1935 Mercedes 500K stolen by American service man returned to owner's family

[Rusty_OToole]

This 500K roadster, one of 29 built, has been returned to the family of the original owner and may soon be sold. Value estimated at $6 million.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3721823/Magnificent-Mercedes-Roadster-stolen-Allies-imprisoned-German-industrialist-WWII-returned-family-set-sell-6m.html

[60FlatTop]

Interesting, I would enjoy seeing the detailed provenance on that car from 1945 forward. There must be one big Oops! in there where due diligence was side stepped. The value certainly made a compelling case for the lawyers to pursue it.

 

The timing isn't bad. Three weeks ago I bought a 1958 Austin-Healey Sprite last registered in 1965 and sold to a friend of mine in 1969. I found the people associated with the paperwork and licensed the car in order to have it legally in my name before spending the second nickel even thought it is a major project car. I got the plates and proof of ownership last Thursday.

 

Six million or three thousand, one really needs to make the effort to establish ownership. How many are sitting on decades long restoration projects without personal proof of ownership? Out of the 300 jobs associated with the restoration is that one #300?

Bernie

[padgett]

Note that this happened because the car was sold and was being shown in Germany.

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

Note that this happened because the car was sold and was being shown in Germany.

 

No, it happened because someone stole the dude's car as spoils of war.

 

Now whether being a Nazi sympathizer entitles you to any sympathy from me is something different, but the guy was imprisoned and his car was stolen, passed around for 60 years, with a lot of folks making money off it, and finally his family had a legal method of getting it back. The courts agreed that they had a case and seized the car when they were legally able to do so, and gave it back to them. Now they're sending it to auction to turn it into cash.

 

I'm actually more concerned about the Dutch "owner." I suspect that he will be suing the previous owner from whom he bought it (as well as the auction company that provided the venue), who will sue the previous owner, and so forth, until it's a giant multi-million-dollar tug-of-war over a big pile of money between two dozen litigants. The first act will be to file some kind of injunction to stop the car from going to auction in September. I also believe that if that fails, the car won't sell or will sell for a lot less than expected because any new owner will surely realize that previous owner(s) will be coming after the car somehow or another and he'll have to spend the rest of his life defending himself from them. It's tainted now and until this gets sorted out, nobody's going to want it, as lovely as it is.

 

I'm not sure how to feel about this, but the Dutch owner is only the first person who is going to get royally screwed by this and it kind of feels like a money grab by the heirs who are already undoubtedly quite wealthy.

 

On the other hand, if they were Jews recovering property from descendants of Nazis, how would we feel then? This is really ugly and makes me sad.

[8E45E]

48 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I also believe that if that fails, the car won't sell or will sell for a lot less than expected because any new owner will surely realize that previous owner(s) will be coming after the car somehow or another and he'll have to spend the rest of his life defending himself from them. It's tainted now and until this gets sorted out, nobody's going to want it, as lovely as it is.

 

I'm not sure how to feel about this, but the Dutch owner is only the first person who is going to get royally screwed by this and it kind of feels like a money grab by the heirs who are already undoubtedly quite wealthy.

 

On the other hand, if they were Jews recovering property from descendants of Nazis, how would we feel then? This is really ugly and makes me sad.

War is a terrible thing!

 

Craig

[trimacar]

Matt, I agree with you that this is a mess, and the car is now tainted as you say.  Tain't nobodies, maybe one would say.

 

Prym, the imprisoned, was an industry owner during World War II, and one of his main products was brass and copper goods.  In all probability, he was thus making shells for ammo, and as such wasn't really an innocent bystander.

 

Spoils of War is defined  by the government as follows:

 

"According to 50 USCS § 2204 [Title 50. War and National Defense; Chapter 39. Spoils of War], spoils of war means enemy movable property lawfully captured, seized, confiscated, or found which has become United States property in accordance with the laws of war."

 

Thus, it was movable property, seized by the United States (or a member thereof, which may stretch the definition) from a Nazi industrialist.  Seems pretty straightforward that it no longer would belong to the Prym family.

 

Obviously, the value made the family go after it,  if it was "sentimental value" then they wouldn't be selling it.  Even rich families always want more money......

 

 As a side note, there are websites devoted to documenting Spoils of War brought back from battles, but of course most of these items are flags, knives, guns, virtually impossible to trace and not worth the effort of a family to try to find.....

[8E45E]

18 minutes ago, trimacar said:

Prym, the imprisoned, was an industry owner during World War II, and one of his main products was brass and copper goods.  In all probability, he was thus making shells for ammo, and as such wasn't really an innocent bystander.

ALL German companies got 'liberated' from their owners, be it family owned, or a stockholder owned company and belonged to the Nazi government for that period of time.  Even GM lost Adam Opel for a time during the war.  It is open to debate whether Mr. Prym himself supported the war effort or not, and may never be solved.  I recall in 1986. one classic car magazine did a nice, full report on the 100th Anniversary of Mercedes Benz.  Apparently, the author got too detailed in the activities at DBAG during the second world war years, and received a nasty, terse letter from them explaining his reporting, although factual and true, made it clear it was NOT their will to be making weapons of war during that time, and was a dark spot in their history that they did not want to be remember for.

 

Craig 

[5219]

From the vantage point of 1986, it is very easy for the Daimler Benz company to say that they didn't support the war since it is highly unlikely that any of their top people in 1986 were working there in 1940.

 

False piety is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

[Rusty_OToole]

The article makes it plain that the original owner was not a Nazi and was never a member of the Nazi party. His family had been in the business of manufacturing zippers, brass buttons, and other articles for many years. During the war they made zippers, buttons,  turbine blades and other articles for the military. I think it is obvious they had no choice in whether to cooperate with their government or not.

 

The car was never confiscated as spoils of war. It was taken by an American soldier for his personal use and eventually shipped to the US where it was sold in the civilian market.

 

Years later when the car was bought by a Dutchman and returned to Europe a descendant of the original owner recognized it and made a legal claim. This claim was upheld by the courts and the car returned to the owner's family.

 

I have heard of similar cases in the US where stolen Mustangs and Corvettes were returned to the original owner after 20 or 30 years because the former owner kept the registration documents and police report of the theft and thus could prove the car was stolen.

 

In those cases the person who bought the car in good faith lost out same as any receiver of stolen goods. I don't know if insurance would cover such a loss.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[8E45E]

3 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

I have heard of similar cases in the US where stolen Mustangs and Corvettes were returned to the original owner after 20 or 30 years because the former owner kept the registration documents and police report of the theft and thus could prove the car was stolen.

Me too!

 

Here is just one of them: http://www.sportscarmarket.com/news/the-saga-of-a-stolen-shelby

 

Craig

[60FlatTop]

The big oops where due diligence was side stepped, like the company legal officer who could have filled out a chit declaring it spoils of war and selling it to the soldier. Screw up number one.

 

Then 60 years of "Where did that car come from?" "Um, a guy brought it back from Germany." "Legally?" "I would assume so." "Oh, OK, then. I'll take it."

 

You know, one of the problems with growing up in 1950's America is that you were taught to recognize when you did something wrong. Now it's all muddied in legal issues even though they know it's wrong.

Sometimes a word like "conniver" just doesn't get used as often as it should. Seeing a situation of turning the blind eye is a good reality check. Maybe that collection of misfits that dominated TV for two weeks last month could have learned something. ALL OF THEM.

Bernie

Edited August 4, 2016 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[8E45E]

5 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

You know, one of the problems with growing up in 1850's America is that you were taught to recognize when you did something wrong. Now it's all muddied in legal issues even though they know it's wrong.

In this instance, this car was stolen from the rightful owner, and rightfully got returned to the family.  What they do with it is their business, and it appears they already know what their grandpa's old Mercedes is worth without having to inquire on a vintage car forum; unlike many others who inherit their grandfather's old car and are disappointed its not a goldmine.

 

I hope the museum that currently owns the Brooke Swan Car is reading this!   If they try and enter it in a car show in India, it will be seized as it was declared a 'national treasure' and was subsequently smuggled out of that country. 

 

Craig 

 

[trimacar]

I've always wondered about how a soldier gets a car returned during a war.  There has to be a ton of paperwork, and doesn't the military itself ship the car back to the states?  There was a lot of this going on, apparently.

 

The Germans do everything they can to ignore the fact that the war even happened.  The Japanese do also, to some degree, but when I traveled there on business, there were a lot of references to the atomic bombs, from crossword puzzle clues (ion Japanese newspapers but printed in English) to articles in the paper about the variety of cherry tree only grown in one town and "lost in the event".

 

If, indeed, the car was taken in a wrongful manner, then it's good the family got it back, but I still agree with Matt, what a mess, and a mess that will follow the car because of the money involved.....

[padgett]

Bottom line: we do not really know what happened 60 years ago so everything is a guess. All we know is that a German court decided in favor of a German family. Agree, that car will forever be clouded.

 

ps when I brought a BSA Lightning back from SEA I had to demonstrate a clear title to get it shipped.

Edited August 4, 2016 by padgett (see edit history)

[alsancle]

18 minutes ago, padgett said:

 Agree, that car will forever be clouded.

 

To the contrary, this car now is 100% clear as far as title issues go.  Years ago there was a lawyer in California who would call any owner of a expensive prewar German car (mostly Mercedes) and try to get the chassis number.  He represented Jewish families who's cars had been stolen before, during and after the war.   Probably 90% of the 500k/540k Mercedes that were in the U.S.A in the 1950s came back with servicemen.   Any one of those could have a potentially scary title situation.

[Amphicar BUYER]

9 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

I have heard of similar cases in the US where stolen Mustangs and Corvettes were returned to the original owner after 20 or 30 years because the former owner kept the registration documents and police report of the theft and thus could prove the car was stolen.

 

In those cases the person who bought the car in good faith lost out same as any receiver of stolen goods. I don't know if insurance would cover such a loss.

 

I personally had a 1966 Cadillac rag top that was stolen. Returned to me a year later. It even had a new state of Co title. As the car was mine before it was stolen, it and all parts and work put into it was still mine no matter who "owned" it or whether or not I had registration and paperwork. The car was mine when it was stolen, still mine even though it was sold 3 times, still mine even with a new state issued title. The last guy who paid for a title search and did all the correct legal stuff to obtain a new title had a issue withe the sate. I do not know how that turned out. I know when he tried to sue me for the work he put into the car, the court said no matter what, the car, it's components and all associated labor was still mine.

[Rusty_OToole]

I don't know how they did things in the forties but I have relatives in the military. In the 1960s an uncle who served in Germany, got all his household goods shipped to Canada free of charge including a new Rover sedan. One of the perks of being in the military, is you could buy foreign cars cheap (I think they had some tax free deal) and the government would ship them home for you. He wanted a Mercedes but waited too late to buy it, so he bought a Rover because he could get immediate delivery.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

One thing that strikes me in the story- They say it was stolen but we don't know what the US army guy actually did. He may have been a private or a general. He may have done everything properly with paper work and it was really a spoils of war. Maybe the plant owner was not a member of the Nazi party but he was a German national and we were in a declared war with all of Germany not just Nazi's. A lot of non nazi Germans killed a lot of drafted GI's some that may have gone to war willingly and some that may not have wanted too but did because their country was at war.  I agree it's a mess but we need Paul Harvey to give us the rest of the story if it's possible to figure out.  

Edited August 4, 2016 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

I recall another story from an old car magazine. It was about a Mercedes roadster that was 'liberated' (stolen) from a factory owner at the end of the war. The officer who took it, had it painted olive drab in a German body shop for a couple of cartons of cigarettes and had a motor pool sergeant paint an official looking number on the hood.

 

After driving it around for a few months he got called into his CO's office. First question, how do you come to be driving around in a German car with no paperwork and the registration number of a Sherman tank painted on the hood. Before you answer that  I see your tour of duty has 4 more months to go. If you want to go home tomorrow leave the car in my parking space with the keys in the ignition.

 

This may have been the same car.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

I expect the former owner did everything he could to keep such an expensive car. His lawyers would have known to search the US military records for the car. If it turned out the car had been legally seized there would be a record of it, and a record of its disposal. Then it would be a matter of tracing the chain of ownership down to the present time.

 

That brings up another question. What did the military do with surplus vehicles and equipment in Germany? Was it sold at auction the way they do in the US?

Edited August 4, 2016 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

2 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

I expect the former owner did everything he could to keep such an expensive car. His lawyers would have known to search the US military records for the car. If it turned out the car had been legally seized there would be a record of it, and a record of its disposal. Then it would be a matter of tracing the chain of ownership down to the present time.

 

That brings up another question. What did the military do with surplus vehicles and equipment in Germany? Was it sold at auction the way they do in the US?

 

 

Oh, I'm quite certain the family has known where it was for many years. They couldn't do anything about it, but I'm sure there were letters written that previous owners quietly disregarded, especially at sale time. The only reason they now have it is because they finally had a mechanism by which they could seize it. If the Dutch owner hadn't taken it to Germany, he'd still have it in his possession and they'd still be trying to get it back. It was a rare opportunity for them to get it legally without having to ask the current "owner" to turn it over (which, of course, he wouldn't have done).

 

This is the kind of car whose whereabouts and history are well documented. A bunch of people whose names are on that ownership list are about to get sued by a Dutchman...

 

 

 

[8E45E]

The seizure of it was in April, 2012.  http://www.mercedesheritage.com/2012/04/rm-1935-500k-seized-in-germany/    

 

The unsuspecting Dutch 'owner' must have lost the case (or perhaps accepted some kind of settlement), or it could not now be put up for auction.

 

Craig

[Matt Harwood]

At lunch today I spent my time doing quite a bit of additional reading on this, because I find it fascinating from both a hobby standpoint and as a professional in the industry. The ramifications are significant and it's the kind of thing that could affect my business.

 

The car's whereabouts apparently weren't known until the 1970s, when it appeared in collector Russel Strauch's possession, but since then it's changed hands several times. The German Prym family's lawyers have been trying since it surfaced in 1976 to get it back, always arguing that it was stolen. Of course, the family of the guy who brought it back from Germany in 1945 is claiming he bought it from the Prym family, but most sources seem to discount that idea, including the Pryms themselves (the actual owner of the car died in 1965). It was likely taken as spoils of war and nobody really cared. It was an old car, it was war, and it was the Nazis. Nobody was going to look too hard at this one.

 

HOWEVER, the fact that the Prym family has known about it since the '70s and has been contacting subsequent "owners" in an attempt to get it back makes it very likely that the Dutch owner (a well-known large collector named Frans van Haren) will have plenty of recourse, because previous owners will surely have known about the Prym family and the ownership question--my guess is that the Prym family's lawyer will offer his firm's files on the case to interested parties and I can promise you that there are letters dating to 1976 in there. If the receipt of these letters by the "owners" was not disclosed to future buyers, then there's fraud involved, too. There is talk in some areas that it's not merely a civil matter, but perhaps a criminal one, depending on who knew what and when. Most of the original actors are dead and you can't prosecute heirs, but it is apparently not a secret that the Prym family wanted the car returned and were making motions to get it back for decades. Not disclosing that situation is a pretty material omission in the sale of such a valuable property.

 

As a professional, my guess here is that RM Auctions, who sold the car to van Haren in 2015, will simply give him his money back (with interest) and either eat it themselves or try to sue the consignor who sold it through their Monterey 2015 auction. Depending on who that person is, of course. My gut says they'll eat it in the interest of keeping two big, wealthy, influential, surely repeat customers happy. And, after all, the $3.7 million that van Haren paid is about 10% of what RM will earn in commissions next week at Monterey alone, so it's not like it's a HUGE hit for them to just sweep it under the rug and walk away. It also cleanses the car and permits it to return to circulation unharmed. I would bet a steak dinner that there are discussions with Bonham's about some financial remuneration to make that happen in time for their September auction in Paris. As I said, the car will sell more easily and for more money if there's no possibility of legal hassles in the future. A clean break, it seems, is the best way to make that happen and the auction companies are obviously the ones with the greatest interest in making that happen.

 

That last part is just speculation on my part, but I'm pretty confident that's how it'll go down. It'll be quiet, there won't be articles, but the car's pedigree will be patched up with some cash and it'll go on to fame and fortune somewhere else. Van Haren will grumble a bit, but he was already trying to sell it--he bought well under market price last year--so he was simply flipping it. He didn't lose an heirloom he waited his whole life to own. It's a money thing to him, too. So in this case, some money will fix the whole thing.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

If tax was collected at each sale would state and federal governments be responsible for returning that portion of the sale with interest? They would appear to be accessories in the benefits of stolen goods. Ignorance of the theft would not be much of a defense. They sure like to get their mitts in for their cut on every sale.

Bernie

[Digger914]

Don't know German title law, but the question that comes to my mind is; did the owner ever report the car stolen, because stolen is always stolen, but stolen does have to be reported.

From reading the short story, the original owner died in 1965, just 20 short years after the car was taken from his possession, lawfully or not and whether or not a complaint was made for reparations and whether or not there was any adjudication is not mentioned.  

That cars are stolen everyday and sold with a quick vin number change and bogus titles leave the good faith owner SOL when something happens to expose the fraud.  

That the VIN wasn't changed, that it could be traced through years of ownership and that it was stolen didn't seem to become a question until the car was noticed as a valuable classic in 1970, gives the impression that this was initially a straight up legal deal.

 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

The original story says the owner was sore as hell when his car was taken, without his permission and when he was out of town but fat chance of getting it back from a soldier in the army of occupation. If it was officially confiscated there would be some record of it in military records. They don't lose track of things like that. If you sign for a pair of boots and lose them you have some explaining to do. Never mind a vehicle.

[60FlatTop]

Legal is legal, weighing good judgement is no longer an option. Hadn't you seen they took the Lady's scales?

 

There is a chance of a similar occurrence if an army of occupation takes over the Great Lakes to gain the water rights, just for debt repayment security, you know.. Sometimes I ride along the Lake Ontario State Parkway thinking how close we really are to seeing tank tracks tearing up the landscape. There are only two major fresh water supplies left and only one has a proposed energy pipeline adjacent. Good infrastructure for water, as well.

Someone from the opposing side snags a Z06 out of a garage in Buffalo and the cycle starts again.

Bernie

Edited August 4, 2016 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

34 minutes ago, Digger914 said:

Don't know German title law, but the question that comes to my mind is; did the owner ever report the car stolen, because stolen is always stolen, but stolen does have to be reported.

From reading the short story, the original owner died in 1965, just 20 short years after the car was taken from his possession, lawfully or not and whether or not a complaint was made for reparations and whether or not there was any adjudication is not mentioned.  

That cars are stolen everyday and sold with a quick vin number change and bogus titles leave the good faith owner SOL when something happens to expose the fraud.  

That the VIN wasn't changed, that it could be traced through years of ownership and that it was stolen didn't seem to become a question until the car was noticed as a valuable classic in 1970, gives the impression that this was initially a straight up legal deal.

 

 

 

Read what I wrote. Its whereabouts weren't known until the 1970s, at which point the family started trying to get it back. Rather than suggesting a proper sale to the soldier, the fact that it was out of sight seems to suggest that someone was lying low with the car until the money was just too much to resist. Or maybe they thought the heat would be off by then. Or, quite possibly they were specifically waiting for the 30-year statute of limitations to expire (1945-1976)... Or maybe they just didn't care, I don't know.

What I do know is that in the immediate post-war period, Germany was in total chaos. There was no functioning government, the Weimar Republic was long gone, and nobody wanted the Nazis running the show, least of all the US and Russia. The cities were reduced to rubble and people were still starving in the streets. Russia was annexing huge chunks of territory. Do you really think there was a police officer willing or even able to take a stolen vehicle report, especially one involving an occupying military force, the one who was essentially running the country at that time? Do you think that report should or would still exist? There was no money, no food, no shelter, no government, so I'm guessing that even if Prym tried to find a way to report it, absolutely nobody was listening and if he went to the Americans, they probably told the old Nazi to shut up and GTFO. Yes, stolen is stolen, but at this point, it's actually an irrelevant part of the plot. A lot seems to hinge on whether the car was stolen, seized, or sold, but the truth is, the question is really whether previous "owners" in the US knew about the Prym "problem" and simply ignored it, passing it on to new owners. THAT is the crux of all the legal issues that will follow from here. Whether Herr Prym filed a police report isn't really relevant to all that, especially since the courts have already ruled in the Prym family's favor, deciding that it was indeed stolen. What happens now is simply figuring out who knew what and when and what their responsibilities are to subsequent owners. A stolen vehicle report is neither damnation nor vindication at this point.

 

There's $3.7 million missing from someone's pocket. The only real question now is who will be in charge of putting it back? If it gets put back, the car is clean. If not, the next owner should expect to fight some legal battles to keep it and the car stays dirty. And there are two auction companies in it up to their eyeballs in the whole thing. Think about it...

[8E45E]

I wonder if the big auction houses are insured for losses such as this.  I bet they are.

 

Craig

[capngrog]

What a great thread!  Mystery, Nazis, intrigue, war, legal shenanigans, thievery, beautiful rare car; it has it all.  With that said and from just reading some of the linked articles, I think that the cheese and the fish have been left too long in the sun of Denmark.  To wit, this excerpt from the Daily Mail .com article of August, 2016:

 

"It was bought by Mr Prym in 1936 and during the war years he hid it from the Nazis on his estate on Stolberg, near Cologne. He got his caretaker, Franz Wagemann, to guard it while he was in prison." 

 

Mr. Prym was jailed after the conclusion of WWII.  One can assume his imprisonment was due to crimes committed during the war (war crimes?), for which various penalties were assessed by the victorious Allies.  These penalties generally ran the gamut from fines, to forfeiture of property, to the death penalty.  From the  cited article, it is not clear what, if any, penalties were assessed against Mr. Pym; however, it is not beyond the realm of possibility (speculation on my part) that Mr. Pym had to forfeit certain of his property as a result of his conviction.  It is then possible (more speculation here), that Mr. Pym instructed his trusty caretaker, Franz Wagemann, to hide his treasured Mercedes, not from the nasty Nazis, but from the oafish Americans.  AHA!  How about that spin?  Furthermore, Herr Wagemann could have decided to sell the Mercedes to an oafish American G.I. to enrich his coffers ... or to help meet expenses of Mr. Prym's estate.  More spin, intrigue, mystery and clouded motives!   A "relatively valid" receipt could have been tendered by the trusted Herr Wagemann to the oafish but naive American G.I. purchaser, thus allowing export of the "hot"  (in more ways than one) vehicle to the U.S. of A.

 

 From the Mercedes Heritage article of April 2012: ” My sources say the ownership dispute has been ongoing for 20 years and is known in 500/540k circles."   This would lead one to believe that Mr. Prym's heirs' claim of ownership of the Mercedes was not sufficiently robust so as to allow seizure of the car on the international stage.  The car was seized only after it had been returned to German soil, a tragic example of German -  Dutch enmity, even in this era of "United Europe" (EU).  Here is the account of the Grabbing Germans' seizure of the innocent Dutchman's prized car as described in the Mercedes Heritage article:

 

"Dutch collector, Frans van Haren, purchased the supercharged roadster at RM Auction Monterey in August 2011 for $3.767 million, well below its pre-auction estimate of $4m – $5m. Wishing to share the car with European enthusiasts, van Haren shipped the car to the massive German Techno Classica classic automobile show the second week of April. What was intended to be a celebration of his recent acquisition turned into a nightmare for van Haren when German police seized the car in accordance with the original owner’s heirs claim of ownership."

 

This entire incident of emergent Teutonic Tintinnabulation obviously sowed the seeds of discontent, disarray, dismay and disunity within the European Union (EU) and may have been what caused Britain to exit the European Union (EU).

 

Do what you wish with this here-to-fore secret, closely-held information.

 

Cheers,

Grog

           P.S.  I'm not a lawyer, I just like to embellish the truth ... oh, wait ...  Never mind.

[alsancle]

I'm going to guess there is a settlement between everybody involved and that selling the car is all part of the deal.  I will stand by my statement that at this point this car's title is clear even if the story is not.

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, capngrog said:

This entire incident of emergent Teutonic Tintinnabulation ...

 

Wow, Cap 'n Grog is a deep thinker, 

and good with vocabulary too.

I haven't thought about the details enough

to form a valid opinion.  But you're right about

the interesting topic.  Someone could write a 

book about it once it gets resolved!

[Digger914]

I agree, Cap 'n Grog is a deep thinker and I had considered a portion of his speculation.

 

I also considered that if the car had been hidden to avoid forfeiture, that the former owner would have been PO'ed upon learning of it's discovery and seizure, Plenty of cases in our courts today concerning seizure of vehicles, haven't yet seen an appellant brief  where the concealed property was reported stolen after its discovery and seizure.

 

I also agree with Rusty OTool "If it was officially confiscated there would be some record of it in military records" and the item seized would have been carefully documented as Car, Mercedes, Convertible and maybe even the color. 

 

I also agree with Mat Harwood as he nails it down tight with "the question is really whether previous "owners" in the US knew about the Prym "problem" and simply ignored it, passing it on to new owners" I have to disagree with whether or not Herr Prym ever reported a theft is relevant as it became tremendously relevant when the German Judge set aside 'black and white' written German law and ruled against the Dutch owner in the Prym family's favor.

 

It could be wonderful if GrossPapa's "stolen" auto was returned to his family, but the story links I read leave me wondering.

 

[60FlatTop]

Just thinking; if I had been sitting in prison for a number of years and found someone had stolen MY car, one letter with the address circled in red, starting "Dear Sir, upon arriving home from prison where, I, a convicted criminal, myself, spent years with thieves, cut throats, and murderers, discovered that you are now in possession of this car, and at the address highlighted on the envelope, I hope this letter finds you well.. I would like to discuss a couple of options...."

Who needs to spend all that money on lawyers?

Bernie

[Rusty_OToole]

Lots of prominent civilians were jailed after the war until their wartime activities could be investigated then they were released. This happened to Ferdinand Porsche and Louis Renault the owner of the Renault company and many others. If you were rich, a public official or had an important job it was into the klink and guilty until proven innocent.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

Not sure about current regs but when we were stationed overseas with the USN years ago, the Navy could issue a "military title" for a vehicle to permit it being exported out of the country.  That title could then be used to retitle the vehicle anywhere in the USA.   When we bought our 1935 Morris in Scotland it came with the traditional British "Log-Book" which was a very historic document, listing all prior owners of the car since new.  Knowing  we would have to surrender that upon retitling it here in the USA we obtained a "Military Title" for the car using just a sales receipt for purchase price.  It was very easy and simple.  When we shipped the car back to the USA we went to our home state and using the Military Title we had it retitled with no problems or questions.  the only check needed was to verify the VIN/Serial number was correct on the new title.  I knew of quite a few people who bought (or found) old cars there, used the  Military Title regulation and shipped cars home and obtained titles in their home states.  it was not difficult and completely legal.  There was never any concern that a car might be stolen as far as I knew.

Terry

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Lots of prominent civilians were jailed after the war until their wartime activities could be investigated then they were released. This happened to Ferdinand Porsche and Louis Renault the owner of the Renault company and many others. If you were rich, a public official or had an important job it was into the klink and guilty until proven innocent.

As was Hans Ledwinka, Tatra engineer.  He was captured by the Germans and put to work on the development of the Volkswagen.  He forfeited any and all 'intellectual property' against his will to the Nazis.  And in his case, it continued under the Soviet government once the war ended.

 

Craig

[540K]

I agree with AlSanCle. The title issue is 100% resolved, and no future owner need worry about defending it. For that reason, I think the car sells big - great story and title that cannot be further questioned. The sale almost has the air of a charity sale - proceeds going to a family victimized 70 years ago.

 

The money issue between van Haren, RM and the consignor is interesting, but it won't affect any future owner.

 

I think one shouldn't lump together all automobiles brought back by servicemen after WWII. They weren't all stolen. I know of a chassis that an American soldier acquired outside of Germany, but that was all that was left of the car after being wrecked during the war. The car's body did not survive at all -- just a twisted chassis and an engine that had a hole through the block. It was described as "wreckage," and was most likely abandoned. By that time it was nothing more than the carcass of an old, used car. By any modern definition of being a total loss with only salvage value, this was it. The wreckage sat for over 30 years before anything was done with it. It is a small miracle that it still exists.

 

I had the story wrong, apparently. I thought the car had been stolen by the Nazis and then taken by American soldiers, but Bonham's says the car was stolen by American soldiers directly from the Prym family. 

Edited August 5, 2016 by 540K (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Craig, I was thinking the same thing about the charity part but it is critical that the family is there representing the car.   I'm gonna guess that everybody involved took a bit of hair cut but that nobody was 100% stuck.

[540K]

General Lyon was the consignor, and, from what very little I know, it is difficult to imagine he would take a haircut without a fight. I can understand RM wanting to keep him happy, particularly if they think there is going to be an Estate sale in the near future. 

 

The catalogs all state that sales are "as is, where is" with no warranties as to condition, provenance, previous ownership, etc. etc. and no obligation to verify information provided by the consignor or third parties.I read somewhere that the Pryms wrote to the new owner each time the car changed hands since the mid-1970's, and perhaps a question of actionable fraud arises. The auction catalog said that the car's history between Prym's purchase and the 1970's was "unknown at this time." Did Lyon or RM intentionally withhold information about the Prym family's claim, or did each previous owner assume the risk with knowledge of their claim?

 

This is undoubtably a significant car - the Berlin Auto Show display car. Could the Prym claim have motivated Lyon to sell?  I guess we'll never know.

 

In American law, the concept of the good faith purchaser for value protects the innocent buyer from the tainted title of the seller.  I believe the theory suggests that all the previous American buyers obtained "good" title and could freely sell the car up until a court repudiated their voidable titles. This may mean that in the musical chairs of passing this car around, the music stopped before van Haren could sell to someone else. I don't know, but I think that does not end the discussion if there was willful concealment of the Prym family's claim. It would be really interesting to know what each party knew or was advised before the auction.  

 

I find it very curious that the German court ruled that the 30-year statute of limitations only began to run when the car returned to German soil. I would have thought there would be some international court process for the Pryms to at least get a judgement, even if it could not be enforced until the car was on German soil. I suppose the court's reasoning was that they had no jurisdiction unless the car was there.