneyhills advice. He is a well trained and thorough researcher. Old gear jammers trick on synchronized transmissions : when selecting unsynchronized first or reverse , first place gearshift in a synchronized gear , and then quickly drop into first or reverse. Try it. For frustrated crashbox owners without a clutch brake , one technique in certain situations is to select reverse before a quick change to first. Still will grind into reverse , but you are using the relatively lesser used reverse gear faces sacrificially. There is more , but it is late , and I have to drive home and sleep. I am driving a 7 speed automatic this time.  -  Good night , Carl

Actually, that's not quite correct. The method used to measure the viscosity of oils has changed twice in the past century. And there is no comparison chart available between the standards. A 90W from 1940 may or may not be the same as a 90W oil from 2016. We do know that the heavy steam oils 300W and above changed quite dramatically.

[lozrocks]

On 8/21/2016 at 1:32 PM, DavidAU said:

Does anyone know what this grade of gear oil would be for a 1920's gearbox or can suggest what would be a suitable replacement?  I have tried Google and cannot find anything.

 

The lubricant for the gearbox should be black gear oil and soft grease mixed or Ambroleum. It is necessary to examine the gearbox about every 1,000 miles to ascertain if the lubricant is to the correct level which should just cover the layshaft gears.

More information required. The answer differs between 1920 and 1929 and between Ford and Dodge.

I use modern 140W oil in my gearbox. It never crunches between gears, cold or hot, and I have no difficulty changes gears.

Edited September 17, 2016 by lozrocks (see edit history)

[C Carl]

Spinney' , it seems that the bell curves of "shiftability" for our respective cars are inverted with respect to each other. Yours shifting better at the extremes*. My cars often enjoy many hours fully warmed up. I would like a bit more ease in this realm. Cold ? Yeah , if not at the expense of hot. Therefore , examining possibilities of altering temp/viscosity curves. My use of "temper" stems from my optical fabrication days. We were taught to "temper" optical polishing lap grade pitch with beeswax. This would alter the flow characteristics of the lap to allow it to conform better , trim better , and give the desired finish quality. This may indeed not translate to altering the flow characteristics of lubricants. Sorry. Perhaps I should break out Websters 2nd. to nip in the bud potential vectors of future embarrassment.

 

Loz' , what gearbox are you shifting graciously* with 140W ? Synthetic ? Also , if I may borrow Spinney's semanticist hat for a moment : 90wt gear oil for Matt's '41 Bu' "may or may not" be the same now as then. Therefore it is or is not , and should be ascertained. Perhaps in due course Spinney's diligent ongoing research will reveal an answer. Never sell short his academic prowess. He has a Ph.D or two , rare , though not unique in these realms. The old (and new) engineers , old machinists (always better old than new) , highly skilled mechanics and gifted restorers (both amateur and professional) , academicians , and long time practitioners of our fascinating hobby , etc. form a collective brain which seldom says "never". Neither sell short OUR joint capabilities.

 

*n.b. : Speaking of capabilities , shifting technique and experience may vary. It occurs to me that one viscosity grade may not fit all.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by C Carl (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

I had a thought while doing the ironing. Just because steam oil was the most suitable in 1925 in no way means it is the most suitable today. Oil technology has moved a long way since the '20s.

 

I have been unable to find out what an "early hypoid" gear set was and how it differs from a later hypoid gear set. I would be on the safe side and just say hypoid gears need EP oil. The Hypoid gear was invented in 1923 (well, that is what the newspaper said in the obit. about its inventor) and Packard were first to offer it in 1923.

 

Tooth loads are significantly higher in hypoid gear sets than in spiral bevel or worm gears and EP additives were developed for them. Once EP oils went into service, the race was on to develop something that did not attack "yellow" metal - it might have been a slow race because they just told people to change the oil often and made more money from them!

 

All sources I have seen say gear oil viscosity should be chosen in relation to tooth loads, operating conditions and climate. Heavier, more powerful vehicles need higher viscosity oil because the gear tooth loads are higher than in lighter, less powerful vehicles. Warmer climes also require a higher viscosity and vice versa. There was even mention in Dyke's 1930 that some need higher viscosity to reduce leakage, depending on the engineering (presumably that means how well gearbox and diff. housing mating surfaces were made and how many bolts they had with one end in the oil and the other in the air).

 

Finding a source that discusses older vehicles is difficult. I find oil companies unreliable. They make and market products to meet a market, which often wants inappropriate products due to lack of knowledge. It is more profitable to take their money than to spend money educating them.

 

 

 

[C Carl]

Reduce leaks , uh huh. Had a '73 Cad with a leaking pinion seal. Loaded up with 85-90W/140 in place of the spec'd 90. Cheap easy fix . I am trying to wrap my head around worm gear loading. Is there less loading because of more shared contact in a properly set up worm drive ?  -  Carl

[C Carl]

4 hours ago, C Carl said:

Reduce leaks , uh huh. Had a '73 Cad with a leaking pinion seal. Loaded up with 85-90W/140 in place of the spec'd 90. Cheap easy fix . I am trying to wrap my head around worm gear loading. Is there less loading because of more shared contact in a properly set up worm drive ?  Perhaps some old gear hobber will chime in.  -  Carl

 

[C Carl]

Hmmmmmm , a bit of redundancy to my edit. It does occur to me , as I might have posted earlier , that E.P. necessities are less a function of tooth loading per se , than that accruing from the SLIDING component of hypoid contact. A hypoid is a hybrid between a spiral bevel , and a worm drive , which also needs E.P. , iirc. IS this correct ? FWIW , do we need an engineer , or the wished for 'hobber to step forth ? Perhaps not , as I will try to study up in my various editions of "Marks'" when I can. You info tech wizards will probably beat me to it , though. As always so far past my bedtime , probably making little sense. At long last today , good night.  - Carl